Auction house system?

[Calistin]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Yes-Man-Kablaam said:

DE said no multiple times

True but they only need to say yes once......

[markus230]

22 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

AFAIK items on the Steam marker aren't bottoming out in price despite this undercutting. So you really just refuted your own point there. I mean, yeah, undercutting will happen. It happens in any market that's not regulated by imposing prices. It's natural and good, that's how supply and demand works to determine price.

1

Most items on the market are valued at no more than 0.20€, and a whole bunch of them are going for the lowest possible price of  0.03€. If that's not bottoming out I'm not sure what is. Go to Steam market page, click on Steam items (since those are mostly infinite, like cards, backgrounds and emotes), sort from the highest price to the lowest, go to page 7000, and there you go, items for less than 0.20€, and there are 13358 pages more to go. 13358 pages of worthless items. 2/3 of the whole list

Do you know which items are mentaining value or increase in value? The ones that A. Are rare and there is no way to farm them (Like CS:GO, the only way to get skins is either by trading or playing slot machine, that requires keys, that cost money) B. There is a finite amount of them (look no further than Phased and Rubedo skins for Warframe). Prime parts and mods can be farmed, for free, and there is an infinite supply of them.

22 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Easily solved by implementing a queue, the oldest listing at the top, then the others in chronological order. If someone's selling multiple copies of an item, upon selling one they go back to the end of the queue.

 

As I've said, restrictions only make it worse. If all items are of the same price, and the oldest ones get to the top, instead of waiting for god knows how long until your item gets to the top, just undercut and you are the top right away, I doubt anyone is going to choose waiting in queue for 1 plat more over undercutting for 1 plat and selling immediately

Edited March 5, 2019 by markus230

[Koldraxon-732]

Auction Houses have been a request for a long time. DE has answered this question many times before.

In short, it's why Maroo's Bazaar exists - that's your Auction House. Open spoiler for some details that may or may not change your mind.

Spoiler

 

Look how that turned out for Diablo 3, World of Warcraft, and any (or rather, most) other MMOs or MMO-like titles with auction houses. If Destiny wasn't under Activision's grueling jurisdiction, it would probably be different, and have one of those too, but Bungie was cut short; it will take them years, if not at least a century, to recover at all from the loss of reputation.

Why an AH in WF won't work:
-It would be exploited mechanically, inevitably. -Actual participation would go to zero (DE dislikes 'sleep-playing' methodologies like the macro'd slide-attack with Riven+Max_Range+Atterax). -Prices would skyrocket due to instantaneous purchases, or fall to unprofitable margins. -Sets cannot be sold directly via traditional auction houses. -DIY/farming parts yourself would stop happening for most people, who would buy parts cheap, then when the Relics for them run out, would pump them back out at absurd prices. 

I could probably think of a few other issues that can rise from this. Also, Maroo's Bazaar is supposed to be the closest thing to what you're asking for. Don't let trading turn into a process a bot can exploit.

If this didn't change your mind, then my words are of no use. I thank you for reading this all the same, and hope you find some understanding in my perspective.

 

 

[SordidDreams]

8 minutes ago, markus230 said:

If most items on the market are valued at no more than 0.20€, and a whole bunch of them going for the lowest possible price of  0.03€. If that's not bottoming out I'm not sure what is.

So most items going for seven times the minimum price is your definition of prices bottoming out? Okaaay...

8 minutes ago, markus230 said:

Do you know which items are mentaining value or increase in value? The ones that A. Are rare and there is no way to farm them (Like CS:GO, the only way to get skins is either by trading or playing slot machine, that requires keys, that cost money) B. There is a finite amount of them (look no further than Phased and Rubedo skins for Warframe). Prime parts and mods can be farmed, for free, and there is an infinite supply of them.

Which is why they're much cheaper than things like Artax rivens and Primed Chamber. Yes, I've been familiar with basic principles of market economics since I was taught them sometime during high school.

8 minutes ago, markus230 said:

As I've said, restrictions only make it worse. If all items are of the same price, and the oldest ones get to the top, instead of waiting for god knows how long until your item gets to the top, just undercut and you are the top right away, I doubt anyone is going to choose waiting in queue for 1 plat more over undercutting for 1 plat and selling immediately

Yes, you said that, but that doesn't make it true. Warframe.market has no mechanism to prevent the same thing happening there, and yet it's not. You still haven't explained why you think it would start happening in an in-game AH.

4 minutes ago, Koldraxon-732 said:

Auction Houses have been a request for a long time. DE has answered this question many times before.

