Eidolon fight fix: shards on the altar always summon

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

The Eidolon fights only being available on Cetus's weirdly short night cycle is now just annoying given the orb fight can be any time.

So a proposed fix: 

Make putting shards on the altar summon Harry/Garry any time.

Then we could always have the fight, if we have the shards, but starting players would have the same initial experience.

This would require some additional changes:

- Lures would have to always spawn.

- Vomvalysts would start daytime spawning as soon as you hack a lure or place the shard on the altar.

- Terry would only free roam at night.

- Attacking Terry would lock the altar from working until it's defeated.

- This would allow players who already had shards (from defeating Terry in a previous session) to jump straight to the Garry fight.

- Optionally the current plains instance could switch to night as soon as the shard is placed.

This would make it much easier to find and coordinate a team for the boss fight, and would reduce the toxic elements in this particular community. By removing the single night constraint you remove a lot of the frustration that currently causes abuse directed at players still learning it (not that I'm excusing the abusers) because their slower/failed takedown resulted in a ruined session for the expert.

[(PSN)OriginalEquinox]

Being able to manually summon the Eidolons during the day would certainly be helpful for a lot of players. Maybe the Hydrolist could drop a special shard similar to transmutators as a unique capture reward so players can use those to summon a Eidolon at any time, but considering they hate the light i don't know how it would make sense for them to spawn during the day and us being able to change the day/night cycle willy nilly doesn't sound like the answer

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Equinox21697 said:

considering they hate the light i don't know how it would make sense for them to spawn during the day and us being able to change the day/night cycle willy nilly doesn't sound like the answer

I'm not sure Earth having an 8 hour day-night cycle does either, they just shorten it so that it's more obvious to players. Given that they already artificially change day/night for gameplay reasons I don't really see a problem here either 🙂

[Me.KayOh]

13 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I'm not sure Earth having an 8 hour day-night cycle does either, they just shorten it so that it's more obvious to players. Given that they already artificially change day/night for gameplay reasons I don't really see a problem here either 🙂

Well, Earth in the game has a shorter night cycle and a longer day cycle. But it's still a 24-hour cycle. Also, the Sol System is vastly differently from the actual solar system and there could be any number of reasons as to why in-game night on the Earth is much shorter than the day. Maybe the moon missing for such a long time has something to do with it? I don't know.

But I believe what that other person was referring to was that it since the eidolons hate light, it would always have to be summoned in the dark, meaning that it would have to be night time. And the only way around that would be if the players were able to manipulate the day/night cycles on a whim. That sounds highly problematic to me.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

3 hours ago, Me.Church said:

Well, Earth in the game has a shorter night cycle and a longer day cycle.

So it's always summer?

3 hours ago, Me.Church said:

Also, the Sol System is vastly differently from the actual solar system

It isn't. It's just far in the future. Vastly changed by Orokin tech and millions of years, but same system. Earth might be spinning incredibly fast, but it would still have either summer/winter or equal day/night.

3 hours ago, Me.Church said:

But I believe what that other person was referring to was that it since the eidolons hate light, it would always have to be summoned in the dark

I'm summoning them to kill them, I don't care if it upsets them 🙂

3 hours ago, Me.Church said:

And the only way around that would be if the players were able to manipulate the day/night cycles on a whim

It is a game, I don't see a problem with this.

We already have cannon day/night manipulation in the Vallis, where it's rotation of an orbital mirror. We could argue that the summoning process sends a signal to some ancient Orokin reflector that eclipses the sun over Cetus for a while.

[Me.KayOh]

9 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

So it's always summer?

Yes? You want it to be winter in Cetus sometimes? There's no telling what the tilt of the planet is at the moment. But maybe that's something you can ask the developers. Also ask them why it's always summer in Cetus while you're at it....Why you expect it to the same as the real world is puzzling. Because as you said it, it is a game.

9 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

It isn't. It's just far in the future. Vastly changed by Orokin tech and millions of years, but same system. Earth might be spinning incredibly fast, but it would still have either summer/winter or equal day/night.

This is a joke right? Because I find this absolutely hilarious.

