Umbra or Prime

[DanteYoda]

Which came first... I understand the Primes are considered first but Ordis says in the quest that the sword predates anything in the Arsenal... Which includes Prime Warframes.. So asking here which is first Primes or Umbras..

Are Umbras Orokin prototypes that had Tenno issues so when the kids came along that could interface with them they made the Primes?

Edited January 26, 2019 by DanteYoda

[-VS-Airikr]

Excal Umbra in Sacrifice was when the Transference Concept was still very fresh as implied in the quest. It is not exactly clear but Ordis hints that Umbra was first because his weapon" predates everything in your [player's] arsenal" as ordis said. Whether it be just a mention towards your normal gear or if it includes your prime gear in the lore is unknown.

At least Excal Umbra was also more of a punishment against the Dax and being forced to be a toy for the Tenno, less than the other Primes were. So hopefully the next Umbra quest - if there is one to come - will clear it up more.

edit:

tl;dr - as of now it is unclear whether Umbra or Primes were first

Edited January 26, 2019 by Airikr

[(PSN)robotwars7]

i believe the events of the Sacrifice (the Dax and his son) happened first, or at the same time as the development of primes. the Sword itself, Skiajati, was likely used by the Dax throughout his career, long before his "illness", making it an early Orokin-Era weapon. Rhino Prime's Codex also describes the frame without an operator as a murderous beast, much like Umbra was, so you might be onto something there.

[DanteYoda]

Yes me and a friend were considering this and tbh we couldn't successfully come up with a definite answer ourselves so i decided to ask you guys here.

[iLightning13]

The way I understood it, the Umbras and Primes were created at similar times. We know that the Dax who was turned fought against the Sentients, so it would have been some time during the Old War. The main difference between the two is that Umbras were created by using a Transference bolt to force them to maintain consciousness during and after the turning process, as a form of torture.

[SneakyErvin]

I think the Umbra's came first, they fought the Sentients, then they rebeled and fought their masters, some getting broken and kept on a leash through transferance while others escaped or got destroyed. After that they created the primes, with proper transferance technology from the start and no human "host" inside.

[NocheLuz]

Remember Rhino Prime codex? The Transference project wasn't really in fully operational at that time but a lot of Frames already in production. They needed them because the War with Sentients. If we presume those failure of the Warframe as Primed version. Then yes, Prime is the first before Umbra. As those Prime are created before Transference project is in full operation.

Still, the War would go on for a certain peroid of time before the story of Umbra begin. Meaning that Transference project must have already been using in the War and Prime already in full prodection line. Because Ballas must have been already in contect with Sentients (or... Natah) and the Dax (Umbra) already doubt of Ballas betrayal. The matter about Ordis talking about it's predates any of player arsenal maybe because of him not being in the normal production line and all his arsenal are from the Warframe transformation.

[JackHargreav]

Good question. The tenno was mentioned in quest when Ballas was talking to the Dax so there is a possibility that actually they were created at the same time. Maybe turning some ppl into Umbra frames were a punishment. Even more than just turning them into normal warframes. Since Umbra frame/s suffer from one painful memory for the rest of their existence. And the only way to really stop the pain is to connect to a tenno.

[BloodKitten]

umbra was first, then the orikin had primes, i think.

Edited January 26, 2019 by BloodKitten

[Atsia]

While we can't say anything about Umbras  in general, Excal Umbra in specific was created after Warframes (Primes) had already be deployed and were fighting the Sentients. Umbra was specifically created as a punishment by Ballas for spying on him and finding out about his betrayal of the Orokin. This would've ( should've at least) taken place after Margulis had already died, which would've been after the Tenno had joined the war.

[(XBOX)SilverSurferGuy]

I have a theory. I’m not well versed in Warframe’s lore so correct me if I’m wrong. The sacrifice quest uncovered the truth behind a warframe. But I think both prime and umbra frames were developed at the same time. The the ones who were made into primes, did so willingly. A sacrifice. The ones made into umbra frames were those who were to be punished; reserved for the criminals and traitors of the orokin. A kind of death sentence where they become a shadow of their former self while playing their most painful memory over and over. They were left sentient on purpose as part of that punishment. As for Balas’ monologue about the monsters they couldn’t control, it refered to other umbras. But what about rhino primes codex entry? I think that at the time helminth hadn’t been perfected and the maliciousness of the infestation took over rhino prime.