Vacuum on pets had been a request for a long time. DE had answered that question many times before.

It took years of pestering and asking, but aren't you glad they finally relented? It's going to take years more to get them to just give vacuum to everything by default withotu requiring a mod, and you're going to be glad then too. And the same with an AH.

Edited March 5, 2019 by SordidDreams

[markus230]

7 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Yes, you said that, but that doesn't make it true. Warframe.market has no mechanism to prevent the same thing happening there, and yet it's not. You still haven't explained why you think it would start happening in an in-game AH.

 

Warframe market doesn't allow you to buy items from players that are online. Simple as that. Just like people would undercut for 1 plat to sell their stuff faster, people will pay 1 plat (often more than that) more to not wait until an offline player comes back online who knows when, especially since someone else can get to them faster than you do when he does come back online.

AH does allow buying from offline players. And if it didn't, then it's just Warframe market that is already available

8 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

So most items going for seven times the minimum price is your definition of prices bottoming out? Okaaay...

 

Yes. If pretty much all items in Warframe go for no more than 7 plat, I'd say we've bottomed out.

Edited March 5, 2019 by markus230

[Acersecomic]

Why do people think the "auction house" would be open to manipulation? Look at all the other games that have a market going on ingame and they have no trouble. You just find one troublesome example to promote your cause just like antivaxxers. Come on, are you really as stupid as anti-vaxxers? Do you put yourself on their level?

Lineage II had a market where players would sit at the town square, set prices for items  they want to buy or sell and go afk overnight.
TERA Online had a player market where it would tax the player a % of the item price to make sure the prices aren't inflated and players could list their items up there. No hagling unless the user is online and you contact them personally.
EVE Online has the largest market of any game, so large in fact that prices of some items are affected by real life economy. A market spanning thousands of systems, stations, tens if not hundreds of thousands of players who list items for sale, millions of items.

Why would an ingame market like https://warframe.market/ or https://nexus-stats.com/ get manipulated to a degree where you'd call HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAX on it?

Edited March 5, 2019 by Acersecomic

[SordidDreams]

9 minutes ago, markus230 said:

AH does allow buying from offline players.

Says who? It doesn't have to.

9 minutes ago, markus230 said:

And if it didn't, then it's just Warframe market that is already available 

Yeah, except without the requirement to alt+tab out of the game and only allowing verified items to be posted and providing verified price statistics... All I see is upsides. Even if the WF AH was literally nothing more than a copy of warframe.market integrated into the game, it would be a huge step forward.

9 minutes ago, markus230 said:

Yes. If pretty much all items in Warframe go for no more than 7 plat, I'd say we've bottomed out.

Most items already do. The hundreds of mods that exist? Almost all worthless.

3 minutes ago, Acersecomic said:

Why do people think the "auction house" would be open to manipulation?

They don't, it's just deliberate fearmongering by people who are currently profiting off of trade chat and third-party websites, which are vastly more vulnerable to manipulation than an in-game AH would be.

Edited March 5, 2019 by SordidDreams

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

Kind of makes you wonder if any of the people making and supporting these threads ever passed a basic economics course in their lives. 

Gladly DE has realised how much of a bad idea this would be and have said no. 

[markus230]

14 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Yeah, except without the requirement to alt+tab out of the game and only allowing verified items to be posted and providing verified price statistics... All I see is upsides.

1

Or just open the Warframe market in Steam Overlay. If that's too much hassle then sure, implementing it straight into Warframe (you realise that you'd have to go to a separate menu anyway right?) would be fine, but it wouldn't change anything.

14 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Most items already do. The hundreds of mods that exist? Almost all worthless.

 

Definitely not (/s) because those mods drop like candies and:

A. People already have hundreds of copies so why would they buy more?

B. The mods are useless.

C. Combination of both.

It's like saying that selling sticks and stones on the side of the road doesn't make much profit, so it must be due to being undercut by other stick and stones salesmen

Mods that are useful and not easy to get hold their prices really well (like Heavy Caliber, for example, it's been sitting at around 20p for years).

So the fact that most mods are worthless is because no one wants them, not because people are undercutting each other. And sure. Undercutting still happens, but as I said it's balanced out by the fact that you can't trade with offline players.

Edited March 5, 2019 by markus230

[Giveup12]

I feel they should just show average sale prices for items

[peterc3]

Rivens are not special. They don't need special systems to be set up to treat them specially. Here's the reality: they are worth only as much as people buy them for. Stop buying them and they won't be priced as high.

