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Auction house system?

Luciole77

By Luciole77,
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(PSN)guzmantt1977

(PSN)guzmantt1977

Posted
Posted
28 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

 It doesn't take a genius to tell what it's about. 

You're right. Sadly some don't seem to have figured it out. Let me help:

28 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

"APB How To Buy / Sell Tutorial",

And it doesn't take a genius to find out the rest of how their auction house works, does it? Just a little bit of effort that some wouldn't be willing to put out, if they weren't already aware. 

But it takes a lot of effort to make up the claim of that the video was created to show the UI just for warframe to copy, when it doesn't even mesh with the title.

28 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

And I'm the one pulling things out of... thin air? Care to cite a source for those numbers and a reason for your certainty of them?

https://steamcharts.com/app/230410

That one shows that max concurrent players exceeded 100k several times last year. Note that it specifically only the players on Steam and the total number of players on PC is probably even higher. 

https://m.ign.com/articles/2018/03/13/warframe-player-count-statistics-5th-anniversary

And that one is showing the estimate of total players/accounts last year. 

So, again no. I'm not the one just making stuff up. This is where you take a moment and perhaps realise that this is not a new conversation and for at least one of us, this is well covered ground. 

The vast majority of players would have things that they would be willing to sell. Many of us would have high value items. But the number of us with excess plat, and an interest in purchasing the items would be relatively low as they are for most items. Supply, and demand. 

 

Nice try though.

38 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Yes, you said that many times already. What you haven't said is why you think the supply can't be throttled by imposing restrictions. All you keep repeating is that "it can't be done, it can't be done" without providing a single shred of reasoning.

Not a very nice try. Especially given that I gave rather conservative figures. I accept that you may not have had any idea of how many people play this game, but if you're going to contend that it's unlikely to increase the potential sellers, that's one of the statistics that you should have probably looked into. Guess you didn't bother to spend the effort. 

And even with a restriction of one item for sale per 24-hour period, I have difficulty believing that you don't understand that "a small fraction of players currently online" is less than "possibly all online players who have not yet made a trade for the day" or "possibly all players who are online or offline". 

 

Again your stance while popular with a vocal group, is not merited. It's not in the best interest of the community. It is a very bad idea. 

49 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Once again the feeling is 100% mutual.

So glad to see that you agree that you feel that Dunning-kruger is a problem for you, that you are are probably trolling, and you only want to argue. 👍

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SordidDreams

SordidDreams

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And it doesn't take a genius to find out the rest of how their auction house works, does it?

No, it doesn't, but that's beside the point. Said point being that, IIRC, nobody in the original thread said that a WF AH would or should allow offline trading, that that was just your assumption. You and that other guy disagreed with that point, so I asked you to find and quote someone who said that. Because I try to avoid assuming the worst about people, I assume you did try. And the fact that you didn't provide such a quote shows that you failed.

This may seem really petty, but it's actually super important. If we want to have a meaningful conversation rather than just speak past each other, it's necessary we actually respond to what the other person said instead of propping up straw men.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

it takes a lot of effort to make up the claim of that the video was created to show the UI just for warframe to copy

Speaking of things nobody ever said, that would be another example. If you disagree, quote me where I said that.

It's all fun and games when talking about a videogame, what really worries me is that exactly this kind of demagoguery, backed by enormous amounts of money, is being employed to influence our politics.

9 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

https://steamcharts.com/app/230410

That one shows that max concurrent players exceeded 100k several times last year. Note that it specifically only the players on Steam and the total number of players on PC is probably even higher. 

https://m.ign.com/articles/2018/03/13/warframe-player-count-statistics-5th-anniversary

And that one is showing the estimate of total players/accounts last year. 

So, again no. I'm not the one just making stuff up. This is where you take a moment and perhaps realise that this is not a new conversation and for at least one of us, this is well covered ground.

Ah, I see. You're assuming that the vast majority of players would immediately start trading. Well, it's good we've finally identified the root of the problem, now you can start working on correcting it.

11 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The vast majority of players would have things that they would be willing to sell. Many of us would have high value items. But the number of us with excess plat, and an interest in purchasing the items would be relatively low as they are for most items. Supply, and demand. 

