I Wish To Express My Displeasure At The Need For Keys To Get Into The Orokin Derelects.

[Blatantfool]

You can try to rationalize their mistake as much as you like, but it's making a lot of people, me included, unhappy. Unhappy people don't buy play, recommend warframe to friends, or play it at all. I don't want a game like this game to go to waste because of hubris and money

 

 On that note, I agree.

[Tesseract_The_Pariah]

On that note, I agree.

Developers are always at the mercy of their customers , f2p games especially. The phrase, "the customer is always right" is true. Those who doubt it go out of business. Respect the hand that feeds you or starve,

[Blatantfool]

Developers are always at the mercy of their customers , f2p games especially. The phrase, "the customer is always right" is true. Those who doubt it go out of business. Respect the hand that feeds you or starve,

 

  Sure, but keep in mind that DE takes a very 'Customer is right' approach to Design Council polls and this community LOVES to say that DC couldn't do well in a poll to save itself from death. The one part of the community that does revolve around the choice making of paying customers happens to have an awful choice making reputation.

 

  No matter how responsible or loyal or whatever a customer is - they still only have experience playing games. That doesn't always mean they'd be any good helping put something together for a game.

 

 

 It is a weird situation. I'm always on the fence about it. I like to think that really you should only be putting weight on the word of those who make an honest attempt to truly understand what they mean. This is something even I don't get right every time. The desire to understand why or how something works and what is needed to fix it goes a long, long way.

[f3llyn]

Scott's what we call a dev with a vision. He would not cave to player demand because he believes in his own vision and is afraid that compromise after compromise would eventually result in a mess of a game that has neither soul nor consistency.

This is actually an AMAZING type of developer we're talking about.

You know that one small game developer called Blizzard? You know, that one modest company who came out with decent, tiny titles like WarCraft: Orcs and Humans and StarCraft: Brood War? They got their success partially because of their not-caving-to-player-demands attitude.

However, there is just one catch: your vision better turns out to be a freaking popular one. That's it. And that's all.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

About everyone discouraged by the grindception needed in order to farm Nekros parts, I think there's a legitimate reason that they put the system in place.

Remember Vauban? Well, turns out people didn't like to pray to the RNG god to be able to get the new warframe.

Fast forward to Nova: hey! It's a good ol' boss-drop frame! Just like the old days! Well, turns out it's just too easy to farm an easily accessible boss afterall, even though the drop rate seemed low, and the area/boss wasn't a complete pushover.

So now we have this build-a-key system. An artificial limitation to curb player progression (then again, what isn't?). And can you blame them? We're simply chewing through the new content too fast and in doing so, not spending enough on platinum purchases.

Remember, DE's official philosophy on Warframe's sustainability is "paying real money buys convenience". So, until the day the model switches to "paying real money to get non-game-effecting cosmetic skins/effects/items" (and DE seems to be working on this), we're going to have to put up with these types of grind.

 

 

Or we can just not bother with it at all. I don't need to play warframe to survive. Warframe needs us (the players) to survive. If I don't like the grind then I won't play.

 

Up until this point Warframe has been a relatively easy game to pick up and put down and didn't require a lot of time invested into it to get anywhere. Despite that I still managed to put 150+ hours into the game over the last year, which is more than or as much as 10x the time than I've put into games I've paid $60 for.

 

But it's getting to a certain point where it's just becoming tedious and not fun.

Edited September 14, 2013 by f3llyn

[Jiala]

So doing the math and figuring out how to get nekros... if blueprint droprates are the same as other bosses, nekros is going to be hell to get. First need to get 5 nav coordinates for each key... gonna go with Exterminate, they seem to be the cheapest ones to make. Drop rates seem to be about 1-3 per regular mission on average judging by the comments on the wiki.

And these missions will drop 'golem nav coordinates'. Unknown drop rate on them, going to assume the same drop rate as the normal nav coordinates. So 1-3 per mission. Assuming the same rate as it took me to farm ember, we did that in about 4 hours, averaging 6 minutes a run. So 40 runs. 40 x 5 = 200 golem nav coordinates. With the rate of them dropping being 1-3 per mission, assuming an average of 2, thats 100 derelict exterminate runs. 5 regular nav coordinates per derelict exterminate run, thats 500 nav points to gather, or about 250 individual mission runs. We'll also need 900,000 (9000x100) nanospores, 500,000 (5000x100) salvage, and 70,000 (700 x 100) circuits to craft the regular derelict missions. Then we need the mats for the 40 assassinate missions, thats another 10,000x40 (400,000) nanospores, 5000x40 (200,000) salvage, and 3000x40 (120,000) circuits.

