Do the devs really listen to their community?

[MagPrime]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Am I the only Vet that loves the fact that I can log in and slaughter hordes of enemies in supremely entertaining, loot-producing fashion AND watch Netflix in bed with my wife at the same time?

We don’t need an Eve online situation...

Me too, except for the wife part. 

[Helch0rn]

2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

It's a fair response to that sort of comment. 

"Handicap yourself" is not a substitute for a challenging content, and "play with your feet" is an easy extrapolation. It's literally the same thing, a handicap.

what is the difference between a lvl 50 bombard oneshotting an unmodded frame an a lvl 150 bombard oneshotting a fully decked out frame?

higher enemy levels are just handicaps with extra steps and until someone clearly defines what they mean by "challenging content" I will assume they mean what people in the past demanded, and that was high level missions.

so why wait for DE to add another high level mission type, when you can get the same experience with lower levels by removing mods?

[LightZodiac]

7 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

Also to people complaining about "lack of challenge / endgame content" - just watch this video from minute 43 onwards, to around minute 47. Scott does a very good job explaining why its so difficult to implement and why there is no single easy solution.

I did and I do understand him but he acts like somebody else created the system they have, and they can't do anything about it so... that's that.

The "power difference" between players can really be huge, why do we have to have a such system in the first place? Endgame weapos can be +100 times as powerful as unmoded weapons, with such differences in place it's kinda obvious that there will be a huge power difference. On the other hand ability strenght doesn't have such a drastic difference so newbs and veterans are much much closer in the terms of "power difference" in that department.

Some abilities can totally chesee the game... example of that are older bosses which are not immune to abilities. I had a Chroma and Slowa in lvl3 sortie against Jackal... it was over in 2 minutes, the boss fight itself was over in like 10 seconds. Because of the way armor works there is also a big difference in ability to take damage between frames as well as between beginers and veterans.

For endgame player playing 3rd sortie is easier then for beginner playing tutorial.

Newer bosses (Eidolons, Orbs) are on the other hand absolutely immune to abilities, but take full damage from guns buffed by abilities. So most frames are practically useless in the fight, Chroma is the king and cheeses them in really short time but if you buff boss HP to be able to tank some damage from Chroma well congratulations now newbs and casuals will run out of ammo fighting that thing.

Lower said "power difference" and you have a much easier time balancing the content. Make bosses, mini bosses "resistant" rather then immune to abilities (so instead of being immune to slowa they do get slowed down but only by 25-30% instead of full 75%) and now there is a variety of frames which are usefull in boss fights.

[NinjaKitsune56]

4 hours ago, LightZodiac said:

I have a certain problem with this game, lack of challenging content and lack of an actual endgame (challenging endgame would be really nice), the thing is I googled a bit and I can see that a lot of players had been asking for the same thing for quite some time now and yet we still don't have either of those in the game.

We got a lot of "we are listening to you", "we care about you", "you are important to us"... but no challenge or endgame. 

The thing "we" did get was arbitration. I said "we" because the content was lukewarm to start with, just regular missions with reused asset floating around giving enemies immunity to everything oh and +300% ability strenght for random frame and weapon... much challenging just what we wanted /s, but even that was promptly nerfed so it pretty much belongs to the basket of what casual players get.

I'd like a bit honesty here, I'd like for devs to come out and say that veterans and min-maxers are not welcome, I'd like them to say that this game is nothing but a horde shooter where absolutely all content is made to suit the casual players, or actually show us some of that love and caring and give us what we need.

You want a challenge?
This is a game with nearing 40 Warframes and literally hundreds of weapons. Cheese tactics are all over the place. Creating a "challenge" for account for all of that is impossible, unless you want them to put a map-wide Nullifier bubble in the game. That challenge enough for you?

[LightZodiac]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Am I the only Vet that loves the fact that I can log in and slaughter hordes of enemies in supremely entertaining, loot-producing fashion AND watch Netflix in bed with my wife at the same time?

We don’t need an Eve online situation...

I don't want to take that away from you, heck sometimes I take Ember and just walk with her through lower level exterminate mission. Being surrounded with burning screaming enemies is great way of relieving tension.

Cheesy? Yes.
Fun? Also yes.

But sometimes I like to build tension and then relieve it, hard missions do just that 😉

[LightZodiac]

3 minutes ago, NinjaKitsune56 said:

You want a challenge?
This is a game with nearing 40 Warframes and literally hundreds of weapons. Cheese tactics are all over the place. Creating a "challenge" for account for all of that is impossible, unless you want them to put a map-wide Nullifier bubble in the game. That challenge enough for you?