9 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I'm summoning them to kill them, I don't care if it upsets them 🙂

It's more like the sunlight is inhibitive to its technology in the sense that, maybe if one were to try to summon it during the day, nothing would happen. But that's what I gathered when they introduced Eidolons and they can always redact that I suppose.

9 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

It is a game, I don't see a problem with this.

We already have cannon day/night manipulation in the Vallis, where it's rotation of an orbital mirror. We could argue that the summoning process sends a signal to some ancient Orokin reflector that eclipses the sun over Cetus for a while.

If you can't see the problem with giving players the ability to change the global day/night cycle of a hub area, I honestly have no idea what to tell you.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Me.Church

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

What about an optional PoE node that is only available if you have the Brilliant/Radiant shard equipped in your gear wheel? Same goes for your squad, everyone has to have the shard equipped or it's not available.

It would be always night, but once you spawn in the 50-minute counter starts so you have to actually beat the Eidolon. And maybe some sort of cooldown.

Thoughts?

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

2 hours ago, Me.Church said:

If you can't see the problem with giving players the ability to change the global day/night cycle of a hub area,

They don't need to change the hub, just the instance they in. PoE isn't really an open world, it's just a really big 4 player map, and as such switching to night is not really any more than a stalker invasion.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

It would be always night, but once you spawn in the 50-minute counter starts so you have to actually beat the Eidolon. And maybe some sort of cooldown

Er, fine. That'd do I'd guess. I don't really see the point of the timer though. It's the time limit that exacerbates the toxic behaviour against players new to the fight, I think we'd be better off without it.

2 hours ago, Me.Church said:

This is a joke right? Because I find this absolutely hilarious

I'm here all week! 😉

Seriously though: I thought it was canon that the game was set in our far future?

[Me.KayOh]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

They don't need to change the hub, just the instance they in. PoE isn't really an open world, it's just a really big 4 player map, and as such switching to night is not really any more than a stalker invasion.

Instances are created within the hub. Cetus and PoE are one and are on the same global time cycle. Currently you cannot manipulate the time in the instances because its based on the global day/night cycle of Cetus. Everything begins at the same time and ends at the same time. To be able to manipulate the time as you want, you would need a node separate from Cetus/PoE. A node that does not run on a global timer. A node where the time is dependent on the instance created. That way, anyone can manipulate the time as they please.

10 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I'm here all week! 😉

Seriously though: I thought it was canon that the game was set in our far future?

You don't seem to understand the paradoxical nature of what you wrote. 🤷‍♂️

Edited January 29, 2019 by Me.Church

[Me.KayOh]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

What about an optional PoE node that is only available if you have the Brilliant/Radiant shard equipped in your gear wheel? Same goes for your squad, everyone has to have the shard equipped or it's not available.
 

See this person understands!

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

8 hours ago, Me.Church said:

Instances are created within the hub. Cetus and PoE are one and are on the same global time cycle. Currently you cannot manipulate the time in the instances because its based on the global day/night cycle of Cetus.

The hub is just a level, like the relays, while the plains is just a very big 4 player map. They're not connected in code, which is why you have to reload between them. They're on the same timers, but as soon as you step in to the plains you're in a level instance and nothing you do affects anyone in any other instance.

Jump into any other Earth node and it'll be on a different day/night cycle to Cetus, even if it's at a similar longitude.

To trigger the altar everyone in the current instance has to add a shard - there no real open world players milling about who'll be surprised by the change, they'll be in their own, unaffected, instances.

[Me.KayOh]

7 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

The hub is just a level, like the relays, while the plains is just a very big 4 player map. They're not connected in code, which is why you have to reload between them. They're on the same timers, but as soon as you step in to the plains you're in a level instance and nothing you do affects anyone in any other instance.

All the instances created in PoE are subsets of Cetus/PoE cycle and as such run on the same global timer. This is why when night is over in PoE, it's also over in Cetus, because they are connected by one global cycle that cannot be manipulated per instance. When you create an instance in PoE, it currently does not leave the subset and become a bubble independent of the global timer. It's still on the global timer.