[DanteYoda]

On 2019-01-27 at 5:21 AM, (XB1)SilverSurferGuy said:

I have a theory. I’m not well versed in Warframe’s lore so correct me if I’m wrong. The sacrifice quest uncovered the truth behind a warframe. But I think both prime and umbra frames were developed at the same time. The the ones who were made into primes, did so willingly. A sacrifice. The ones made into umbra frames were those who were to be punished; reserved for the criminals and traitors of the orokin. A kind of death sentence where they become a shadow of their former self while playing their most painful memory over and over. They were left sentient on purpose as part of that punishment. As for Balas’ monologue about the monsters they couldn’t control, it refered to other umbras. But what about rhino primes codex entry? I think that at the time helminth hadn’t been perfected and the maliciousness of the infestation took over rhino prime.

Interesting idea.. So Primes are considered the good and Umbra bad.. At the time..

[Gullim92]

Well, on one hand you have the comment about Umbra's sword being older than your entire arsenal, which may include primes. By that comment we can assume Umbra frames were developed first.

On the other hand however, we have Umbra's specialization against sentients, being able to naturally strip their resistances, while being more resistant to tau damage themselves. To me this implies Umbra frames were made after the primes, being an upgrade, since warframes were specifically made to fight sentients. It'd make sense for the Orokin to try and cram as much anti-sentient tech into the warframes as time went on.

[NocheLuz]

7 hours ago, Gullim92 said:

Well, on one hand you have the comment about Umbra's sword being older than your entire arsenal, which may include primes. By that comment we can assume Umbra frames were developed first.

Remember that ANY Dax weapons would be older than ANY Warframe Arsenal (as they are build for Tenno to be use in the War). Quote from Ordis 'This blade may pre-date everything in your arsenal.' it wouldn't be surprise the blade itself is older than anything the Tenno have.

Also, if the Excalibur Umbra is the 'First' Umbra. The Umbra definitely appear after Prime. Quote from Ballas 'But you won't have to imagine. A lovingly cultured Infestation swarms within your blood. Your transformation has begun, reshaping you into a sacred surrogate of the unholy Tenno... A Warframe with but a Single. Burning. Memory. It is... a miracle!' this implie that Tenno were already using Warframe and already deployed in the War.

As a side note. The Rhino Prime Codex didn't told that those failure of the Warframe have Transference Bolt in them (they definitely don't... as Transference project do not fully start yet, the Tenno still get lock up in experiment). I think we can safely assume they are not Umbra series.

[CaptainJLP]

Umbra would be somewhat near first, he is using a different and more than most likely older version of a transference bolt: 'Uncertain if any Tenno has linked with this design. The Transference bolt seems different, but we cannot build this without more data' which allows him to be sentient (work without an operator), primes could be said to come out later as their transference bolt doesn't allow for sentience. However that does also mean there were other warframes back before he became one. As the reply above states above there could have been other types of warframes prior to him.

[Kaotyke]

No. Umbra as not the first. Nowhere near close.

Ballas was turned traitor and the Dax that Umbra once was, was gathering evidence against him. Ballas specifically has a line saying that he "will become a sacred surrogate of the unholy Tenno". The war was in full swing and the Tenno were already in combat.

And Primes, I dont believe they were the first either. Only if you discount the prototypes. The Primes were those Warframes blinged with gold to fill the astetic of the Orokin and to appeal their "Vain faith".

[Atsia]

6 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

No. Umbra as not the first. Nowhere near close.

Ballas was turned traitor and the Dax that Umbra once was, was gathering evidence against him. Ballas specifically has a line saying that he "will become a sacred surrogate of the unholy Tenno". The war was in full swing and the Tenno were already in combat.

And Primes, I dont believe they were the first either. Only if you discount the prototypes. The Primes were those Warframes blinged with gold to fill the astetic of the Orokin and to appeal their "Vain faith".

I mean, IIRC, Primes are the original designs for weapons/frames,  we and others just don't/didn't have the tech and materials needed to replicate it 1 for 1.

[NightmareT12]

7 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

No. Umbra as not the first. Nowhere near close.

Ballas was turned traitor and the Dax that Umbra once was, was gathering evidence against him. Ballas specifically has a line saying that he "will become a sacred surrogate of the unholy Tenno". The war was in full swing and the Tenno were already in combat.

That is correct! Remember this line fellow Tenno: "I've had lifetimes to plan my defection".

9 minutes ago, Atsia said:

I mean, IIRC, Primes are the original designs for weapons/frames,  we and others just don't/didn't have the tech and materials needed to replicate it 1 for 1.

Exactly!

https://www.warframe.com/news/primes-and-prime-access

Quote

WHAT IS A PRIME?
Prime Warframes, Weapons and Sentinels are actual pieces of Ancient Orokin technology. These elite intricately gilded items have highly advantageous qualities and feature added polarity slots – allowing you to equip more powerful Mods and saving space in your MOD Capacity.