I could just take Inaros and gun stuff with one of my OP pew-pew's so no.

Also takes out all frames which rely on abilities so lacks variety.

But if you add some negative modifiers into the mission like - ability strength, -pew-pew damage well that would be fun. Sometimes sorties have mission modifiers and when the stars align just right they are fun 🙂

[CoolDudeMcCool]

4 minutes ago, LightZodiac said:

I could just take Inaros and gun stuff with one of my OP pew-pew's so no.

Also takes out all frames which rely on abilities so lacks variety.

But if you add some negative modifiers into the mission like - ability strength, -pew-pew damage well that would be fun. Sometimes sorties have mission modifiers and when the stars align just right they are fun 🙂

How are negative handicaps any different from taking off the mods to begin with? They're not at all different, whether you drop Intensify or you get a -30% modifier you still go down 30% in ability strength. That's what everyone says no to.

[DeMonkey]

3 hours ago, Helch0rn said:

so why wait for DE to add another high level mission type, when you can get the same experience with lower levels by removing mods?

Because, perhaps, said poster doesn't just want higher levels? 

Perhaps they realise that, with the abilities we have available to us, there's no real difference between a level 1 and a level 9,999. We have ways of never getting hit, scaling damage, immortality. Why anyone would think that those asking for challenge just want higher levels is beyond me. Same applies to those who think higher levels are challenging. You even said this in your initial post here, which they quoted.

I'm not saying I think DE will ever actually make the game challenging, as realistically it requires a rework of... the entire game, but "handicap yourself" is a rather poor response. The game has become, through the consistently tacked on mechanics and powercreep, an unbelievably casual experience.

As for "define challenging", one of the reasons I think no one wants to say what they consider challenging is because everyone will hate the answer, but sure.

- No permanent invisibility.

- No immortality.

- No scaling enemies.

- AoE should be weaker than single target damage.

- Less mobility.

- Reduced ability usage, either via cooldowns or the removal of bs like Zenurik and energy pads.

Etc and so forth. Boo hoo it's awfully generic, and yes it is. Want to know why it's generic? Because it works. Challenge cannot exist in the game when we cannot get hit. It cannot exist if we can one shot enemies, or blast them through walls. Challenge cannot exist when we rely on infinitely leveling enemies to eventually push us out of a mission.

And of course, none of that is going to happen. I'm aware of this, but that doesn't mean that people can't gripe about the lack of it.

Assuming things is bad.

Edited January 22, 2019 by DeMonkey

[(PSN)MoxiumJackal]

4 hours ago, LightZodiac said:

I have a certain problem with this game, lack of challenging content and lack of an actual endgame (challenging endgame would be really nice), the thing is I googled a bit and I can see that a lot of players had been asking for the same thing for quite some time now and yet we still don't have either of those in the game.

We got a lot of "we are listening to you", "we care about you", "you are important to us"... but no challenge or endgame. 

The thing "we" did get was arbitration. I said "we" because the content was lukewarm to start with, just regular missions with reused asset floating around giving enemies immunity to everything oh and +300% ability strenght for random frame and weapon... much challenging just what we wanted /s, but even that was promptly nerfed so it pretty much belongs to the basket of what casual players get.

I'd like a bit honesty here, I'd like for devs to come out and say that veterans and min-maxers are not welcome, I'd like them to say that this game is nothing but a horde shooter where absolutely all content is made to suit the casual players, or actually show us some of that love and caring and give us what we need.

Looking at how much nerfs are coming with melee 3.0. And lack of story based lore quests. Or "endgame" thats beyond fashion. 

 

Nope

 

[Firetempest]

26 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

How are negative handicaps any different from taking off the mods to begin with? They're not at all different, whether you drop Intensify or you get a -30% modifier you still go down 30% in ability strength. That's what everyone says no to.

Sadly it's what people want. They want a new level to treat them like they didn't have all the best mods, just to be rewarded with mods that are stronger than the ones that level of difficulty negated. Standard MMO gear gating they are used to. It feels like progression.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Firetempest

[Serafinia]

They do listen to their community other wise they cannot generate profit. That is obvious they cannot please all so they focusing on newer players whom brings money because the grind is on that level, where a player can give up the boring grinding part and instead skip the content or bypass it with money. Most of the players skip the content and if they does not find any further pleasure then they leave the game. Basically this game is made or formed for casual players whom want instant contents and instant feel they are good. This is not about the hard work or not about a specific play mentality it is just about the business and knowledge of peoples.