 

And then assuming I actually get the nav points, and we assume a 10 minute run per mission, 250 normal mission runs is then 2500 minutes, or 42 hours (I rounded 2/3rds decimal point up), for just the nav points. Assuming those runs go smoothly at 10 minutes a run, 100 derelict runs becomes 1000 minutes, or 17 (again rounded up) more hours, so total of 59 hours. Not including crafting time on the keys themselves.

 

So a grand total of 1,300,000 nanospores, 700,000 salvage, 190,000 circuits and 59 hours of running missions. Mind this can be split over 4 people, each person producing 10 assassin keys and sharing them with the preset group, and only spending 15 hours doing all the farming per person provided they all have the materials for the keys already, which is a possibility.

 

Even with that, the numbers start to look a bit depressing though, more so if you're someone like me who can't find a steady set of people to rely on and ends up soloing even the level 60+ stuff half the time, and can't find a pug on anything other then defense missions for the life of me. And this is also assuming the RNG doesn't decide to screw me over completely.

 

Feel free to double check my math and contradict me if I'm wrong though. But from the looks of things... to get nekros in a timely fashion without platnum, you have to make warframe your full time job. *flops.*

 

edit: WOOPS! I messed up on a time math calculation, fixed it. Thanks F3llyn for catching that.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Jiala

[Gestalt]

You can try to rationalize their mistake as much as you like, but it's making a lot of people, me included, unhappy. Unhappy people don't buy play, recommend warframe to friends, or play it at all. I don't want a game like this game to go to waste because of hubris and money

The thing is that every person who's upset on the forums right now, in this thread or another, is a bona fide passionate Warframeer. I remember getting this upset about an update in the past, and I miss that feeling. (losing passion, killing eSports, etc. etc.)

Just try to keep the criticism less personal and more constructive, and when you can, offer some possible alternatives. Keep this thread (and others like this) alive with actual ideas and come Monday, the devs can assess the situation, go through the feedback and adjust the system.

I'm honestly pretty sure that they saw this backlash coming. But they had to do it. They have to keep pushing out new systems and test the waters with each new content release. It just so happens that this particular system involves the acquisition of a FREAKING AWESOME, COMPLETELY HYPED-TO-THE-STARS new warframe. Nekros isn't your Nova or even Vauban here folks.

Really think if they tested this new system on some weapons and perhaps Mag prime (drawing a comparison with the void's introduction, with a few weapons and a prime frame tied to it at first), there'd be less backlash.

[FrostboundFlame]

What honestly disgusts me right now is the fact that you're all thinking it's a bid to get more money. /yes/ you can fast-track things and use platinum to get the keys faster, but did it ever occur to you that, in one span of creating a key, that you could go back and get more materials for another key? not to mention that you can have multiple keys of different mission types going at the same time, effectively chopping down the time between keys even more. while I don't dispute that the timer itself is kind of dumb, I for one am glad that I have something to spend my in-game cash on that I earn faster than I can deal with. Heck, that's part of why I like this game as much as I do. you don't have to buy anything with real-world money that effects anything in-game, stat-wise, you can choose to play the game completely free and get everything regardless (even if it gets a little complicated due to item/warframe slots). All the game is asking for is a bit of your time, but apparently you don't have anything better to do other than play Warframe, based on the reaction this is getting. Personally I also think it's a better move than just putting the keys up for grabs in missions, where it basically boils down to hoping that you get the right key at the right time. at least this way they let you choose which key you want to make.

[lolatbob]

Should just have the keys not be single use. Easy, simple solution that pleases everybody.

[nerfpls69]

It'd be okay if you didn't have to grind to access the new tileset, but grinding to get another chance at grinding is just plain ridiculous, the hell were they thinking.