Non-Prime Warframes, Weapons and Sentinels are based on Orokin technology, however they are not genuine Orokin articles.

Glad to see people start to grasp some things ;W;

Edited January 28, 2019 by NightmareT12

[GTX49]

Well i think the whole concept of "umbra" is a Warframe without an operator.. a Warframe with conscious

 

[Gullim92]

12 hours ago, NocheLuz said:

Remember that ANY Dax weapons would be older than ANY Warframe Arsenal (as they are build for Tenno to be use in the War). Quote from Ordis 'This blade may pre-date everything in your arsenal.' it wouldn't be surprise the blade itself is older than anything the Tenno have.

Also, if the Excalibur Umbra is the 'First' Umbra. The Umbra definitely appear after Prime. Quote from Ballas 'But you won't have to imagine. A lovingly cultured Infestation swarms within your blood. Your transformation has begun, reshaping you into a sacred surrogate of the unholy Tenno... A Warframe with but a Single. Burning. Memory. It is... a miracle!' this implie that Tenno were already using Warframe and already deployed in the War.

As a side note. The Rhino Prime Codex didn't told that those failure of the Warframe have Transference Bolt in them (they definitely don't... as Transference project do not fully start yet, the Tenno still get lock up in experiment). I think we can safely assume they are not Umbra series.

The sword is also stated to be "grafted from Umbra's flesh"...whatever that means, but I don't think it was used by the Dax soldier before being turned into a warframe. I think this means the sword was literally made from repurposed golden bits and infested...stuff...from Umbra after his transformation, which then predates any warframe weaponry, including Primes.

I'll agree that Ballas's line makes it sound like the warframes were already being used in the war, but there's still some room for interpretation. I myself interpret that quote like you do, I think it implies the warframes were already a thing, but it's not 100% guaranteed IMO.

 

Until we get more info on what exactly Umbra's are, we won't know for certain. Besides, Excal could be a very unique case, since Ballas was quite personally involved in his transformation.

[DanteYoda]

5 hours ago, GTX49 said:

Well i think the whole concept of "umbra" is a Warframe without an operator.. a Warframe with conscious

 

I believe they all have people inside them with consciousness.. Even standard warframes were ex people, turned by the virus. I don't think a warframe would function with a tenno without one, remember in the story your warframe actually gets up and carries you when you are injured, that means it has its own free will when it needs to..

For me it was Nezha.. which is a basic frame. We (operator) did not make it do that.

[NocheLuz]

4 hours ago, Gullim92 said:

The sword is also stated to be "grafted from Umbra's flesh"...whatever that means, but I don't think it was used by the Dax soldier before being turned into a warframe. I think this means the sword was literally made from repurposed golden bits and infested...stuff...from Umbra after his transformation, which then predates any warframe weaponry, including Primes.

I'll agree that Ballas's line makes it sound like the warframes were already being used in the war, but there's still some room for interpretation. I myself interpret that quote like you do, I think it implies the warframes were already a thing, but it's not 100% guaranteed IMO.

 

Until we get more info on what exactly Umbra's are, we won't know for certain. Besides, Excal could be a very unique case, since Ballas was quite personally involved in his transformation.

It's still stand that they're older than Any Warframe Arsenal though... Remember the line I said that Warframe Arsenal build to be use in the War? While we know that most thing in Orokin do have biological parts (even tower... like Unum). I would assume that even Weapons are build into them (I wouldn't go as far as Ordan fighting method, but it's just assume). Meaning that Warframe weapon use conventional method of fighting (needed to be carry into mission). This is just assume but I think there are evidences all over the place.

Also, Ballas Quote have a lot of evidances that implied Tenno already use in the War. Because Margulis would never turn Tenno into War potential. Meaning she already been jade light and Ballas took over Transference Project. While Margulis alive she already witness Tenno use Transference into Warframe (the failure one) and Ballas want to use them in the War. Maybe he even deploy some into the War without Margulis knowing. But I would assume that after Margulis is gone, Ballas would go all out with Transference project and using the Warframe in the War. BUT!! hold on... Ballas still do everything to fight Sentients... even created the Tenno. I would assume that Ballas still not thinking of betraying the Orokin at this point. That also mean he's still not contact Sentients (Natah). Because Natah got send to spy the Tenno after they got repel to outer terminal.

