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LightZodiac

Do the devs really listen to their community?

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I have a certain problem with this game, lack of challenging content and lack of an actual endgame (challenging endgame would be really nice), the thing is I googled a bit and I can see that a lot of players had been asking for the same thing for quite some time now and yet we still don't have either of those in the game.

We got a lot of "we are listening to you", "we care about you", "you are important to us"... but no challenge or endgame. 

The thing "we" did get was arbitration. I said "we" because the content was lukewarm to start with, just regular missions with reused asset floating around giving enemies immunity to everything oh and +300% ability strenght for random frame and weapon... much challenging just what we wanted /s, but even that was promptly nerfed so it pretty much belongs to the basket of what casual players get.

I'd like a bit honesty here, I'd like for devs to come out and say that veterans and min-maxers are not welcome, I'd like them to say that this game is nothing but a horde shooter where absolutely all content is made to suit the casual players, or actually show us some of that love and caring and give us what we need.

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They have enemy scaling planned and more endgame stuff (the new war) on the way.

also poor bait

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5 minutes ago, LightZodiac said:

lack of challenging content and lack of an actual endgame

DEs mindset for the last years was: We want players to hop into the game for an hour, have fun and log out.

With Kuva Survival and Arbitration they are trying to get to those "veterans" but don't make it too rewarding, since they still don't want you to play too much in one sitting (which is actually pretty neat, seeing people play too much for their own good).

But they stated in the last Devstream on Friday that they want to introduce endgame/challenging content (Wolf of Saturn maybe? and the difficulty rework)

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define challenging.

even the hardest mission can be cheesed with the right frame, thus eleminating all challenge. And given the vast amount of Frames, Weapons and builds we have, there will always be some way to cheese content.

here is a tip: if you want challenge try do do high level missions without a meta build, try to run with only half of the mods or none at all instead of crying that there is nothing that can challenge you uber-meta cheese

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How about you give examples of this "challenging endgame" you speak that every "veteran" agrees on. If you can't devise this mythical game mode that everyone apparently wants, then whatever they implement is going to leave a group complaining that they didn't get what they wanted.

It's easy to play this game, "Hey DE we need free platinum everyday! Why is there no free Platinum? Dev's don't listen to veterans!". You have to understand the first thing about feedback, not all feedback must be followed.

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Oh, look, a weekly "I want Devs to reply to a topic in a forum they do not respond in." thread!

Edit: They do listen. But they listen to all of “us” and thus they can not make everyone happy.

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There are two sides of this issue. One, the one that constantly wants challenge. The other, complain if a little bit of challenge introduced to the game. DE tries to please everyone by making their content somewhere in the middle and resulting most players don't get satisfied. The casuals still complain it is hard, the hardcore didn't get their lust for challenge sated. A good example of this is arbitration, it was planned to have the enemies start at lvl 80, but DE worried it's too hard for some people so they toned it down to lvl 60.

I hope that the next time they release their version of endgame, they better have the balls to really make it hard.

EDIT:

Though realistically it's really hard to make because of how many tools we, the players have. 30+ different frames and hundreds of different weapons. Players will find a way to cheese it. I guess it came down to what Scott said. "I don;t think I can define what challenge is because players will make the spreadsheet and found the best way to solve the challenge we made. I think the best we can do is make a challenging game mode that challenge different type of players." Kinda agree on that one IMO.

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Making proper, challenging endgame content without overly convoluted and/or just plain frustrating game mechanics is extremely difficult because of the nature of the game and how insanely powerful players can get. They've tried things like button-standing puzzles, Operators, forcing players to switch damage types etc. and all of them proved to be rather unpopular among players.

'Endgame' is not something they can just add. It will require some major overhauls to the damage and scaling before it can work.

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A lot of people say they want endgame content but either don't specify it or say these endgame modes need mods/weapons that make us ridiculously more powerful than we already are which will put us right back to square one.

They are listening to us. They are making a lot more content and changes this year when it comes to this. However when we the player base can't make up our minds as to what we want, or our ideas are a little ridiculous it's hard to fit our exact needs. 

