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Grayfox1990

DE please read: My Melee 3.0 idea adding more combo's

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Since we are spaceninjas, I have a good idea.

Remember the games like metal gear rising or the old games like tensu and shinobi? I would actually like it if you would add some combo's.

I hope I'm not to late for this. It would be so awesome to do tricks and stuff with a nikana prime or an orthos prime,...

Edited by Grayfox1990
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"Tricks and stuff''' you mean combos? because we already have those. 

They're simplifying them to make them useful and not just +10 capacity on your melee.

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overall my problems with melee weapons are that they dont have enough movesets, and that you cant equip or switch your stances during combat, you know if you maybe were to craft or combine two mastered stances to obtain some 20 plus moves and some extra capacity, i would also like to address that the weapons dont have secondary firing modes and sometimes can't be thrown and require primal chanelling which is annoying because chanelling is not explained well, and also its about the same for all weapons, it goes woooshhhhhhhh like a fart, or a fartsaber, and you probably deal more damage, its greally in the works i say that each weapon gets their own channeling powerups and benefit from leveling up to release latent effects, and unlockable traits.

prime fangs for example could get some throwing capabilities, and aetheric counter strike which causes the operator or warframe to counter attack or parry occasionally a ether dagger would be thrown missing its intended target, so we deviced a explosive funnel that causes slight knockback, so the operator can keep throwing them in a pinch, punch through would activate on channeling, and with a tigerstance could cause roar status primal fear which would also enhance the lato handgun early game melee weapons have alittle more fun features for players who dont know how to switch to the melee channel particularly the melee weapons would get some new movesets and passive traits as it ranks up. 

Edited by (PS4)santospizarro
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12 hours ago, iMessier57 said:

"Tricks and stuff''' you mean combos? because we already have those. 

They're simplifying them to make them useful and not just +10 capacity on your melee.

Combo's yes. We don't have enough of them.

There are games out there where you can kill an enemy in like 20 diffrent types of kills. Metal gear rising is 1 of them. That game was awesome. I would like to see DE doing something like this, just to make melee more attractive to players.

Edited by Grayfox1990
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9 hours ago, (PS4)santospizarro said:

overall my problems with melee weapons are that they dont have enough movesets, and that you cant equip or switch your stances during combat, you know if you maybe were to craft or combine two mastered stances to obtain some 20 plus moves and some extra capacity,...

This is excacly what I meant. I also want to have more combo's.

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Ya know, so long as combos remain as just all sorts of fancy ways to slash without any inherent differences in each combo, players will default to the most efficient combo for killing enemies. Adding more combos don't do anything, really.

For example, a proper "Hack and Slash" game would be Dynasty Warriors, but I will use Fate Extella as an example since I play that one more:

One of the characters, for example (If you know what Fate Extella is, I am using Gawain as an example, since his moveset has both strengths and weaknesses. I won't talk about the underpowered or overpowered ones), has on his first combo the ability to slash enemies into the air. This is CC and sets up for air combos, which can chain into an explosive slam.

His second is a gap closer and can leave enemies behind if getting swarmed. It also fires a couple of sword beams but you don't use it for that.

His third does an AoE burn that locks him in place, before flinging enemies away with a strong explosion that CCs them. Can be punished by ranged units but excellent against melee as it keeps stunning them before knocking them away.

His last is a cone that blasts in front of him. Very high damage and decent range.

Ofc if you button mash he does a death by thousand cuts slash spam with his sword.

You see, each combo does something different here and has different uses. This is what move variety is needed for.

Warframe can have like ... 10 possible moves per stance, but if they all fundamentally just change the way an enemy is slashed at short range, the combos are meaningless because people will just use the highest DPS one. The other combos would be meaningless because they are not optimal. This is why you see people spamming Broken Bull on Cleaving Whirlwind, Resplendent Calma on Tempo Royale or Slide attacks, even.

I get that Warframe has gap closer attacks, but there's hardly a reason to use them when you have bullet jump. If one wants more meaningful combos, they all have to do something different and do it better than mechanics you can achieve with base movement and swordplay.

I don't see DE implementing extended range shockwaves, upward force attacks and dynamic range on attacks (dynamic range is on a few weapons and stances like glaives, 11th Storm or Carving Mantis but that's it).