[markus230]

2 minutes ago, Giveup12 said:

I feel they should just show average sale prices for items

That would be skewed by people giving each other plat or items for free though

[SordidDreams]

3 minutes ago, markus230 said:

Or just open the Warframe market in Steam Overlay. If that's too much hassle then sure, implementing it straight into Warframe (you realise that you'd have to go to a separate menu anyway right?) would be fine, but it wouldn't change anything.

I don't mean just implementing a browser and opening a third-party website. I mean a trading system that duplicates the functionality but only allows you to input items you actually have rather than letting you type in whatever you want, making it more convenient and less vulnerable to manipulation.

6 minutes ago, markus230 said:

Definitely not (/s) because those mods drop like candies and:

A. People already have hundreds of copies so why would they buy more?

B. The mods are useless.

C. Combination of both.

It's like saying that selling sticks and stones on the side of the road doesn't make much profit, so it must be due to being undercut by other stick and stones salesmen

Yes, and that's the case in your Steam example as well. All those really cheap items on there? Plentiful and undesirable, and therefore cheap. So really what you're saying is your Steam example was not really relevant.

6 minutes ago, markus230 said:

Mods that are useful and not easy to get hold their prices really well (like Heavy Caliber for example).

So the fact that most mods are worthless is because no one wants them, not because people are undercutting each other. And sure. Undercutting still happens, but as I said it's balanced out by the fact that you can't trade with offline players.

Yes, again, I'm aware of how supply and demand works. What I don't get is why you think these desirable items would drop in price. As you said, their high price is determined by the difficulty of obtaining them, not by the difficulty of putting them up for sale. Allowing players to sell them easier and with less hassle would not make the price go down.

[(NSW)Mercwithamouth22]

I had actually hoped to find an auction house when I had first started the game. not only does it save me from dealing with people but it would also allow me to put multiple items up and forget about them until they are sold. MANY MMO games have them both free and paid and there is no logical reason not to have it beyond them wanting to force platinum down your throat

[SordidDreams]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Mercwithamouth22 said:

I had actually hoped to find an auction house when I had first started the game. not only does it save me from dealing with people but it would also allow me to put multiple items up and forget about them until they are sold. MANY MMO games have them both free and paid and there is no logical reason not to have it beyond them wanting to force platinum down your throat

No, see, that's the beauty of WF's plat system. Plat is the premium, real-real money currency, so all plat trading in WF is real-money trading already. A lot of MMOs have a problem with people farming up items and selling them for real money, but in WF that exact thing going on actually benefits the devs and the game.

[markus230]

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

Yes, and that's the case in your Steam example as well. All those really cheap items on there? Plentiful and undesirable, and therefore cheap. So really what you're saying is your Steam example was not really relevant.

 

It's not because people actually buy those items. Noone buys mods like Warm Coat

2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Yes, again, I'm aware of how supply and demand works. What I don't get is why you think these desirable items would drop in price. As you said, their high price is determined by the difficulty of obtaining them, not by the difficulty of putting them up for sale. Allowing players to sell them easier and with less hassle would not make the price go down.

 

How many times do I have to repeat the word "undercutting"? Selling stuff in AH is a hassle unless you undercut everyone else. There is no shortage of Heavy Calibers, but there is a shortage of people selling it in this exact moment so the price doesn't get undercut often because your offer won't get buried under countless other ones. So yes, making selling them easier would make the prices go down.

You can't solve undercutting if the supply is infinite, every restriction you put in place can be worked around by undercutting.

[FlusteredFerret]

*sigh*

 

Greed brings out the worst in people...

 

This is supposed to be a space ninja, power fantasy game, yet all some people seem to be concerned about is how much money they can make out of it.

 

Edited March 5, 2019 by FlusteredFerret

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

5 minutes ago, markus230 said:

It's not because people actually buy those items. Noone buys mods like Warm Coat

How many times do I have to repeat the word "undercutting"? Selling stuff in AH is a hassle unless you undercut everyone else. There is no shortage of Heavy Calibers, but there is a shortage of people selling it in this exact moment so the price doesn't get undercut often because your offer won't get buried under countless other ones. So yes, making selling them easier would make the prices go down.

You can't solve undercutting if the supply is infinite, every restriction you put in place can be worked around by undercutting.

Here's someone who gets it. 

 

Also demand will remain finite because while sellers can be offline, buyers have to be online. Their number will remain relatively constant, while the seller now finds themselves faced with potentially millions of competitors. 