Indeed. That's why, as I said, strict restrictions need to be implemented to prevent all those potential sellers from flooding the market. Supply and demand.

12 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

if you're going to contend that it's unlikely to increase the potential sellers, that's one of the statistics that you should have probably looked into

It's a good thing I don't contend that, then. If you disagree, please, quote me where I said that.

12 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Again your stance while popular with a vocal group, is not merited. It's not in the best interest of the community. It is a very bad idea. 

What is this? Do you think simply repeating some baseless assertion enough times is going to make it true in people's minds?

Actually, AFAIK research shows that you're right. That's why it's so important to continue countering you.

 

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(PSN)guzmantt1977

(PSN)guzmantt1977

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

No, it doesn't, but that's beside the point. Said point being that, IIRC, nobody in the original thread said that a WF AH would or should allow offline trading, that that was just your assumption. You and that other guy disagreed with that point, so I asked you to find and quote someone who said that. Because I try to avoid assuming the worst about people, I assume you did try. And the fact that you didn't provide such a quote shows that you failed.

Nonsense. 

It's nobody's fault that you do not know (or are claiming to not know) how that specific example works. And IIRC (which I do) nowhere in the video or the OP did it say that the proposed system was meant to be just online. There were comments about preferring putting things up for sale with no subsequent interaction needed. It's just your interpretation that it was online only (and that after it being posted more than once how terrible an automated trading auction house would be). 

It's also been indicated to you by "that other guy" that your idea of an AH is not in line with the way that auction houses work in the majority of games where they're used. Why you continue to hold on to an idea that you yourself know not to be true, I truly do not know. 

2 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Speaking of things nobody ever said, that would be another example. If you disagree, quote me where I said that.

 

9 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

The video was created to demonstrate the AH UI and was posted in order to show that UI and how the player could access it (which is to say the same as any other console or kiosk in WF).

☝️

The video was meant to show people a tutorial for how to trade in APB. If you aren't familiar with trading in APB or the taxation scheme they used, the way that the game economy is designed to make you use your resources ensuring a permanent demand, that's on you. But somehow you still feel like you are able to tell others that it's a system that should be adopted here? 😂

 

2 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Ah, I see. You're assuming that the vast majority of players would immediately start trading. Well, it's good we've finally identified the root of the problem, now you can start working on correcting it.

Did I say "immediately"? Can you quote me writing that? Or was that yet another flawed assumption on your part? Or just another thing that you made up? 

What I clearly said (repeatedly) is that it is obvious that the supply of most items will go up. And demand for the items will not rise commensuratly. Prices will fall. 

When you had difficulty figuring out how I arrived at those numbers, you demanded I cite them. Since they are from off the thread I very graciously provided, what for many of us, is common knowledge.

2 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Indeed. That's why, as I said, strict restrictions need to be implemented to prevent all those potential sellers from flooding the market. Supply and demand.

And I already explained (giving credible numbers) why even your imaginary "strict restrictions" won't work. No restrictions exist that can fairly turn 100k potential simultaneous sellers into whatever tiny fraction of that we currently have. Likewise none exist that will turn millions into the tiny fraction that we have. Even reproducing warframe.market in game (which many of us aren't fully opposed to) will have a significant effect on supply, and cause an adjustment of prices. 

If you claim to want a system that restricts supply, then you are asking for the current system. So congratulations you already have your dream system. 

Supply and demand. 

2 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

It's a good thing I don't contend that, then. If you disagree, please, quote me where I said that.

"Allowingplayers to sell them easier and with less hassle would not make the price go down." 

It currently resides at the top of page 16. Allowing players to sell easier will increase the willingness of players to trade. Heck I might even make the effort more often. Like others have said, I would be more than happy to take ridiculously low prices as I don't particularly need the plat, and getting something easily may make it worth my while, as I currently tend to just give stuff away. (When I WAS new to the game, generous players gave me some of the basic mods that I didn't have yet, and one person 'sold' me fully upgraded syndicate mods for my warframe when they randomly matched with me while levelling it. They got a kick out of my pleasure and told me to pass it on. And I freely admit that I enjoy seeing how excited the people I help out are and ask them to pass it on when they can.) 

If even unmotivated sellers like me will probably make the effort, and given human nature, the "Tragedy of the Commons" will come into place a lot quicker than you may realise it can. 

