Nassive logic flaw with Lotus and the Sentients ( Second dream, War within and Sacrifice spoilers )

[EsperSparks]

SO i made this argument a little mroe than a week ago but it relay needs to get out there so people can think and fix this logic flaw about warframe.
lemme jut point out the mega flaw in the "lotus was always evil" shtik we're apparently going with here if she was always double crossing us- rather than killing us all when the tenno were weaker and mostly all factions were gone, she waited for the factions to rise in power and give rise to others, she waited for the infested to not only be revitalized but enhanced and she waited for the tenno to obtain weaponry and sentient effective weapons as well as for corpus to replicate and re-engineer sentient tech- i can keep going if you want she let her fathers death come for nothing and protected us from the stalker- WE COULD HAVE DIED THERE BUT SHE KEPT US ALIVE yet apparently all this time shes been using us and shes actually just a generic sentient enemy manipulating us all to make us weaker ... now then if im not missing something this leaves two possibilities:
A. De has poorly written the lotus into being an enemy and have shown us that they are rather terrible lore writers when it comes to actual detailed villians ( it almost feels like they shoe horned the idea into concept )
B. The decision was somewhat planned but poorly executed- the lotus was never designed to be our enemy but was rewritten into being one for us to fight due to some spur of the moment changes to the game's lore
C. Ballas doesn't know the full side of the story and shes not our enemy- maybe mind controlled because she was "reclaimed" by her mother just as hunhow warned the lotus about in the second dream- and we might even have the choice to try to save her.


PLEASE tell me what you think about this for me i'm seeing a huge flaw in the story that's ruining the lotus and the sentients, my favorite faction well second favorite faction in the game- next to infested they're really tied i mean for me.
any thoughts on the discussion or ideas to help with this say below- but try to avoid any fighting I remember the toxicity of the ember deluxe change forums not only did nothing good come of it it just proved how cancerous and white knighty people can be .. if that's a word

yada yada have a good evening everyone

[Dhrekr]

8 minutes ago, EsperSparks said:

lemme jut point out the mega flaw in the "lotus was always evil" shtik we're apparently going

Well, I can point out with the problem with your logics. It's simple. We're not going with a simple "lotus was always evil" story. Duh.

 

No, seriously. Oh, I know that there's a bunch of players who like to scream that the Lotus is evil. But what has she done against us? After protecting, saving, guiding the Tenno for thousands of years, she has done no thing against the Tenno (well, she has left, but out of necessity and not enmity). In The Sacrifice, she appears, says that she's sad, calls you "my child" and concludes that there's a couple of things she has to do. She is hardly hostile to the Tenno.

(Of course, she is hostile to Ballas, but that's more than ok in my book).

 

Listen, the story of the Lotus isn't finished. Lotus is a complex character with a conflicted past, conflicting motivations, and her own agenda.

And I think DE knows what they are doing. They are allowed to write twists into their story, you know.

19 minutes ago, EsperSparks said:

but try to avoid any fighting I remember the toxicity of the ember deluxe change forums

Small tip for you: if you want to avoid fighting, try not writing sensationalistic click-baity titles. There is no "massive logic flaw" here. If you write a title like that you can be certain that people are just going to come to your thread very polarized and very happy to respond with some equally emotionalised answer.

[Drachnyn]

Your last option isn't really a plothole. Ballas himself said he doesn't know what the bigger picture is. Also Hunhow said he wanted to reclaim her for the sentients but it was Ballas that succeeded. She may very well be so far advanced in being a double agent that she loops back around to our side.

My assumption is: Nataah succeeded in being the perfect double agent orchestrating the fall of the Orokin through the Tenno. Whoever Sentient that she was she developed feelings for the Tenno (which was kinda part of her job in simulating Margulis). That turned her the first time.

Hunhow tries to reconnect fully with her but is stopped before he can achieve that. 

Being on our side as she was at the time she helps us build up our arsenal again.

Ballas catches wind of her location and forces her back into the Nataah state but as the double agent that she is she remains on our side at heart.

However under the close watch of "the mother" she has no direct option to helps us anymore so before she can reveal herself, she needs us to destroy the mother first.

There may very well come plotholes but that is not decided just yet. If you want to diskuss bad writing look to the "new strange" quest. To this day that chroma is piloted by plotholes.