[f3llyn]

So doing the math and figuring out how to get nekros... if blueprint droprates are the same as other bosses, nekros is going to be hell to get. First need to get 5 nav coordinates for each key... gonna go with Exterminate, they seem to be the cheapest ones to make. Drop rates seem to be about 1-3 per regular mission on average judging by the comments on the wiki.

And these missions will drop 'golem nav coordinates'. Unknown drop rate on them, going to assume the same drop rate as the normal nav coordinates. So 1-3 per mission. Assuming the same rate as it took me to farm ember, we did that in about 4 hours, averaging 6 minutes a run. So 40 runs. 40 x 5 = 200 golem nav coordinates. With the rate of them dropping being 1-3 per mission, assuming an average of 2, thats 100 derelict exterminate runs. 5 regular nav coordinates per derelict exterminate run, thats 500 nav points to gather, or about 250 individual mission runs. We'll also need 900,000 (9000x100) nanospores, 500,000 (5000x100) salvage, and 70,000 (700 x 100) circuits to craft the regular derelict missions. Then we need the mats for the 40 assassinate missions, thats another 10,000x40 (400,000) nanospores, 5000x40 (200,000) salvage, and 3000x40 (120,000) circuits.

 

And then assuming I actually get the nav points, and we assume a 10 minute run per mission, 250 normal mission runs is then 2500 minutes, or 417 hours (I rounded 2/3rds decimal point up), for just the nav points. Assuming those runs go smoothly at 10 minutes a run, 100 derelict runs becomes 1000 minutes, or 17 (again rounded up) more hours, so total of 434 hours. Not including crafting time on the keys themselves.

 

So a grand total of 1,300,000 nanospores, 700,000 salvage, 190,000 circuits and 434 hours of running missions. Mind this can be split over 4 people, each person producing 10 assassin keys and sharing them with the preset group, and only spending 108.5 hours doing all the farming per person provided they all have the materials for the keys already, which is a possibility.

 

Even with that, the numbers start to look a bit depressing though, more so if you're someone like me who can't find a steady set of people to rely on and ends up soloing even the level 60+ stuff half the time, and can't find a pug on anything other then defense missions for the life of me. And this is also assuming the RNG doesn't decide to screw me over completely.

 

Feel free to double check my math and contradict me if I'm wrong though. But from the looks of things... to get nekros in a timely fashion without platnum, you have to make warframe your full time job. *flops.*

 

Your math is a bit off... shouldn't it be 41.6 hours?

 

2500 minutes / 60 = 41.66666666666667

 

You got  it right for the second part..

 

1000 minutes / 60 = 16.66666666666667

 

Either way, 41 hours or 400 that's way more time than I want to invest just for 1 single frame. That would be about 1/3 of the total play time I have in warframe and in that time I've farmed and maxed 8 warframes (some twice) and countless weapons. And it was mostly enjoyable. But I can't find it in me to grind 40+ hours just for 1 frame.

 

Not to mention the materials which would take another 100+ hours to get considering I haven't gotten a 10th of those numbers in around 150 hours.

Edited September 14, 2013 by f3llyn

[ThePresident777]

Update U10:  Revenge of the Nerfer King

[Tesseract_The_Pariah]

Ah sorry, didnt mean to be so grim, I'm so used to clueless companies, and I forgot about DE not being clueless . Look at how much their game has fundamentally improved, after all. And look at how they handle certain issues, true genius. I have faith that they will straighten this out.

[Genuinetheo]

It'd be okay if you didn't have to grind to access the new tileset, but grinding to get another chance at grinding is just plain ridiculous, the hell were they thinking.

 

Yeah what were they thinking, making a game entirely involved around grinding co-op missions with other players online and doing something like this; it's so irrational, not like them to be doing this to us. We don't like to wipe our own asses, we don't like challenges, and we are definitely bipolar. 

[nerfpls69]

Yeah what were they thinking, making a game entirely involved around grinding co-op missions with other players online and doing something like this; it's so irrational, not like them to be doing this to us. We don't like to wipe our own asses, we don't like challenges, and we are definitely bipolar. 

 

They're pretty much walling an entire update to make 3 levels of grind, it's kind of excessive, yeah.

