Why do Excavators not scale?

[Aldain]

I've noticed I tend to make topics that ask questions.

But seriously, why do these things not scale at all? Today's sortie on switch was an absolute pain...all it takes is about 4 bullets from almost any random grunt and the excavators just melt.

Even in lower level missions these things are just way too squishy sometimes, I mean I get why they don't scale like defense targets, but not scaling at all just makes excavation feel like pulling teeth to me.

[TARINunit9]

The fact they scale on Fortuna makes it clear that DE really is willing to do it. They should just do it already

[FlusteredFerret]

Or you could just use Frost or Gara to put a shield round them...I've found this helps in Orb Vallis.

 

[Aldain]

7 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

Or you could just use Frost or Gara to put a shield round them...I've found this helps in Orb Vallis.

 

While this is generally a correct thing to do, it doesn't change the fact that if they scale on Fortuna as Tarinunit said above then it makes no sense that they can't scale in other missions.

It also doesn't help when Nullifiers walk up to your shield, negate it, and blow up the excavator in seconds.

[TheGrimCorsair]

Sorties are intended to reward good decision making and equipment choices for players. There's no reason for the Excavator to even be taking damage in the first place, fragile or not.

Further, you still get some amount of resources even if the excavator is destroyed, so while it might take a long time, you can just drop them and run. There is no fail state tot he mission save for running out of respawns.

Edited January 23, 2019 by TheGrimCorsair

[Hello]

I was going to get screenshots and make a similar post about this tonight. Pretty salty after that excavation sortie today and just alt f4'd to go eat dinner. 

In Orb Vallis, Excavators have 20k+ health depending on the level. Go to sorties and they have 2500 health. Enemy coughs on the excavator and it's destroyed. I would love to go 50-100 excavators at Heiracon. Killing enemies isn't the issue it's the excavators being weak.

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, --Brandt-- said:

Excavators have 20k+ health depending on the level.

I'd kill to have even a quarter of that added to the excavator, people are quick to say "There's no reason for them to be taking damage in the first place" but there's no such thing as absolute perfection. People will take damage, Nullifiers will negate shields, knockdowns stun people. 

In short, -expletive deleted- happens, so in good faith the game should at least meet players halfway and not give us plywood excavators.

[trst]

The Fortuna bounties can be failed if the extractors are destroyed and you can't always expect to get an excavation bounty so going in prepared is more difficult. So them scaling makes far more sense and is almost mandatory.

While when you go into a regular excavation you know your only objective is to defend excavators and there is no fail state if they get destroyed, only the enemy levels continue to scale and you slow your progress. So they shoulden't need scaling.

Sure it'd be nice having normal excavators scale but when you're going into an excavation you should be going in with a loadout that's good for excavations.

[(PSN)sister-hawk]

1 hour ago, FlusteredFerret said:

Or you could just use Frost or Gara to put a shield round them...I've found this helps in Orb Vallis.

 

1 hour ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

Sorties are intended to reward good decision making and equipment choices for players. There's no reason for the Excavator to even be taking damage in the first place, fragile or not.

46 minutes ago, trst said:

While when you go into a regular excavation you know your only objective is to defend excavators and there is no fail state if they get destroyed, only the enemy levels continue to scale and you slow your progress. So they shoulden't need scaling.

Believe it or not, requiring a very specific set of gear to complete (and i mean within reason, not drop an excavator, mine 4 cryotic, and then move to the next one) a gamemode is not a good way to design a game. There is no reason for any of you to defend this.

[KnossosTNC]

I soloed it with my high-strength Frost and a Redeemer Prime. I did lose one excavator, which was really annoying.

I still don't understand it myself. Are these things made of paper or something?

Edited January 23, 2019 by KnossosTNC

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, KnossosTNC said:

Are these things made of paper or something?

...Paper would be more durable.