Prices will go down. 

2 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

What is this? Do you think simply repeating some baseless assertion enough times is going to make it true in people's minds?

It's the same card you've been trying to play. However my assertions have a base. Simple economics, the issues that plague other auction houses in games, despite those games having economic models that favour sustainability of the prices in an Auction House, the numbers of players and potential sellers. 

You're the one relying on unexplained, (and for all I can see imaginary, ) "strict restrictions" and systems that are unsuited to our economic model. You've made unfounded assertions that supply will not increase if the number of potential simultaneous sellers increases. 

2 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Actually, AFAIK research shows that you're right. That's why it's so important to continue countering you.

Only because you are arguing only for the sake of wasting everyone's time. 

 

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SordidDreams

SordidDreams

Posted
Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

It's just your interpretation that it was online only

No, that's not something I ever said or implied either.

39 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

your idea of an AH is not in line with the way that auction houses work in the majority of games where they're used

I never said that it was. And, I mean, isn't that a good thing? Given your conviction that typical AH implementations destroy their games' economies? If I were arguing for a typical AH implementation, I'd completely understand your opposition. But, as you said, I'm not. I'm really confused here. You're clearly aware that my idea of a WF AH is not at all typical, yet you're employing arguments tailored against those typical AH variants. You're arguing against precisely those shortcomings that my idea addresses.

As for the quotes:

3 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

it takes a lot of effort to make up the claim of that the video was created to show the UI just for warframe to copy

You said that I said that the video was created specifically as a demonstration of what WF should do. But:

10 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

The video was created to demonstrate the AH UI and was posted in order to show that UI and how the player could access it (which is to say the same as any other console or kiosk in WF).

I actually said the video was posted as an example of what WF could do. I didn't say it was specifically created for that purpose; that is obviously absurd. Seriously, stop with the straw men and address what I'm actually saying.

39 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Did I say "immediately"? Can you quote me writing that? Or was that yet another flawed assumption on your part? Or just another thing that you made up?

You repeatedly talked about an influx of sellers into an AH causing an economy "crash". Now I'm not an expert, but when I look up the definitions of that word, the word "sudden" crops up an awful lot in them.

39 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Allowing players to sell easier will increase the willingness of players to trade.

Of course, that's why, as I said, restrictions must be imposed to prevent them from trading as much as they'd like.

39 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

If even unmotivated sellers like me will probably make the effort, and given human nature, the "Tragedy of the Commons" will come into place a lot quicker than you may realise it can. 

That's... not how that terms is used, usually. Viewing other people as a common good to be exploited is incredibly cynical.

39 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You've made unfounded assertions that supply will not increase if the number of potential simultaneous sellers increases. 

No, I made a completely reasonable and valid argument that supply will not increase if potential simultaneous sellers are prevented from becoming actual simultaneous sellers. If you craft rules that prevent an increase in the volume of trades despite the increased convenience of trading, prices will stay the same. The only question is what those rules should be to achieve that.

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artemisfortune

artemisfortune

Posted
Posted

no. the current trade system plays well to the market. adding an auction house would drive prices down, and the in game market would likely not adjust to the deflation of prices. it would also hurt DE because people would get much much farther with 5 dollars of bought platinum than 10 dollars. the only way this could work is if they adopted a system like BDO has, where it's an auction house, but it's fixed prices. this idea is super restricting though, and the convenience doesn't really pay off. just use warframe.market.

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Ulvra

Ulvra

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Posted

When I started I didn't touch trading because there wasn't a faceless interface to go through, anxiety being the main limiter, but once I beat that barrier I am a lot happier with this system. An auction system brings its own anxiety, forces you to either pay overprice to buy out, if there even is a buy out or sit and worry for countless hours that someone is going to outbid you. It drives up prices artificially and unnecessarily and just makes the trading experience awful. Even though I still experience anxiety having to trade with random people, going in with a set price in mind that we both have previously decided to agree on is just so much better and help to keep prices down to a realistic level.

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Toddrusel

Toddrusel

Posted
Posted

No and No speak for yourself and only that.
Personal trading is the experience and it can be fun and it is how I have made a few friends in the game, Stop being such a misanthrope and thinking dealing with people is SOOO hard.