However, he never said Natah in the dialog. Only Hunhow... I would assume Hunhow still not send Natah to the Tenno (maybe he send Natah because of Ballas information). Quote from Ballas 'Distorted by vague horrors, we kept the Zariman survivors within a secret Reservoir. They were the missing half. Transference-linked: the Warframes, the body - and they, the mind. I give you now the coordinates and codes to this place. But do not underestimate these devils, Hunhow. They did what we could not. We had created monsters we couldn't--' From this we can safely assume that Tenno is in full operational, use in the War and have a base in the Moon. They did what Orokin could not, I would say he talking about controling the Warframe... or driving out the Sentients... either one of these... maybe both.

Although, I would agree that we can't say for 100% sure. But it's still high chance (maybe over 80%) from the evidances. Well, maybe until DE want to throw us over with another non-sense storyline (lol)... Like changing Warframe from have a human inside into Transference (lol)...

[Urlan]

10 hours ago, NightmareT12 said:

That is correct! Remember this line fellow Tenno: "I've had lifetimes to plan my defection".

Exactly!

https://www.warframe.com/news/primes-and-prime-access

Glad to see people start to grasp some things ;W;

The Umbra Excalibur was created from the Old Dax in the tail end of the Old War after Ballas went traitor, this makes him becoming a warframe younger than warframes in general but Ordis's line could be instead referencing how most of our stuff aside our starting warframe are crafted from blueprints post waking up quite a long time post Old War. We know from Sacrifice, Rhino prime codex entry, and such that Ballas authorized Bio-Drones before the warframes were created for the Tenno by Margulis's project using Archimedian Silvana (From Silver Grove). Bio-Drones or Proto Warframes were made from Volunteers "willing or unwilling" exposed to strains of technocyte created by Helminth and in the Rhino prime codex entry it shows one of these subjects being allowed to escape and interact with Tenno being held in cold-storage long after the events of the Zariman Ten-0. We could control or at least calm the infested organism. After the report of the researchers, Ballas allowed Archimedian of the Mind, Margulis to take the Tenno under her wing and rehabilitate them.

To this end, Margulis recruited Silvana to construct surrogate bodies or vessels without a will for the Tenno to control to interact with the world. During this time, Margulis put blocks on the Tenno psyches to restrict their direct Void powers and created transference bolt and somatic systems to better allow direct control of the surrogates designed by Silvana. This worked as we can read from the Silver Grove apothics but eventually Ballas had the project re-focused into weaponizing the children using these Surrogates which Ballas re-termed Warframes Silvana herself being tasked with pumping out new designs. Overtime, Silvana, who had originally hid on the Earth trying to study and cure its decay and not having the heart for more military and suffering type matters decided to experiment with seeing if she could try to attempt transference without the direct Void link of the Tenno using her last Warframe design, Titania as a filter. After presenting this warframe to Ballas, she escaped taking several somatics and returning to Earth eventually her body being killed during a transference attempt to merge with what became known as the Silver Grove by Dax sent by Ballas. The Titania Silvana took, her last design was what we would call a non-prime warframe as per the blueprints we receive during the quest.  Primes don't have much to support them being before Silvana's designs, but could have come about as improvements or ace customs for particularly favored Tenno as Wyrm prime suggests or like any warframes made after Titania would have had to be made by someone that Ballas appointed after Silvana went AWOL.

[NocheLuz]

21 minutes ago, Urlan said:

The Titania Silvana took, her last design was what we would call a non-prime warframe as per the blueprints we receive during the quest.  Primes don't have much to support them being before Silvana's designs, but could have come about as improvements or ace customs for particularly favored Tenno as Wyrm prime suggests or like any warframes made after Titania would have had to be made by someone that Ballas appointed after Silvana went AWOL.

TBH, Prime don't have to be first. From in-game descrption, Prime meaning anything builded using Orokin Technology. They even said Tenno once possess the ability to build prime weapons of themself. But got lose over the time. That would answer most question about Prime and non-prime part.

This is my mistake that I once believe that Prime would mean first... But I now know that Prime meaning anything builded using the Orokin Technology... They don't have to be the first, just using the Orokin Tech-parts is fine to be called Prime.

[Atsia]

15 minutes ago, NocheLuz said:

TBH, Prime don't have to be first. From in-game descrption, Prime meaning anything builded using Orokin Technology. They even said Tenno once possess the ability to build prime weapons of themself. But got lose over the time. That would answer most question about Prime and non-prime part.

This is my mistake that I once believe that Prime would mean first... But I now know that Prime meaning anything builded using the Orokin Technology... They don't have to be the first, just using the Orokin Tech-parts is fine to be called Prime.

After a quick glance augment the wiki, it (kinda) confirms that Prime would be first as the original Orokin design. Non- primes follow that design, but don't use the original Orokin tech.