 

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4 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

Ya know, so long as combos remain as just all sorts of fancy ways to slash without any inherent differences in each combo, players will default to the most efficient combo for killing enemies. Adding more combos don't do anything, really.

For example, a proper "Hack and Slash" game would be Dynasty Warriors, but I will use Fate Extella as an example since I play that one more:

One of the characters, for example (If you know what Fate Extella is, I am using Gawain as an example, since his moveset has both strengths and weaknesses. I won't talk about the underpowered or overpowered ones), has on his first combo the ability to slash enemies into the air. This is CC and sets up for air combos, which can chain into an explosive slam.

His second is a gap closer and can leave enemies behind if getting swarmed. It also fires a couple of sword beams but you don't use it for that.

His third does an AoE burn that locks him in place, before flinging enemies away with a strong explosion that CCs them. Can be punished by ranged units but excellent against melee as it keeps stunning them before knocking them away.

His last is a cone that blasts in front of him. Very high damage and decent range.

Ofc if you button mash he does a death by thousand cuts slash spam with his sword.

You see, each combo does something different here and has different uses. This is what move variety is needed for.

Warframe can have like ... 10 possible moves per stance, but if they all fundamentally just change the way an enemy is slashed at short range, the combos are meaningless because people will just use the highest DPS one. The other combos would be meaningless because they are not optimal. This is why you see people spamming Broken Bull on Cleaving Whirlwind, Resplendent Calma on Tempo Royale or Slide attacks, even.

I get that Warframe has gap closer attacks, but there's hardly a reason to use them when you have bullet jump. If one wants more meaningful combos, they all have to do something different and do it better than mechanics you can achieve with base movement and swordplay.

I don't see DE implementing extended range shockwaves, upward force attacks and dynamic range on attacks (dynamic range is on a few weapons and stances like glaives, 11th Storm or Carving Mantis but that's it).

 

I see. Nice thought! Yea I'd love to have more combo's that are diffrent too. But I doubt it DE will ever do this since there would be even more ways to kill enemy's and we now already have 3. I can't see warframe taking secundary's and primary's away. Lets just hope DE reads this somehow.

Still... adding more combo's in general would still be a nice thing to have. The player would get the chance to choose how the enemy dies. The system they have now is boring to me.

Edited by Grayfox1990
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overall my problems with melee weapons are that they dont have enough movesets, and that you cant equip or switch your stances during combat, you know if you maybe were to craft or combine two mastered stances to obtain some 20 plus moves and some extra capacity, i would also like to address that the weapons dont have secondary firing modes and sometimes can't be thrown and require primal chanelling which is annoying because chanelling is not explained well, and also its about the same for all weapons, it goes woooshhhhhhhh like a fart, or a fartsaber, and you probably deal more damage, its really in the works i say that each weapon gets their own channeling powerups and benefit from leveling up to release latent effects, and unlockable traits.

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i forgot, think that was an olderpost i forgotten noddles pretymuch not the best melee food to use ;) unless DE started asked me to do some concept whips and archwingnoodles, regretfully melee weapons lack passive traits, and the ability to switch stances, also you have to see what happejns when they start allowing the gearslots to be used up in a creative way or to attach or carry cards, temporary melee upgrades to channel, such as a wad of resources that resonates with our cesti or blades, causing energy to regenerate the more you collect or atune to the veins around the forests, and machines to gain something like redmages en-magic, enfeeblements, and elemental refills for your cartriges.

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On 2019-01-28 at 10:29 PM, Grayfox1990 said:

Combo's yes. We don't have enough of them.

There are games out there where you can kill an enemy in like 20 diffrent types of kills. Metal gear rising is 1 of them. That game was awesome. I would like to see DE doing something like this, just to make melee more attractive to players.

Yes, with one weapon type. Additional combos on every single stande of every single weapon class is totally unnecessary 

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On 2019-01-28 at 2:35 PM, iMessier57 said:

"Tricks and stuff''' you mean combos? because we already have those. 

They're simplifying them to make them useful and not just +10 capacity on your melee.

I just hope we will be able to shuffle attack chain priority, change keybind choice that pause combos get removed and that MGRR Sam style charge attacks arent S#&$ty low dps versions of attacks and instead are the next attack that would be done but with buffed damage, range and hitcount.

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For warframe I think it´s reasonable to simplify the melee system because most enemies don´t survive as long anyway.