For almost six years now DE has been doing a fantastic job with Warframe, developing it the way they vision and it's worked out great so far. They'll continue to do so.

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PVE games where you fight bots can only go so far, if you want infinite challenge play some pvp games because you fight real people that cant be cheesed with your meta build like in warframe.

What define "hard" in warframe? see fortuna for example, lots of knockdown, stagger, nullifier, energy drain, is that hard what you people want? asking difficult content in a pve game just mean they will put as much disturbance and raise the hp bar of the enemy, make them deal more damage, invisibility phases, etc. The A.I. would still the same like lvl.1 enemy you fight when you make new account, just the numbers racked up.

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How about we turn that question round?

 

Does the community really listen to the devs?

11 minutes ago, LightZodiac said:

I'd like a bit honesty here, I'd like for devs to come out and say that veterans and min-maxers are not welcome, I'd like them to say that this game is nothing but a horde shooter where absolutely all content is made to suit the casual players, or actually show us some of that love and caring and give us what we need.

You've pretty much answered you own question.

 

Veterans, "min-maxers" (whatever the hell that means), speed-grinders etc. only account for a certain part of the player base as a whole.

People need to understand that the devs have to balance the majority of content so that it is both accessible and playable by EVERYONE.

 

I'll say for the umpteenth time, that Warframe was never designed to have "endgame content" as such. Or maybe it was, but they allowed players to acquire so much power that it trivialised the game's hardest content. Mistake on their part? Or perhaps just lack of forward thinking and realising that players would eventually be able to complete everything without much effort?

Or perhaps its a consequence of trying to keep players interested, by introducing ever better frames, weapons, mods etc. 

 

OP (and all like-minded players) need to get over the fact there was never intended to be any specific endgame content, or modes specifically for veterans. They're also forgetting DE did actually try to meet these demands, but Conclave and their other efforts were rejected. Maybe if they gave some constructive feedback on what they WOULD like to play...in the RELEVANT SECTION of the forum, then maybe DE might listen to them.

 

Y'know, instead of just unhelpfully whining about lack of challenging content in GD...

 

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Complaining while generalizing way too much - check.

Not giving even an example what that "endgame challenge" would be - check.

Not following the news(literally last devstream difficulty was adressed) - check.

.... I could go on. Do we need bingo sheet for people who dont know what they want but just wanna complain?

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2 minutes ago, Pr1A said:

Making proper, challenging endgame content without overly convoluted and/or just plain frustrating game mechanics is extremely difficult because of the nature of the game and how insanely powerful players can get. They've tried things like button-standing puzzles, Operators, changing damage types etc. and all of them turned out to be rather unpopular among players.

'Endgame' is not something they can just add. It will require some major overhauls to the damage and scaling before it can work.

Bingo! The only way around these gamebraking abilities is to use mechanics which are frankly annoying (knockbacks, immunities, buttons... etc.) or is it?

Well my suggestion would be to make a game mod in which only a part of mod strength is taken into calculation, that way the difference between fully modded meta weapon with CC, CD riven and averagely build weapon is far smaller, damage buffs are weaker, the difference in EHP between frames is smaller and abilities are far less gamebraking (well except Limbo, but atleast you can't use his abilities offensively).

Or instead of making bosses outright immune to every ability but still let it get cheezed by huge damage buffs, make it get affected by abilities but to a lesser agree (you can slow him down with nova but less then a regular mob) and have him ignore a part of that damage buff as well.

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2 minutes ago, Sormaran said:

Complaining while generalizing way too much - check.

Not giving even an example what that "endgame challenge" would be - check.

Not following the news(literally last devstream difficulty was adressed) - check.

.... I could go on. Do we need bingo sheet for people who dont know what they want but just wanna complain?

I actually watched the last devstream if I didn't knew that melee rework is in works for over an year now I might even be hyped.

Example of endgame would belong in player suggestions... I'm not even going to bother putting it there since this problem is simply swept under the rug.