[Gestalt]

Should just have the keys not be single use. Easy, simple solution that pleases everybody.

Hold up. That would please me personally for sure. Hell, that's probably please the majority of people. But then what's the point of coming up with this system in the first place? Then it'll just be a one-time grind to get the materials and components for the Golem key, and then it's the exact same thing as any previous boss.

I'm not saying I like the grindception idea, but simply making the keys unlimited use defeats the whole purpose of having keys in the first place.

Edit: Ok so let me just poop out a fast alternative here. How about drastically decrease the material requirements of the keys, all the way til it's very low but still non-trivial. Also, decrease the key build-time to something short like 10 minutes. Then we can keep the grindception system, but at least then it'll just be: build derelict keys, grind a few regular derelict games, build golem key, then fight golem. It'll be a LOT less taxing to players and at the same time not be just another boss-farm.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Gestalt

[FrostboundFlame]

Edit: Ok so let me just poop out a fast alternative here. How about drastically decrease the material requirements of the keys, all the way til it's very low but still non-trivial. Also, decrease the key build-time to something short like 10 minutes. Then we can keep the grindception system, but at least then it'll just be: build derelict keys, grind a few regular derelict games, build golem key, then fight golem. It'll be a LOT less taxing to players and at the same time not be just another boss-farm.

 

Honestly this would make a much better system. I'm just tired of people complaining just because it's a little bit hard to get something.

[Zamte]

Remember, DE's official philosophy on Warframe's sustainability is "paying real money buys convenience". So, until the day the model switches to "paying real money to get non-game-effecting cosmetic skins/effects/items" (and DE seems to be working on this), we're going to have to put up with these types of grind.

 

I'm fine with being able to buy convenience. Problem is that they're not just selling convenience, but also actively sabotaging the normal way.

 

I have no problem with spending two, three, or five hours on something I want. That's an acceptable trade in my opinion. You have dozens of things that can be earned in that time. I enjoy the game at that level. I don't find it to be a grind because I LIKE your gameplay.

 

However, let us do a little math...

 

10 runs of golem =

 

50 golem nav coordinate

70,000 nanospores

50,000 salvage

1,000 circuits

125,000 credits

30 hours

 

 

50 golem nav at 5 per run (likely higher than real rate) = 10 runs

 

50 nav coordinate

50,000 nanospores

50,000 salvage

800 circuits

115,000 credits

10 hours

 

 

50 nav at 5 per run (likely higher than real rate) = 10 runs

 

 

 

So 40 hours worth of crafting time on the keys, along with a total of 30 runs. Assuming 10 minutes per run this adds another 300 minutes, or five hours, for a total of...

 

 

 

120,000 nanospores

100,000 salvage

1,800 circuits

235,000 credits

45 hours

 

and that's an ideal scenerio. If we adjust it to two drops per run, and 30 runs to finish the frame the math changes to...

 

 

 

 

30 runs of golem =

 

150 golem nav coordinate

210,000 nanospores

150,000 salvage

3,000 circuits

375,000 credits

90 hours

 

 

150 golem nav at 2 per run = 75 runs

 

375 nav coordinate

375,000 nanospores

375,000 salvage

6,000 circuits

487,500 credits

75 hours

 

 

375 nav at 2 per run (likely higher than real rate) = 188

 

 

 

So 165 hours worth of crafting time on the keys, along with a total of 293 runs. Assuming 10 minutes per run this adds another 2930 minutes, or just under fifty hours, for a total of...

 

 

585,000 nanospores

525,000 salvage

9,000 circuits

862,500 credits

~214 hours

 

 

If either Scott or Steve can do this entire process, and still claim they find it to be fine, then I'll accept it. I don't think either of them could or would though. It's far, far too ridiculous.

[Darkmoone1]

Hold up. That would please me personally for sure. Hell, that's probably please the majority of people. But then what's the point of coming up with this system in the first place? Then it'll just be a one-time grind to get the materials and components for the Golem key, and then it's the exact same thing as any previous boss.

I'm not saying I like the grindception idea, but simply making the keys unlimited use defeats the whole purpose of having keys in the first place.

 The point of coming up with this system is that it.....well it sucked and was a mistake. XD If that suggestion you quoted would please a majority of people and makes the whole system irrelevant, then the system wasn't such a good idea in the first place was it?To  honest this system is just bad and never should have happened.