Also I´m not a big fan of combos in terms of a specific key input sequences. If they can create a system where you can chain single moves (attacks) into a none scripted and smooth combo like animation that would be cool though.

Edited by Arcira
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12 hours ago, Arcira said:

For warframe I think it´s reasonable to simplify the melee system because most enemies don´t survive as long anyway.

Also I´m not a big fan of combos in terms of a specific key input sequences. If they can create a system where you can chain single moves (attacks) into a none scripted and smooth combo like animation that would be cool though.

Maybe you might too if they did what I suggested. MGRR had many combo's with many diffrent buttons.

Thats the problem, I don't see any other way to add more moves then adding buttons to do the moves. A few buttons for 10 diffrent moves? They did that already. You can't add moves with just E Spacebar and mouse unless... Press E and choose a way to kill him and get to see the animation like ash his previous 4th ability... but that would take so much time that you got an interception mission done in the same time...

Edited by Grayfox1990

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18 hours ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

Yes, with one weapon type. Additional combos on every single stande of every single weapon class is totally unnecessary 

Yea, true, that would make too much of work and effort anyway.

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2 hours ago, Grayfox1990 said:

Maybe you might too if they did what I suggested. MGRR had many combo's with many diffrent buttons.

Thats the problem, I don't see any other way to add more moves then adding buttons to do the moves. A few buttons for 10 diffrent moves? They did that already. You can't add moves with just E Spacebar and mouse unless... Press E and choose a way to kill him and get to see the animation like ash his previous 4th ability... but that would take so much time that you got an interception mission done in the same time...

You can include movement and block into attacks like:

movement: left/right + attack, forward + attack , backwards + attack, jump + attack, block + attack, dodge + attack, attack after double jump, all of the previous + heavy attack

Some of these things work currently but you are locked into an animation for a very long time.

For example an attack after rolling doesn´t feel very smooth because

1.) you can´t attack right after you (have a short delay)

2.) you can´t chain the imput which means in order to attack as fast as possible after the delay you have to spam the attack button

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Nonetheless this can be very difficult because you have to make sure most of your animations are smooth, compatible and allow attack animations within other ones. Which is probably the reason many games prefer scripted combos

A good and bad example for a working free combo is the polearm spartan attack (jump/ double jump + attack). Good: You can perform the the swing at any given moment during your air born time which feels very good. Bad: after doing this attack you are locked into a delay until you can perform your next attack eventhough the animation is clearly finished and you can walk and jump around.

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Other things:

- similar to the air born attacks after a roll/sidespring you can´t attack for a short duration.

- A ground attack animation (from air) has different phases. One where you perform the attack towards the ground, the impact and the raise animation. I think you should be able to cancle the raise animation with certain imput methodes like roll, jump or attack chaining.

- compared to ranged weapons where you can perform almost all actions while shooting (btw I think the sidespring animation shouldn´t prevent you from shooting...matrix?) melee attacks often feel very clunky.

There are probably more possible combinations since we have a lot of tools for our warframes:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Maneuvers

Edited by Arcira

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On 2019-02-03 at 4:58 PM, Arcira said:

...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other things:

- similar to the air born attacks after a roll/sidespring you can´t attack for a short duration.

- A ground attack animation (from air) has different phases. One where you perform the attack towards the ground, the impact and the raise animation. I think you should be able to cancle the raise animation with certain imput methodes like roll, jump or attack chaining.

- compared to ranged weapons where you can perform almost all actions while shooting (btw I think the sidespring animation shouldn´t prevent you from shooting...matrix?) melee attacks often feel very clunky.

There are probably more possible combinations since we have a lot of tools for our warframes:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Maneuvers

I see. Sounds like alot of work. I still hope they do that someday. Even if it's for a few weapons, even if it means weapon per weapon, and even if it means it would take ages.

The link there prooves that they are able to do this I think, since it says 2.0: maneuvers.

Anyways, if they ever decide to do it, I would be hyped. Can't wait to do new sick combo's.

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No thanks, enemies already die in a few hits at most, there's no need for overly complicated combos, I'd rather they stick with what they showed for melee 3.0 so far, quick, practical movesets that don't hinder us just to show a pretty animation.

(You can add hundreds of combos, the players will sort out the most effective, easy to use and least restricting ones and everything else will be forgotten)

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On 2019-02-03 at 7:53 PM, Arcira said:

For warframe I think it´s reasonable to simplify the melee system because most enemies don´t survive as long anyway.