 

[WhiteMarker]

26 minutes ago, EsperSparks said:

C. Ballas doesn't know the full side of the story and shes not our enemy- maybe mind controlled because she was "reclaimed" by her mother just as hunhow warned the lotus about in the second dream- and we might even have the choice to try to save her.

Ballas isn't the one that doesn't know the whole story.
It's you. You don't know the full story. You just assume that there is a flaw in the logic. You are seeing such a flaw because you don't know the whole picture.

If you only saw the first 10 minutes of a film, you wouldn't know how everything plays out at the end. All these films would be full of logic flaws. But if you watch a film completely, then everything gets explained. (Ok, some films don't follow this rule, but you will get my point)

Just wait for all the quests to be released. After that we can talk about flaws.

[Chewarette]

Where is the flaw ? She has a massive personality disorder. She was not "evil" from the beginning, she was doing her "Lotus" job. As soon as she lost her helmet, she started doing her "Natah" job.

Keep in mind that in this war, you always think the opponents are evil, but in the end everyone/nobody is.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Chewarette

[rand0mname]

I can not understand what OP is trying to say.

"Nassive".

Edited January 28, 2019 by rand0mname

[-AiLuoLi-]

The story isn't even done yet.....

[Kaotyke]

41 minutes ago, rand0mname said:

I can not understand what OP is trying to say.

"Nassive".

Its being so massive its nasal.

[Loza03]

"The Lotus seduced the Tenno, led them down a complacent path like Oxen." ~Teshin

"They seduced you, used you, took away your fire." ~"Mother."

[Yxivi]

No, the Lotus is just having her monthly visit. You know, women they can be quite complicated. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Ryusuta]

Honestly, I feel DE wrote themselves into a corner. I honestly don't know if I'd be more disappointed with "Lotus was evil all along," or "Lotus was on your side all along and just PRETENDED to be evil." Or even "You were mislead into thinking the Lotus is evil because Ballas plotwriting and stuff."

I legit can't think of an outcome to this that would make me like, trust, or even want to SEE the Lotus ever again.

[WhiteMarker]

43 minutes ago, Ryusuta said:

Honestly, I feel DE wrote themselves into a corner. I honestly don't know if I'd be more disappointed with "Lotus was evil all along," or "Lotus was on your side all along and just PRETENDED to be evil." Or even "You were mislead into thinking the Lotus is evil because Ballas plotwriting and stuff."

I legit can't think of an outcome to this that would make me like, trust, or even want to SEE the Lotus ever again.

And what about Lotus was brainwashed?
So she is good, but as of right now, because of the brainwashing, she has to do evil?

And let's behonest right here. Every possible storyline was there already. It's impossible to write something new and innovative. In the end there will always be someone disappointed.
I'm not saying that your opinion is wrong. It's your opinion. I'm just saying that if you weren't disappointed, someone else would be. And again, no innovation in storytelling anymore.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 hours ago, EsperSparks said:

PLEASE tell me what you think about this for me i'm seeing a huge flaw in the story that's ruining the lotus and the sentients, my favorite faction well second favorite faction in the game- next to infested they're really tied i mean for me.

You're seeing a huge flaw that's not actually there. 

3 hours ago, EsperSparks said:

lemme jut point out the mega flaw in the "lotus was always evil" shtik we're apparently going with here if she was always double crossing us-

First off, I don't think that DE has created any absolute good/evil conditions in the game. It's always been shades of grey, nuanced and open to interpretation. And seriously, the vast majority of the people who are screeching about how she has always been double crossing us, obviously weren't paying any attention to the plot as it developed. 

3 hours ago, EsperSparks said:

A. De has poorly written the lotus into being an enemy and have shown us that they are rather terrible lore writers when it comes to actual detailed villians ( it almost feels like they shoe horned the idea into concept )

You're used to pulp fiction, and Hollywood making overly simple villains, some gunslinger dressed in black, that you can set your sights on, as the source of all of the problems which miraculously go away once that person is destroyed. Warframe isn't doing that. 

Detailed villains, typically aren't villains at all. They have other motivation than "I am evil". How many times have you seen serial killers or whatever, locked up and all the neighbours say "I would have never suspected, he was just like a regular person, our kids used to play together and he made a great barbecue sauce, he was always kind to animals too". 