The auction house idea will reduce prices because like any other MMORPG that people have played know very well when something is sold for example: 50k gold. A person will come along and undercut them for a quick buck and put it down 45k, 40k, 30k, 25 until it reaches a laughable unworthy price of it's rarity and accessibility across the game. If you don't believe this than lol.

The other issue is that there are people who will flip prices most likely because they have played for the 6 years now and built up so much plat that they could be like hey B/O all the rivens or w/e else gets sold on the AH and flip them and we would all be forced to pay their prices instead of player interactions with barter and price options along with oh I don't know the fact that there are some who would ask you personally how much are you willing to pay for said item you are trying to buy.

The devs have said no and we have seen so many posts about it over the last couple of days that in fact some have been removed because the community hates the idea (well not all obviously)

Please stop with the AH stuff.

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(PSN)need_nase

(PSN)need_nase

Posted
Posted

     After thinking about how to improve trading and auction houses not being an option for many reasons, I have thought of a solution that will not negatively affect the economy. Imagine you want to sell a Riven or Prime set (or something else) but you do not have the time or patience, you could leave the item(s) in a special space for sale while you are away from the game. You could set the requirements for your item(s) so you can't get swindled (Platinum, weapon parts, special weapons), you'll get what you asked for or it'll stay there until you take it out. Others will search for items that they may want and see your stuff.

The best example of what I have just described is the GTS from the Pokemon series, although this system had a few really annoying flaws that wouldn't have an impact here.

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krc473

krc473

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, (PS4)need_nase said:

Imagine you want to sell a Riven or Prime set (or something else) but you do not have the time or patience, you could leave the item(s) in a special space for sale while you are away from the game.

Would said special place be like say, an auction house? What you are describing sounds like it is essentially the same as what many games call an auction house.

  • you list your item somewhere and give it the price you want. Players can search through a list for what they want. The player finds one with a suitable price and buys it.

How does your proposed system differ from this?

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(PSN)guzmantt1977

(PSN)guzmantt1977

Posted
Posted

Obligatory "Have you tried to add appropriate filters, because that makes a world of difference?" 

Also "Congratulations you have discovered a completely novel way of making an auction house that's not an auction house.... Wait no you haven't it's literally just an auction house system, that you are calling 'not an auction house'."

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(PSN)Ashagin

(PSN)Ashagin

Posted
Posted (edited)

Being a free to play game I think the whole purpose of not having an auction house, which is almost exactly what you proposed as not being an auction house, would be to make a player have to choose between spending his/her time (the most important commodity) playing the game, or spending the time making plat.  It would be far too easy to make plat with any form of auction house and it would impair the developers ability to make worthwhile content.  It's easy to rehash existing material but new and fresh content means revenue.  

While I've had fun debating this issue in other threads it would in the end be detrimental for this game which dousnt have the secondary option for a monthly membership, like many other ftp games have.  

The fact that they already enable us to trade for premium currency in a ftp game, which is plat in this case, is already unique to this game.  It's like de has already shot themselves in the foot and people keep asking them to take out the other one

Edited by (PS4)Ashagin
Grammical error
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(PSN)need_nase

(PSN)need_nase

Posted
Posted
On 2019-03-17 at 5:39 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Obligatory "Have you tried to add appropriate filters, because that makes a world of difference?" 

Also "Congratulations you have discovered a completely novel way of making an auction house that's not an auction house.... Wait no you haven't it's literally just an auction house system, that you are calling 'not an auction house'."

Auctions involve bidding, in the system I've thought of bidding would be nonexistent because it would be commencing a trade when you meet the requirements and you could get it if you want to commit to it. It's a first come first serve market just like trade chat. 

Also yes, I have used filters. Including and excluding text in chat. Good day.

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(PSN)guzmantt1977

(PSN)guzmantt1977

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, (PS4)need_nase said:

Auctions involve bidding, in the system I've thought of bidding would be nonexistent because it would be commencing a trade when you meet the requirements and you could get it if you want to commit to it. It's a first come first serve market just like trade chat. 

Also yes, I have used filters. Including and excluding text in chat. Good day.

Not when you just set the "buy now" price. 

Can you give some examples of the filters that you would typically have on at the same time? Having both include and exclude can cause one to override the others. 

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