 

That's a recipe for disaster, and the people who are supporting the system often cannot grasp that basic concept. All because they are so myopic and think it will be easy money for them. 

[Protomorph]

Riven traders won't allow DE to add an auction house, as you can see in this thread. It would cut into their profits.

It's a shame how nobody realizes that DE could even *GASP* introduce an auction house ON A TRIAL BASIS. And if it doesn't work out, THEY COULD REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME.

WEIRD, RIGHT?

There are even measures midway between those, like DE making a resource that lists all trades, or all riven trades and the price they sold for. Even taking that information and making it available to players would help everyone. People would know what rivens actually sell for since that's all handled in the game.

There's only 2 things holding the game back from making progress on this issue: the Warframe player base, and D.E.

[(PSN)wintersfrozen]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

While I don't like the idea of an auction house, I am open to any alternative just to spite those guys in the riven dealer clan after what they did.

Seriously, next thing you know they will got after places like warframe market because they want to make money. I get the frustration of watching things deflate but what they did was just flat out rude.

I am curious to see DE's stance on the issue though. Who will they side with the guy who went against the system to help others or the guys who are taking advantage of it?

[(NSW)Mercwithamouth22]

Just now, Protomorph said:

Riven traders won't allow DE to add an auction house, as you can see in this thread. It would cut into their profits.

It's a shame how nobody realizes that DE could even *GASP* introduce an auction house ON A TRIAL BASIS. And if it doesn't work out, THEY COULD REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME.

WEIRD, RIGHT?

There are even measures midway between those, like DE making a resource that lists all trades, or all riven trades and the price they sold for. Even taking that information and making it available to players would help everyone. People would know what rivens actually sell for since that's all handled in the game.

There's only 2 things holding the game back from making progress on this issue: the Warframe player base, and D.E.

or they could just ban riven trading in the auction house for the crybabies

[SordidDreams]

14 minutes ago, markus230 said:

It's not because people actually buy those items. Noone buys mods like Warm Coat

I meant the minimum-price ones. The ones that are six or seven times the minimum price? Yeah, demand is exactly why those prices haven't bottomed out.

14 minutes ago, markus230 said:

How many times do I have to repeat the word "undercutting"? Selling stuff in AH is a hassle unless you undercut everyone else.

How many times do I have to repeat the words "warframe.market"? Selling stuff on warframe.market is also a hassle unless you undercut everyone else. If you have no problem with that website, you have no problem with an AH.

14 minutes ago, markus230 said:

There is no shortage of Heavy Calibers, but there is a shortage of people selling it in this exact moment so the price doesn't get undercut often because your offer won't get buried under countless other ones. So yes, making selling them easier would make the prices go down.

You can't solve undercutting if the supply is infinite, every restriction you put in place can be worked around by undercutting.

But the supply isn't infinite, and there absolutely is a shortage. Why do you think Heavy Caliber, useful on some guns, goes for 20p, while Serration, useful on all guns, goes for 2p? Precisely because the supply of Serration actually is infinite, you keep picking up more of them regardless of what you do, while Heavy Caliber needs to be specifically farmed for, and most people aren't doing that.

By the way, I have to chuckle at the idea of HC, worth a measly 20p, being an example of prices not bottoming out, at least if we go by your definition of that term.

The reality is that there are two types of items in WF: Ones whose price is determined by their limited supply, and ones whose price is determined by people's limited patience. The reason why HC is 20p and not 2p is because there are slightly more buyers than sellers. The reason why Serration is 2p and not 1p is because most people can't be bothered to travel to the dojo and back for only 1p. Implementing an easy AH will absolutely cause a price drop in the latter category, because the determining factor of those prices will disappear, but I don't see that as a big deal given that they're very close to bottoming out already anyway. The former category will not be affected, or only slightly and temporarily.

Edited March 5, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Jarriaga]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

Seriously, next thing you know they will got after places like warframe market because they want to make money. I get the frustration of watching things deflate but what they did was just flat out rude.

I am curious to see DE's stance on the issue though. Who will they side with the guy who went against the system to help others or the guys who are taking advantage of it?

I don't think it's a though call for them considering the riven dealer went as far as boasting about what they did.

[mikakor]

i would really like an HA ^^ too bad if prices go down, it will just show the opinions peoples have on how much an item should cost.

[Kimimoto]

3 hours ago, llls1cKb0ylll said:

ongoing problems

I mean if you want literally every item besides Rivens to drop to like 10% of what it was and destroy getting plat in this game, then yes, let's do it.