[GinKenshin]

They scale in fortuna because it’s not an endless mission, just a bounty 

 

  The reason behind it is pretty clear, excav is pretty much the fastest endless mission you can do to get rewards, especially when your team splits up, so it’s a risk-rewards thing: wanna protect 2 fragile things to get more rewards at a risk? Or defend 1 at a time and have a reasonable time getting rewards compared to other endless missions 

 

  DE was clear about not wanting excav to be the best at getting rewards, that’s why they changed how diggers spawn and made them apart somewhat 

 

  Basically, them not scaling is to balance the fact that you get rewards much faster in this mode than others, so it’s forcing you somewhat to keep the reward pace lower rather than getting 2 rewards in 5-6

[trst]

59 minutes ago, (PS4)sister-hawk said:

 

Believe it or not, requiring a very specific set of gear to complete (and i mean within reason, not drop an excavator, mine 4 cryotic, and then move to the next one) a gamemode is not a good way to design a game. There is no reason for any of you to defend this.

Certain things better at doing a specific task than others isn't good design?

You can break down the entire roster of frames into what they're best designed for. Either being better at defense, offense, stealth, CC, support/utility, etc. Every single mission in the game has objectives which are better suited for specific set ups.

There isn't even anything preventing someone from using a specialized frame/loadout for a high level mission either. Nor is there anything preventing someone from forming a team to go through high level content.

Edited January 24, 2019 by trst

[deothor]

29 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

especially when your team splits up,

Only to learn mobs only spawn near 1 excavator.

29 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

DE was clear about not wanting excav to be the best at getting rewards,

Please, don't create this false narrative. It's that way, because someone in DE forgot about it when they created excav missions.

The same way they left staticor OP for few months and like 50 other cases I don't even bother to remember.

Why didn't they change it? Imo it's because they rush with break-neck speed to relase new content while totally forgetting old content even exists.

And if you still want to go with "DE is so deep you can see earths core through their toilet", then they would have done anything with excavators required at least 1 defensive frame... that also removes 99% of mission difficulty.

 

They don't change excavators because:

a) it's old content, therefore they won't invest time in fixing/changing it beyond bare minimum "so it works"

b) it's not really needed because defensive frames make excavation missions a joke

c) because it'd break their "deeper meaning" facade

 

Yes, excavators are the fastest endless mission there is. Or at least as long as you can split it... Which doesn't work that well cause spawns weren't fixed since ever. But there isn't any deeper meaning, really.

Edited January 24, 2019 by deothor

[GinKenshin]

50 minutes ago, deothor said:

Only to learn mobs only spawn near 1 excavator.

Not true in most cases 

50 minutes ago, deothor said:

Please, don't create this false narrative. It's that way, because someone in DE forgot about it when they created excav missions.

Proof? Who’s making a false narrative here? 

 

51 minutes ago, deothor said:

The same way they left staticor OP for few months and like 50 other cases I don't even bother to remember.

If you can’t bother remembering, then don’t bother to write, that’s a crappy example anyway

56 minutes ago, deothor said:

Why didn't they change it? Imo it's because they rush with break-neck speed to relase new content while totally forgetting old content even exists.

Updated weapons last year, updates mods in the most recent update...all of this is new content right? Gimme a break, they said it before that they’ll balance out new and old releases. Granted, they do a crappy job at it, but they still do it 

58 minutes ago, deothor said:

And if you still want to go with "DE is so deep you can see earths core through their toilet", then they would have done anything with excavators required at least 1 defensive frame... that also removes 99% of mission difficulty.

You can do all CC or all DPS too, don’t bring out the dumb player meta and make it look like it’s DE’s doing. Just like you can survive perfectly fine without nekros in Sur, you can do excav just fine without defensive frame, the only reason it’s used it’s because it’s easier 

1 hour ago, deothor said:

a) it's old content, therefore they won't invest time in fixing/changing it beyond bare minimum "so it works"

Again, useless and untrue statement. Updating mods that have been around for 5 years and 1 is even given out to newbies for free is as useless as it gets, but they did it anyway

 

1 hour ago, deothor said:

b) it's not really needed because defensive frames make excavation missions a joke

True, then why are we asking for it? Again, you can do the mission just fine without them 

1 hour ago, deothor said:

c) because it'd break their "deeper meaning" facade

They never mentioned these 2 words.... 

1 hour ago, deothor said:

Yes, excavators are the fastest endless mission there is. Or at least as long as you can split it... Which doesn't work that well cause spawns weren't fixed since ever. But there isn't any deeper meaning, really.

Nobody said there was, I was just saying what they said when they changed excav like 2 years ago. If you don’t agree with it then that’s not the game’s problem, it’s yours 

 

last time I played, the spawns worked just fine. They’re broke in only certain tile sets from what I’ve seen, especially on earth for some reason. I played an arbi on Pluto and the spawns were smooth as butter

[deothor]

8 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

Proof? Who’s making a false narrative here? 

you got me. I'm just as clueless about it as you.