When night time starts in the instance I am in, in PoE, it also starts for the instance every other player is in, in PoE. The PoE time is the same for every instance created because it is controlled by the global timer for the PoE node, in which all instances exist. You have to load between Cetus and PoE because they are separate nodes. Separate nodes that share ONE global timer. I would say this in another language if I could, but I don't know any other languages.

7 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Jump into any other Earth node and it'll be on a different day/night cycle to Cetus, even if it's at a similar longitude.

LMAO. What? Similar longitude? Any other Earth node?

If it's not Cetus or PoE, "any other" Earth node is independent of Cetus and PoE and runs on the global Earth day/night cycle which is different and completely separate from Cetus' day/night cycle. 

Because you know, Earth has it's own day/night cycle, that every Earth node shares except Cetus and PoE. "Each cycle lasts 4 hours.  Totaling 6 cycles per day, always switching from Night to Day, then back to Night and so on."

I honestly have to say you're beginning to sound like you have no idea what you're talking about.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

1 hour ago, Me.Church said:

All the instances created in PoE are subsets of Cetus/PoE cycle and as such run on the same global timer

Where do you get this "subset" idea from? You can enter/leave the plains without passing through Cetus. They're straight up different instances.

Yeah, you keep saying "global timer" like it's some kind of authority. The game can set whatever time it wants for anything. The only clock is the network, and all the cycled instances just check that, and ignore it in certain circumstances - for instance there are story missions (like the Sacrifice) that play out at day or night depending on the story, not the current system time.

It even does this on the plains in the last mission of Saya's Vigil quest when you're sent to scan the Teralyst - it switches to night even if Cetus was in day when you stepped through the gates.

1 hour ago, Me.Church said:

LMAO. What? Similar longitude? Any other Earth node?

If it's not Cetus or PoE, "any other" Earth node is independent of Cetus and PoE and runs on the global Earth day/night cycle which is different and completely separate from Cetus' day/night cycle. 

Yes, but they're also on a map. You see it every time you pick a node. Mantle and Cambria are in the same time zone, Gaia, Mariana and E Prime are a few zones either way. 

It looks like you're arguing that the Plains day/night cycle can't be changed for software (all the points about subsets and global timers) or some kind of immersion - like "this is what nodes on Earth do!" as if that can't be changed with a few lines of code.

Spawning an instance of the plains at a different point in the cycle is trivial. We've seen devstreams on both plains and the Vallis where they've changed the time mid mission. We've seen it in quests that we've all played. It's clearly possible technically.

1 hour ago, Me.Church said:

Earth has it's own day/night cycle, that every Earth node shares except Cetus and PoE. "Each cycle lasts 4 hours.  Totaling 6 cycles per day, always switching from Night to Day, then back to Night and so on."

I'm honestly finding your immersion argument more confusing. It's a game with maps that have shifted over time and clearly have no relationship between apparent geographic proximity and cycles.

Clearly these rules are arbitrary, and given that what's the argument against changing the plains for convenient boss fights?

 

[Me.KayOh]

51 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Where do you get this "subset" idea from?

Venn Diagram. It's a mathematical thing and it's how instances are formed within Nodes. Whatever laws govern that one node, govern all instances in PoE. If you place options on the nodes, as done with nightmare mode, then its different. No options, no variance.

53 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

They're straight up different instances.

They're different nodes but tied to the same cycle. See previous posts for further clarification.

54 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Yeah, you keep saying "global timer" like it's some kind of authority.

It is. See my first response above.

54 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

It even does this on the plains in the last mission of Saya's Vigil quest when you're sent to scan the Teralyst - it switches to night even if Cetus was in day when you stepped through the gates.

Saya's vigil is a staged quest with set pieces that are independent of the global day/night cycle of PoE and Cetus and for all intents and purposes, independent of Cetus and PoE as a hub/free roam area.

57 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Yes, but they're also on a map. You see it every time you pick a node. Mantle and Cambria are in the same time zone, Gaia, Mariana and E Prime are a few zones either way. 

Doesn't matter what "time zone" it appears to be in on the planet in-game. That's merely visual representation and in no way, shape or form are the day/night cycles of all the other Earth nodes related to the day/night cycle of Cetus/PoE. Like I said before, they are independent.