 

Veteran players bored because they cannot find beyond the rewards further joy which means the game basically broken if the fun factor is hide behind the rewarding system. The new contents not enough and never will be enough because what the devs do is basically reskinning a non stop grind which alters in different forms but in the end it is still grind. The game has no other purposes and just very few person can enjoy this game without non stop new content and rewards. The game has already content the quality of the content is questionable but there are. The major flaw is they cannot make content which pleases all and what they make is not replayable on a way where you can feel it is now a different result.

 

In this case I can understand these players whom saying the content is not enough but honestly it is depend on the players what content they want and what the business model what a developer set. If the DE aim to earn fast profit and give short live fun then it is their own fault if the players leave the game. Players can vote with their money so don't throw at them then they need to rethink their policies.

 

The community also split in segments and there are thousands of ways how the players imagine the game and think the game should go. I personally enjoy the challenges and the god like horde shooter way the game bu it could be a bit darker, somewhere harder, sometimes engaging. I personally can enjoy this game because I play only for the fun value and I do not cry if I haven't opened all the maps did all the missions or get any new fancy items. I rarely farm because I have no time and I do not desire to spend my time to work in a game. If I finally earn some items then I have that and play it but only for fun if not succed at first time I will try later.

[(PSN)chubbslawson]

They didn’t listen when the majority of us console players wanted our old ui control system back.  Yes it still sucks

[LightZodiac]

30 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

How are negative handicaps any different from taking off the mods to begin with? They're not at all different, whether you drop Intensify or you get a -30% modifier you still go down 30% in ability strength. That's what everyone says no to.

Unless you make a survey which proves that everyone is against that do speak in your own name, not in the name of the whole community.

If you add a couple of - modifiers then you can't really build a 300% ability strength Chroma anymore, and if you do build it just for ability strenght you will have a bunch of shortcomings due to lower duration and efficiency. 

[Helch0rn]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Why anyone would think that those asking for challenge just want higher levels is beyond me.

because there has been a metric ton of threads asking for "challenging content" that boiled down to "I want the mission to start at lvl x"

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I'm not saying I think DE will ever actually make the game challenging, as realistically it requires a rework of... the entire game, but "handicap yourself" is a rather poor response. The game has become, through the consistently tacked out mechanics and powercreep, an unbelievably casual experience.

I agree that the game is casual. But if you gimp yourself by avoiding these "tacked on mechanics and powercreep", how is that a poor response if that is what makes it casual for you? wouldn't avoiding these things add some challenge to you, while others, that decide to use them can still enjoy their casual experience, effectively making more people enjoy the game the way they want to?

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

As for "define challenging", one of the reasons I think no one wants to say what they consider challenging is because everyone will hate the answer, but sure.

- No permanent invisibility.

- No immortality.

- No scaling enemies.

- AoE should be weaker than single target damage.

- Less mobility.

- Reduced ability usage, either via cooldowns or the removal of bs like Zenurik and energy pads.

Etc and so forth. Boo hoo it's awfully generic, and yes it is. Want to know why it's generic? Because it works. Challenge cannot exist in the game when we cannot get hit. It cannot exist if we can one shot enemies, or blast them through walls. Challenge cannot exist when we rely on infinitely leveling enemies to eventually push us out of a mission.

And of course, none of that is going to happen. I'm aware of this, but that doesn't mean that people can't gripe about the lack of it.

Assuming things is bad.

If that's your definition of challenge that's fine by me. I may disagree but at least you did what so many others failed to do.

apart from the infinitely scaling enemies I don't see what keeps you, or others, from self imposing those rules to add challenge.

[Chaemyerelis]

Ill say this yet again.

 

You can't make challenging content in a game where some frames are unkillable.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

5 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

DEs mindset for the last years was: We want players to hop into the game for an hour, have fun and log out.

I’m afraid that you’re looking at that from wrong PoW. Let’s say you’re in DE’s skin and Datamines are telling you that biggest money income is from players you listed. On which part of playerbase you will focus on?

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Helch0rn said:

because there has been a metric ton of threads asking for "challenging content" that boiled down to "I want the mission to start at lvl x"

"Same applies to those who think higher levels are challenging"

1 minute ago, Helch0rn said:

I agree that the game is casual. But if you gimp yourself by avoiding these "tacked on mechanics and powercreep", how is that a poor response if that is what makes it casual for you? wouldn't avoiding these things add some challenge to you, while others, that decide to use them can still enjoy their casual experience, effectively making more people enjoy the game the way they want to?