8 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

They never mentioned these 2 words.... 

No, they haven't. But people like you (not accusing, definitely not in a bad way) try to add this deeper meaning to them. And well, why would they want to do anything to deny it, right?

Edited January 24, 2019 by deothor

[BL4CKN0ISE]

4 hours ago, Aldain said:

I've noticed I tend to make topics that ask questions.

But seriously, why do these things not scale at all? Today's sortie on switch was an absolute pain...all it takes is about 4 bullets from almost any random grunt and the excavators just melt.

Even in lower level missions these things are just way too squishy sometimes, I mean I get why they don't scale like defense targets, but not scaling at all just makes excavation feel like pulling teeth to me.

You're supposed to protect them, so it really doesn't matter how much HP they have. Why are you letting them get hit by 4 bullets? Anyways, I do understand your pain because I've been there. I avoided it for a long time, but you just need to get a frame that can completely protect excavators and defense targets. A huge part of Warframe is having frames and builds for everything. 

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

If excavators scaled it would turn that gamemode into a joke it's already super easy with only just one Frost or Gara with scaling you could just afk it because it would literally be impossible to destroy especially you know with power cores instantly recharging shields.

Edited January 24, 2019 by (XB1)Skiller115

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

5 hours ago, Aldain said:

I've noticed I tend to make topics that ask questions.

But seriously, why do these things not scale at all? Today's sortie on switch was an absolute pain...all it takes is about 4 bullets from almost any random grunt and the excavators just melt.

Even in lower level missions these things are just way too squishy sometimes, I mean I get why they don't scale like defense targets, but not scaling at all just makes excavation feel like pulling teeth to me.

That Limbo guy some people like to moan about?  You're not destroying anything he's protecting.

Unless he just gets bored.

[Marvelous_A]

go Vazarin and you can solo any given mission if your damage output is good

[(PSN)psycofang]

4 hours ago, (PS4)sister-hawk said:

There is no reason for any of you to defend this.

And yet...they will. The most common answer to faulty design in this game is usually to counter it with an over powered answer. 

It shouldnt be this way.

[BL4CKN0ISE]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

And yet...they will. The most common answer to faulty design in this game is usually to counter it with an over powered answer. 

It shouldnt be this way.

And how is that not balanced? An OP problem with an OP answer. Works perfectly, unless you don't have the answer. The problem is enemies can easily destroy the excavator. The answer is you can easily stop them from destroying the excavator with the right frame and build. 

You call it "Faulty game design", yet it works perfectly. Interesting...

[Panzerdragoon2000]

The problem I have with excavator missions are when void enemies nullifiers appear right next to your frost dome or rift and instantly destroy your protection,a few bullets in your direction and the excavator is gone.

[(PSN)psycofang]

2 hours ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

And how is that not balanced

Because to solve a faulty system, instead of fixing it you introduce a problem

You must have X Y or Z warframe/focus/weapon for this mission

Oh but it also sucks up any iota of challenge and concept of the mission and deletes it.

People complain the game is too easy, even sorties, telling people to counter a broken system with an even more busted system that trivializes the content is never a good answer.

So your answer isnt to modify the excavators to scale up or be given okish armor so they dont die in 1-4 shots or less depending on faction so other warframes become viable and thus creates various team comps

Your answer is to simply overpower the situation into pointlessness and have specific warframes required or deal with the faulty design.

 

 

2 hours ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

You call it "Faulty game design", yet it works perfectly. Interesting..

Its faulty.

Deleting any form of difficultly, challenge or even interaction from any unique mission type down grading it or in most cases utterly trivializing it is faulty.  

Hm. Thinking emoji.

Edited January 24, 2019 by (PS4)psycofang

[novalery]

Some frames are good at defending things, some are good at controlling the crowd, some are good at killing enemies, some are good at supporting others, some are good vs specific types of enemies.

imho either types of frames are good enough for excavation mission. And depending on your built, some frames from either types can cheese this mission. Having an unscaled excavators is a problem but not a bad one. Its the type of problem that you solve in game, a mission where your objective is to baby sit something that are weak.