Welcome to good writing. 

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, Ryusuta said:

Honestly, I feel DE wrote themselves into a corner. I honestly don't know if I'd be more disappointed with "Lotus was evil all along," or "Lotus was on your side all along and just PRETENDED to be evil." Or even "You were mislead into thinking the Lotus is evil because Ballas plotwriting and stuff."

I legit can't think of an outcome to this that would make me like, trust, or even want to SEE the Lotus ever again.

What about Mental Illness or Abuse? 'Mother' doesn't sound like she's exactly kind to Lotus or Natah. See again her whole 'They seduced you' line. And the cinematic quests and the community have hardly treated the Lotus kindly - see also a bunch of people here claiming that she's evil, and the fact that the quests seem to have systematically torn down her worldview.

Look at the quests from the perspective of 'Lotus as mother figure.' Natah has her abandon the Tenno - her children - which is unequivocally a low point. When she tries to redeem herself in the Second Dream she makes things worse. In the War Within, we rebel against her, find her secrets and get stronger, indicating that she was wrong to keep them. She barely even puts up resistance when we confront her over it. And then in Chains of Harrow, Margulis, the figure Lotus looks up to, turns out to have cast out a Tenno for poorly-defined reasons, more than likely the Child's Autism. When we consider the first thing Lotus says when we rediscover our Tenno is "Dream, not of what you are, but of what you want to be", it's likely that is one of her core beliefs. And if what she wants to be (Margulis) is flawed and broken? What does that make HER?

It's possible that Lotus was abused into thinking that 'you've failed the Tenno, you're worthless, the best thing you can do is leave them' and from there 'you were made worthless by the Tenno, they're your enemies.' At which point the Lotus coming back would be built around us realising this and trying to affirm her value, or something to that effect. To me, that'd be a much more interesting arc than a double-agent story.

[DrBorris]

It would appear that the OP had taken the bait, which is odd considering the two characters responsible for putting the "Lotus is evil shtik" into words are the two biggest "bad guys" in the game (Ballas and the Man in the Wall).

 

I mean, sure, go ahead and take their word for it. But it might not be the best idea to trust the dude that betrayed his own civilization and a magical Void force that is trying to corrupt us. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by DrBorris

[(PSN)sister-hawk]

So we’re gonna pretend that scene in Apostasy Prologue where Ballas disconnects the Lotus from that machine she was plugged into and she suddenly recognized him never happened? Or when Hunhow literally said the Tenno have done something to her and he will restore her?

The Lotus was never “evil all along.” The Lotus and Natah are two different beings. Anyone who thinks that hasn’t been paying attention to the story.

My current theory is the Tenno found some way to use transference to save Margulis from death by projecting her consciousness into Natah, thus creating a third and distict being (Lotus) with the same memories as her host body, but a different mind.

Edited January 28, 2019 by (PS4)sister-hawk

[Veridian]

Setting aside the fact that we are in the middle of the story, so we know nothing of what's going on, her plans or her motivations.

Pick an excuse for her actions:

1. The helmet was controlling her and when she lost it she reverted back to Natah.

2. She used the Tenno to destabilize the system, so when the Sentient were ready to return (let's not forget they did lose a war) they'd have it easy.

3. She is a double, or triple agent.

4. She still hasn't attempted a single hostile action against the Tenno, so her end game is to be the bridge and bring peace between the Sentient and the Tenno, so together they can take over the world!

 

I mean... compared to the comic book level of "complicated plot execution" of some modern movies, the Lotus is fine ATM.

 

[(PSN)I_I_Hope_I_I]

Here is how i see it:

The Lotus ISN'T evil, she was just "reclaimed" by the "Mother", if she was truly evil, she would not have shown us Umbra, during the Sacrifice is clear that the Lotus is somehow trying to help us, if she was truly evil, why would she give us a Warframe that is effective against her ? Its clear that both the Lotus and our Void Demon are trying to help us, or at least, guide us into getting the necessary items to fight the Sentient menace.

See it has, they have her body and mind, but they dont have her hearth.