59 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

It looks like you're arguing that the Plains day/night cycle can't be changed for software (all the points about subsets and global timers) or some kind of immersion - like "this is what nodes on Earth do!" as if that can't be changed with a few lines of code.

It really can't be changed with a "few lines of code". Programming is not magic. If you feel it's that simple, then that all but confirms that you really do not know what you are talking about.

1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Spawning an instance of the plains at a different point in the cycle is trivial. We've seen devstreams on both plains and the Vallis where they've changed the time mid mission. We've seen it in quests that we've all played. It's clearly possible technically.

This is called a console command implemented on the dev build. Anything can be hacked into the game on the dev build. Also you don't even know if the console command used to changed the time was for that instance, or for the entire dev build as I feel would have been the case since the evidence we have is again, the global day/night cycle. As for the quests, see my previous response to Saya's Vigil changing the time.

1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

It's clearly possible technically.

Anything is possible technically. It doesn't mean it's simple to implement with a "few lines of code".

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I'm honestly finding your immersion argument more confusing. It's a game with maps that have shifted over time and clearly have no relationship between apparent geographic proximity and cycles.

Can you tell yourself this? Because I'm not the one talking about time zones and where this node is and that node is and questioning why the night cycle is shorter than the day cycle in PoE. That's all you. In fact, I've made no comments about immersion thus far and find this point 100% irrelevant to what I stated. What I stated is simply what exists in the game. Earth has a day/night cycle independent from Cetus/PoE day/night cycle. End of discussion.

1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Clearly these rules are arbitrary, and given that what's the argument against changing the plains for convenient boss fights?

No these rules are not arbitrary. Everything done in the game is by design in order to encourage gameplay in a certain length of time with freedoms being style of play, goals, etc. 

There's no argument. If after all this you're missing the point, I wouldn't know what to tell you.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

2 hours ago, Me.Church said:

Saya's vigil is a staged quest with set pieces that are independent of the global day/night cycle of PoE and Cetus and for all intents and purposes, independent of Cetus and PoE as a hub/free roam area.

It is a quest, but not independent. You can run into other players in the hub.

The point is that DE can switch the time when it suits them. There's no technical reason the game is incapable of doing it. It already does it.

2 hours ago, Me.Church said:

What I stated is simply what exists in the game. Earth has a day/night cycle independent from Cetus/PoE day/night cycle. End of discussion.

I don't think anyone is disputing that is how it is currently configured.

2 hours ago, Me.Church said:

Everything done in the game is by design in order to encourage gameplay in a certain length of time with freedoms being style of play, goals, etc. 

Oh my sweet summer child! You haven't been playing this very long, have you? Warframe is a huge stack of connected elements, some of which are amazing, but many of which are a mess (including Lunaro, Conclave, Arching, numerous broken weapons, flakey quests) all piled on top of each other. They're incredibly bad at going back to tidy up old content and have gone in several directions over the years.

Day/night cycles were almost certainly added because someone thought it was cool at the time, and probably out of sync because the Earth tilesets and PoE were added years apart.

2 hours ago, Me.Church said:

In fact, I've made no comments about immersion thus far and find this point 100% irrelevant to what I stated.

What is your point then? You keep stating the current configuration as if it is somehow cannon - why does that matter?

2 hours ago, Me.Church said:

It really can't be changed with a "few lines of code". Programming is not magic. If you feel it's that simple, then that all but confirms that you really do not know what you are talking about

Tell me about it, I'm a software engineer 🙂

I doubt this change (either altars always working or some way to start the mission at night with shards in gear) is a few lines of code.

However, is also isn't a massive or risky change (probably) given that dev builds can change on the fly and quest instances can be spawned that force the plains to night.

 

Edited January 29, 2019 by (XB1)KayAitch

[Me.KayOh]

1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Tell me about it, I'm a software engineer 🙂

This is terrifying and disappointing at the same time if true.

 

Oh and if you want a response to all the other vitriol you posted, please help yourself to one of my previous posts. Getting a bit tired of repeating myself.