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Go watch latest devstream. Scott said there are all sorts of players and they cannot cater to each and everyone.

Warframe is an on-going game with no end to be seen yet... so there is no endgame.

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22 minutes ago, Helch0rn said:

here is a tip: if you want challenge try do do high level missions without a meta build, try to run with only half of the mods or none at all instead of crying that there is nothing that can challenge you uber-meta cheese

Ah, classic forum garbage.

Hey, if you want a challenge try playing with no hands. Your feet are ready.

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2 minutes ago, LightZodiac said:

Example of endgame would belong in player suggestions... I'm not even going to bother putting it there since this problem is simply swept under the rug.

That implies you do have an example. So then what, entire point of this topic is whine "whaaaaa DE dont listen to players whaaaaa", while you have(allegedly) some thoughts you could put in suggestions section of the forum and be productive instead of creating this topic? Interesting. Very interesting.

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31 minutes ago, LightZodiac said:

Do the devs really listen to their community?

Yes they do, but most of us are hopelessly ignorant of the realities of commercial development let alone game development, let alone actual game design, let alone the fiscal tightrope of the self-published FTP business model. So there is a lot of Dunning Kruger Syndrome for them to wade through.

31 minutes ago, LightZodiac said:

I'd like a bit honesty here, I'd like for devs to come out and say that veterans and min-maxers are not welcome, I'd like them to say that this game is nothing but a horde shooter where absolutely all content is made to suit the casual players, or actually show us some of that love and caring and give us what we need.

Oh, well you're not going to get any of that so I'd suggest getting used to disappointment.

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Ah, classic forum garbage.

Hey, if you want a challenge try playing with no hands. Your feet are ready.

like always, this garbage brings me no better rewards. And this is MY problem for the endgame, you have the chance to get one "good" thing in the sorties, then you can play arbitrations but when you have all of these mods, you can play elite sanctuary which gives you still the same relics and no new reward table every week. This is the real problem timewalls...

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5 minutes ago, LightZodiac said:

I actually watched the last devstream if I didn't knew that melee rework is in works for over an year now I might even be hyped.

Example of endgame would belong in player suggestions... I'm not even going to bother putting it there since this problem is simply swept under the rug.

So...you want "challenging endgame content" but you can't even be bothered to give any constructive, helpful feedback?

Saying DE just "sweep it under the carpet" is a lazy, lame excuse.

 

You get what you deserve. If you can't be part of the solution, then you're just part of the problem.

 

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1 minute ago, SilentMobius said:

Yes they do, but most of us are hopelessly ignorant of the realities of commercial development let alone game development, let alone actual game design, let alone the fiscal tightrope of the self-published FTP business model. So there is a lot of Dunning Kruger Syndrome for them to wade through.

Oh, well you're not going to get any of that so I'd suggest getting used to disappointment.

Well atleast somebody is honest around here.

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If you want to look at devs who listen to everything that their fans want... look to Sonic team. Their fanbase is infamously divided. It is one of the few fanbases that I would actually call toxic, not because of all the stuff people usually point to but because there's so many camps all demanding mutually exclusive things in the games.

Allow me to link in a summary: 

 

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1 minute ago, FlusteredFerret said:

So...you want "challenging endgame content" but you can't even be bothered to give any constructive, helpful feedback?

Saying DE just "sweep it under the carpet" is a lazy, lame excuse.

 

You get what you deserve. If you can't be part of the solution, then you're just part of the problem.

 

OK so rework the way mods are calculated on our weapons so base damage is higher and end damage is lower, lowering the difference between meta builds and whatever it is the casuals are doing, have enemies have flat armor values so EHP of enemies doesn't skyrocket, have enemies with different resistances to our abilities so we can't simply cheeze every single mission type, instead of bosses relying on immunities to prolong the fight in really annoying way have them be immune to part of the buffed damage...

Oh wait this includes certain nerfs so players can't feel like gods and just walk through levels while enemies just die around them now we can't have that can we?

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