 

 Jupiter's tileset should've been replaced with the new one, have the old Golem as some sort of mini-boss that can still have its own drop system that leads to the new Golem that drops the new items. That way we can enjoy the new content without it being held hostage by grind walls.

[Xehalin]

But it still takes a long time to unlock the fight, so it's better just to do it as a one time use thing to unlock the fight and just farm it afterward.

[Genuinetheo]

They're pretty much walling an entire update to make 3 levels of grind, it's kind of excessive, yeah.

 

Walling? There's no "wall" anywhere here. None, whatsoever. The only "wall" I see are people polluting our good air with bad vibes. I'm not saying DE isn't following good public relations by serving their customers, but sometimes the complaints become so ridiculous themselves that you just have to ask yourself "Why?" Because there's no other way to look at it without laughing to keep yourself from tearing up.

 

Really: you're complaining about what, again? Not being able to complete the tileset when the update pulled through? Well gee, I don't ever remember playing a video game where they just handed me something and told me I was a winner. 

[f3llyn]

 

So 165 hours worth of crafting time on the keys, along with a total of 293 runs. Assuming 10 minutes per run this adds another 2930 minutes, or just under fifty hours, for a total of...

 

 

585,000 nanospores

525,000 salvage

9,000 circuits

862,500 credits

~214 hours

 

 

If either Scott or Steve can do this entire process, and still claim they find it to be fine, then I'll accept it. I don't think either of them could or would though. It's far, far too ridiculous.

 

 

That doesn't even take into consideration the time it would take to gather all those materials, either. Which you can tack on perhaps another 100 hours or more. Easily.

Edited September 14, 2013 by f3llyn

[OmegaDeity]

Hold up. That would please me personally for sure. Hell, that's probably please the majority of people. But then what's the point of coming up with this system in the first place? Then it'll just be a one-time grind to get the materials and components for the Golem key, and then it's the exact same thing as any previous boss.I'm not saying I like the grindception idea, but simply making the keys unlimited use defeats the whole purpose of having keys in the first place.Edit: Ok so let me just poop out a fast alternative here. How about drastically decrease the material requirements of the keys, all the way til it's very low but still non-trivial. Also, decrease the key build-time to something short like 10 minutes. Then we can keep the grindception system, but at least then it'll just be: build derelict keys, grind a few regular derelict games, build golem key, then fight golem. It'll be a LOT less taxing to players and at the same time not be just another boss-farm.

Or replace the J3 Golem with the new Golem and eliminate the assassination key. Have certain mods/weapons taken from Tower missions and put in the Derelict missions.

Grinding gets you mats for the Derelict Mission Keys, Tower is given as rewards. Splitting the mods alleviates some of the RNG cluster-duck. Put a credit and resource sink on the Golem mission. Say it's a bribe for a corpus informant in exchange for the coordinates of Golems ship.

[Jiala]

Your math is a bit off... shouldn't it be 41.6 hours?

 

2500 minutes / 60 = 41.66666666666667

 

You got  it right for the second part..

 

1000 minutes / 60 = 16.66666666666667

 

Either way, 41 hours or 400 that's way more time than I want to invest just for 1 single frame. That would be about 1/3 of the total play time I have in warframe and in that time I've farmed and maxed 8 warframes (some twice) and countless weapons. And it was mostly enjoyable. But I can't find it in me to grind 40+ hours just for 1 frame.

 

Not to mention the materials which would take another 100+ hours to get considering I haven't gotten a 10th of those numbers in around 150 hours.

Thanks for catching that, my bad. Must have put an extra zero on the calculator. 250,000 minutes would have been the 400 hour mark. Fixed it in the original post.

[f3llyn]

Thanks for catching that, my bad. Must have put an extra zero on the calculator. 250,000 minutes would have been the 400 hour mark. Fixed it in the original post.

 

To be fair 40 hours or 400 it makes no difference. It's an insane grind just for 1 frame.

[semigod22]

what? people need 1 run for a complete key? were the hell u search for the coords..

 

i did like 20 wave xini and got 1.

 

i did 2 normal missions and got nothing