Also, We cant forget that the Lotus is 3 different people, Natah, Margulis and the Balance between both (Lotus), Ballas used this against her, He tricked her into becoming Margulis just so that the "Mother" could "reclaim" her has Natah, But the Lotus is still somewhere inside Natah, thats 100% for sure.

But Ballas got what he deserved, Ballas wanted to die so bad, but now he cant, a truly deserved punishment.

So, i would go whit C, Ballas thought that the Lotus was just Margulis, and now that he saw the Natah side of the Lotus, he just assumed that she has been like this the whole time, wen thats not true, thats how i see it.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

5 hours ago, Dhrekr said:

No, seriously. Oh, I know that there's a bunch of players who like to scream that the Lotus is evil. But what has she done against us?

There's only one instance where she's done anything really wrong, and it was at the end of Sacrifice when she had the other sentients fire on us, forcing us to dodge.  Surely she could have flown off without doing that, but since we dodged it's sort of a "no harm, no foul" situation.  Still, one has to wonder - why allow them to shoot at us if she has out best intentions in mind.

I think we're going to find out that Ballas did something to re-awaken Lotus connection to Grandma Sentient, forcing her to go full-Natah....you never go full-Natah.  Since we know the likes of Hunhow is able to exhert control over lesser sentients, it would not surprise me in the least then if under certain conditions Grandma Sentient can subvert Lotus and make her a tool.  I believe Lotus Helmet was like a tinfoil hat - it stopped the Sentients from muddling with her mind, but after Apostasy she was left vulnerable to mental enslavement.

 

Edited January 28, 2019 by (PS4)lagrue

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

39 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

4. She still hasn't attempted a single hostile action against the Tenno

1:55 - sure maybe she doesn't fire the shot, but she's clearly controlling those sentients and that looks pretty hostile to me.  If Umbra hadn't been there, that could have easily killed the Operator.

Edited January 28, 2019 by (PS4)lagrue

[Dhrekr]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

If Umbra hadn't been there, that could have easily killed the Operator.

Naaaaah. The cutscene is obviously shot in a way that accentuates tension, but our Tenno can instantaneously go into Void mode, becoming invulnerable to this sort of damage (and any sort of damage).

This could be nothing more than a bit of show that Lotus put up for the sake of her mother - well knowing that we would 100% survive.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

There's only one instance where she's done anything really wrong, and it was at the end of Sacrifice when she had the other sentients fire on us, forcing us to dodge.  

 

18 minutes ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

1:55 - sure maybe she doesn't fire the shot, but she's clearly controlling those sentients and that looks pretty hostile to me.  If Umbra hadn't been there, that could have easily killed the Operator.

I didn't get the impression that she was in control of them. The impression I got is that they're there to "escort" her back to Mother. We were a hostile, who had just destroyed other sentients and may have tried to take her from them. 

She didn't seem to instruct the drones to attack. And after the one salvo, she left, causing them to follow. 

[(XBOX)GameNerd300]

Other than that  1 instance where she lets sentients fire at you, she hasn't tried to attack us. I think the lotus/natah/margulis are more  complicated then we like to think.

[IntheCoconut]

She is a sentient and it is likely that her sentient brain is just being "brought back into the fold" which is something along the lines of what Hunhow had said. The Sentient Mother likely has a very powerful will that she is able to exert over other "lesser" sentient to make them all part of one sentient hive-mind.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

 sure maybe she doesn't fire the shot, but she's clearly controlling those sentients and that looks pretty hostile to me.  If Umbra hadn't been there, that could have easily killed the Operator.

They're the wrong type of fragments. Those fighters don't belong to Lotus.

Each Sentient fighter is a 'fragment' of an existing Sentient, which means they inherit characteristics of the original. Compare what Lotus here looks like to what they look like. They have a different colour scheme, they're more 'bony' and are more abstract - they're Hunhow's fragments. She's got more organic looking components, as well as tubes. Also, everything's connected on her, but not on the Fragments which have parts levitating. She has some things in common (which makes sense, since she's also Hunhow's progeny) but she's also different enough to show that those aren't Lotus's Fragments. 

Since fragments are direct extensions of a Sentient's consciousness (as seen in the original War sword), it's unlikely Lotus can override the will of her Father - and it's not like Hunhow has no reason to shoot us either. So it's actually quite possible the Lotus had no part in having those sentients fire.