Because that defeats the purpose of playing the game. Why should I kill Eidolons for Arcanes if I'm not going to use them because they make the game more casual? Quite simply, you cannot avoid these tacked on mechanics and powercreep when the game is built entirely on them. Operators for example are tacked on, they're interesting, but they were given to us with no thoughts with regards to balance. 

Boiled right down, why should I ever leave Earth? I can sit there and play in my unmodded frame for challenge till the cows come home. All mods should be burnt, just incase I'm tempted to become slightly more powerful and dive back into the ungimped rabbit hole.

This sounds, to me, utterly laughable.

9 minutes ago, Helch0rn said:

apart from the infinitely scaling enemies I don't see what keeps you, or others, from self imposing those rules to add challenge.

See above.

And furthermore, even if we did it's still avoiding the problem. 'Maybe if we close our eyes to the faults we can pretend that Warframe is actually in a good state' sort of thing. People don't necessarily make these "Warframe needs challenge" posts because they want to be challenged, because if that was solely the case there's plenty of other games available to us, some genuinely believe that challenging content would be beneficial for the game as a whole, hence why "handicap yourself" doesn't help.

I am one of those people, and I personally feel that if Warframe continues the way it has for the past 5 years, then it will eventually crumble. The mindless casual experience only takes you so far, there's only so casual that you can make a game before most people start to get bored. Telling people to avoid certain mechanics, essentially to avoid playing parts of the game, is not a solution, and given I feel that this really needs fixing, such comments are detrimental to that message.

[LightZodiac]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

I’m afraid that you’re looking at that from wrong PoW. Let’s say you’re in DE’s skin and Datamines are telling you that biggest money income is from players you listed. On which part of playerbase you will focus on?

I don't think that DE focuses on new player as much because they would add better tutorials to lessen the learning curve and things like that long time ago. They will streamline new player experience in 2019, but considering all the things they are adding into the game I would say that's hardly focusing on new players.

I myself do not buy weapons and frames, but I do unload on cosmetics. Prime packs are too expensive for me but by all means DE do make a ton of delux skins, cool looking syndanas I will unload on them 🙂

[Rakosta_Kai]

30 minutes ago, LightZodiac said:

Unless you make a survey which proves that everyone is against that do speak in your own name, not in the name of the whole community.

Do you have such a survey supporting your stance?

Saying "Everyone" is no more hyperbolic than saying "A lot" imo...It's all still generalization.

The Tenno just told you to stop min-maxing if you want challenge...That sounds much simpler than changing everybody's everything to suit your whims as it makes you be responsible for your own fun instead.

Personally, I would love to see a scenario where players are incented for not min-maxing, attribute stacking, or room nuking...Because they are clearly well incented for doing so currently.

[LightZodiac]

8 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Do you have such a survey supporting your stance?

I never spoke in the name of all players.

Case closed.

And yeah I'd like that too.

Edited January 22, 2019 by LightZodiac

[CoolDudeMcCool]

8 minutes ago, LightZodiac said:

I never spoke in the name of all players.

Case closed.

And yeah I'd like that too.

Sorry, I'll clarify. When I see someone ask for challenge and the suggestion is "Make your own stats lower" it's generally not accepted as a good solution because it's not what people want. Negative modifiers are literally just making your own stats lower, but the game is forcing it instead of you doing it yourself. So from what I've seen on the forums, it still won't scratch the itch that I've seen people talk about.

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

6 hours ago, LightZodiac said:

I have a certain problem with this game, lack of challenging content and lack of an actual endgame (challenging endgame would be really nice), the thing is I googled a bit and I can see that a lot of players had been asking for the same thing for quite some time now and yet we still don't have either of those in the game.

We got a lot of "we are listening to you", "we care about you", "you are important to us"... but no challenge or endgame. 

The thing "we" did get was arbitration. I said "we" because the content was lukewarm to start with, just regular missions with reused asset floating around giving enemies immunity to everything oh and +300% ability strenght for random frame and weapon... much challenging just what we wanted /s, but even that was promptly nerfed so it pretty much belongs to the basket of what casual players get.

I'd like a bit honesty here, I'd like for devs to come out and say that veterans and min-maxers are not welcome, I'd like them to say that this game is nothing but a horde shooter where absolutely all content is made to suit the casual players, or actually show us some of that love and caring and give us what we need.

The devs here listens to the community one hundred times more than other companies especially compared to the garbage I came from before I played Warframe, Defiance 2050 a game I cringe when thinking about how I could play such trash!