Also I´m not a big fan of combos in terms of a specific key input sequences. If they can create a system where you can chain single moves (attacks) into a none scripted and smooth combo like animation that would be cool though.

if they added some lattent effects to the combos say i was able to move faster after performing my a slide attack, or was given bonus regeneration or armor so that each moveset had a passive strenght or benefit the players as they switch weapons then stances would be good, then channeling would make more sense, you channel energy into your warframe abilities and weapons could gain special procs from the stances and forms, say that a tiger roar triggered a aoe explosion, or paralysis, blast, knockback would be some of its effects, this could be applied creatively to a riffle, or to machine guns, fang shot dealing frostbite, and some other anime,,  more interesting, > we can examine how effective weapons are when the players run out of bullets, or have low hp, and if they can pull in some extras automatically when they are sheathed, or dont have energy to channel into them, and the various attacks that are difficult to pull off. Completing one skillchain to release a lattent  speed up, killing too much or not killing enough could make the weapons volatile proc elementals and status effects, so they resonate to the users alittle more, Last thing i want to say is that there has always been equipment set in other games, maybe equiping the fang prime with a riffle would release native speed and give some low hp procs, faster team revives, and companion skill in the future of warframe stances would just have passive enhancements and materia allocations to enhance them or make them more interesting, theres no augmented or riven stances from what i know, and no passive effects.

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I'm a bit confused now. Will they work on the combo's or not because Steve said it was too much work (also, did he meant too much work to get it done before now this week? Or?...) but then when Rebecca played with the daggers it looked like they did change it a bit... I don't know

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2 hours ago, Grayfox1990 said:

I'm a bit confused now. Will they work on the combo's or not because Steve said it was too much work (also, did he meant too much work to get it done before now this week? Or?...) but then when Rebecca played with the daggers it looked like they did change it a bit... I don't know

Steve stated that Melee 3.0 is coming out in stages. They will work on the rest of the melee system, but what they are showing in the stream is what they will be releasing (hopefully) this week. The combos will be the same, but the effects will be updated, along with 2 new mechanics: quick switching between gun and full melee mode, and aimed ground slam. 

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3 hours ago, Grayfox1990 said:

I'm a bit confused now. Will they work on the combo's or not because Steve said it was too much work (also, did he meant too much work to get it done before now this week? Or?...) but then when Rebecca played with the daggers it looked like they did change it a bit... I don't know

In the stream Steve refers to it as Melee 2.999. Basically, a final melee 2.0 update to prep us up for 3.0.

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4 hours ago, OmegaZero633 said:

Steve stated that Melee 3.0 is coming out in stages. They will work on the rest of the melee system, but what they are showing in the stream is what they will be releasing (hopefully) this week. The combos will be the same, but the effects will be updated, along with 2 new mechanics: quick switching between gun and full melee mode, and aimed ground slam. 

I see. So only for this update, they won't add new combo's? Is there still a possibility that they might add combo's at some point during these stages? (Hopefully as cool as mgrr)

Already nice that they are changing the effect.

I do hope DE reads this some day... I mean yes mgrr is surely a bit complicated but still, so nice to see those moves...

Edited by Grayfox1990

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9 hours ago, Grayfox1990 said:

I see. So only for this update, they won't add new combo's? Is there still a possibility that they might add combo's at some point during these stages? (Hopefully as cool as mgrr)

I doubt they will add combos, honestly. The stated intention for Melee 3.0 was to make melee attacks more fluid and intuitive, while rebalancing the weapon classes. More specifically Steve stated in an earlier devstream that they wanted to remove the need to memorize combos in order to perform them.

In the above-mentioned devstream (I believe it was #114 if you want to check it out) they showcased some actual stance combo changes, where clicking atttack did a standing combo, while pressing forward while attacking did a combo with forward momentum. That’s currently all we have to go on as far as their plans for combos.

So we will see changes to the stance mod combos eventually, but it will likely be a simplification of what we already have. Same animations but different stats and proc effects perhaps.

Warframe is a horde shooter closer to Dynasty Warriors then something like Rising. So even though I like how Rising did things, I truly doubt they will add new combos to the game. The time-to-kill on enemies is too low at high levels to justify those changes.

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