[LightZodiac]

 

21 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

"Same applies to those who think higher levels are challenging"

Because that defeats the purpose of playing the game. Why should I kill Eidolons for Arcanes if I'm not going to use them because they make the game more casual? Quite simply, you cannot avoid these tacked on mechanics and powercreep when the game is built entirely on them. Operators for example are tacked on, they're interesting, but they were given to us with no thoughts with regards to balance. 

Boiled right down, why should I ever leave Earth? I can sit there and play in my unmodded frame for challenge till the cows come home. All mods should be burnt, just incase I'm tempted to become slightly more powerful and dive back into the ungimped rabbit hole.

This sounds, to me, utterly laughable.

See above.

And furthermore, even if we did it's still avoiding the problem. 'Maybe if we close our eyes to the faults we can pretend that Warframe is actually in a good state' sort of thing. People don't necessarily make these "Warframe needs challenge" posts because they want to be challenged, because if that was solely the case there's plenty of other games available to us, some genuinely believe that challenging content would be beneficial for the game as a whole, hence why "handicap yourself" doesn't help.

I am one of those people, and I personally feel that if Warframe continues the way it has for the past 5 years, then it will eventually crumble. The mindless casual experience only takes you so far, there's only so casual that you can make a game before most people start to get bored. Telling people to avoid certain mechanics, essentially to avoid playing parts of the game, is not a solution, and given I feel that this really needs fixing, such comments are detrimental to that message.

You worded it better then I would ever be able to.

And yes if I just wanted a challenge I could just play some other game, it's not like I'm limited to F2P games. I'd like WF to be a more "wholesome" game and that includes challenges. I was invited into this game by a friend, there were four of us, three of them abandoned this game, and I cannot recommend this game in its current form to other friends.

If it boils down to WF is a casual experience and if you don't like it leave then fiiine, i'm already down to playing dailies.

[LightZodiac]

3 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

Sorry, I'll clarify. When I see someone ask for challenge and the suggestion is "Make your own stats lower" it's generally not accepted as a good solution because it's not what people want. Negative modifiers are literally just making your own stats lower, but the game is forcing it instead of you doing it yourself. So from what I've seen on the forums, it still won't scratch the itch that I've seen people talk about.

I am aware that some players are asking for a challenge while we keep all of our OP stuff and on top of that there are no annoying game mechanics and that's... I think that's impossible. Like how do you challenge a Limbo player in Cataclysm and he finds Nullifiers annoying? Slowa wants to play interesting interception mission while her 4 makes all enemies on the whole map 75% slower? Same for the armor... so many players whine about the armor but without armor our weapons would melt enemies in less then a second.

Now I'd rather ask for a mechanics workout, make game feel more like when we started playing (I mean we all liked that part otherwise we wouldn't play right?) you know Loki can be invisible but not permanently invisible, you can't just mindlessly spam abilities, there are no immortal frames... etc.

But I'm painfully aware that's not going to happen.

So negative modifiers in certain mission would be good enough for me. The biggest difference from simply using less mods myself is that teammates have those same modifiers too, so I don't have to play with that guy who is going to cheese it for everyone else 🙂

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

13 minutes ago, LightZodiac said:

I never spoke in the name of all players.

Case closed.

And yeah I'd like that too.

True...

You spoke in the name of "A Lot"...Which makes your commentary no less hyperbolic than that Tenno's.

Simply put, you used a generalization to support a stance and so did they.

I find it ironic that you debunk an opposing stance when it's based on the same foundation you've built your own on.

Pot meet Kettle.

Lastly, I found your request  to have DE tell you they don't care about Vets and Min-Maxers rather amusing.

This whole game is a love letter to Vets and Min-Maxers.

...It's everyone else that's been slotted under the bus.

The whole game's revenue model is designed around casuals and new players chasing Vets and Min-Maxers power levels by design. 

9 minutes ago, LightZodiac said:

If it boils down to WF is a casual experience and if you don't like it leave then fiiine, i'm already down to playing dailies.

There is no scenario here where you will get what you want without others giving something up for you to have it.

What you want and DEMonkey want are two vastly different things imo as it relates to the game we have now...I don't disagree entirely with either perspective but recognize that you don't change flavors that radically without expecting backlash.

DE has been quite open about not being excited about how the current power delta stands currently so they may do something about it unless they decide they can't.

For my part, I've said for years that attribute stacking, a lack of attribute caps, and the lack of DR, a would wreck this game long term and it probably will/has...But I am just a player.

By choosing to play this game we all agree to follow their lead on the matter and these issues are duly noted by them in multiple venues.

If you can't, then don't.

If it's not fun, then stop.

Nothing screams for action louder than reduced player count.