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Anthem and what Warframe can learn from it

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40 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Science Fiction shouldn't mean about exploring space. That would invalidate great sci-fi masterpieces like Blade Runner or the entire Cyberpunk genre. I'm a big believer in J.G. Ballards statement that "science fiction shouldn't be about distant planet a thousand years into the future, it should about this planet and the next 5 minutes." To me, that's always when sci-fi is at its best. Neuromancer is interesting because it has a lot to say, not about the future, but about the 1980's when it was written. 1984 isn't about outer space, it's about the world and the political climate Orwell lived in at the time.

But of course I agree you can have great sci-fi stories set in space and on space-station. It all depends on the writer/director/artist. 

I would definitely consider it fantasy. It checks all the boxes for me. Different races, magic, etc. Yeah it borrowed a lot from steampunk and cyberpunk, but it still felt like a fantasy setting. I liked the gloominess of it. The sequels were not at all that same high level of quality, but Perdido Street Station is extremely well done for my money's worth. 

I agree that sci-fi does not need to be placed in space or use space stations. I do however not agree with Blade Runner being a masterpiece of the genre. It is one of the most slow going, close to nap-time movies I've ever seen. It doesnt matter which version it is either, they are just so damn slow. This includes the Blade Runner sequel too.

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1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

I agree that sci-fi does not need to be placed in space or use space stations. I do however not agree with Blade Runner being a masterpiece of the genre. It is one of the most slow going, close to nap-time movies I've ever seen. It doesnt matter which version it is either, they are just so damn slow. This includes the Blade Runner sequel too.

That's fine. Like I said earlier, if we all liked the same things there wouldn't be different genres of movies or music. I love Blade Runner. Hell, to be honest, I could probably quote you half the movie off the top of my head, that's how many times I've watched it. But I have no problem with people not liking it. Whatever floats your boat and all that.

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41 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Yeah I agree entirely. That was actually the point I was trying to make. That if you packaged all the props of Warframe and put it up on Epics marketplace (or Unity's for that matter), it would look very similar to all the other sci-fi props packages there. Barrels, crates, pipes, floor tiles, bulk doors, etc. 

I don't think there's too many ways to design barrels, crates, pipe, floor tiles, or bulk doors, etc tbh.

I think that if you looked at assets for these items on The Sulaco, Galactica, Nebuchadnezzar, The Enterprise (both real and fictional), or Moya I think they would look fairly similar because intended function determines the form... not to mention aspects of things like mass production (which certainly wouldn't apply to Moya). 

A crated good in in the early industrial period would, likewise, not look much different from a crated good today imo.

44 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Like I said for me that's mostly for the design of the frames and some of the weapons.

Understood. I completely respect your opinion...I just don't share it.

I think all of the tilesets designs are unique and distinct even if I don't think a wall or floor panel necessarily is as there's really only so many ways anyone can design such a thing.

...it's how it all gets put together that makes the difference imo.

I can pick out a corridor on any of the ships I named from a tileset in this or any other game from each other which is enough to inform me that they are designed uniquely enough to be distinct.

That said, I certainly couldn't differentiate between Starfleet ship corridors unless it's the Defiant (which, funnily enough, wasn't mass produced).

 

 

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1 minute ago, Padre_Akais said:

I don't think there's too many ways to design barrels, crates, pipe, floor tiles, or bulk doors, etc tbh.

Yeah but my point is, you don't need to have them in your game. Just as you don't need to have elves and dwarves in a fantasy world. If you take a course in game props design, I can pretty much promise you that one of the first lessons they'll teach you is "how to make a sci-fi crate". Which should be a good indication that you should probably just avoid them all together.

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1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I agree that sci-fi does not need to be placed in space or use space stations. I do however not agree with Blade Runner being a masterpiece of the genre. It is one of the most slow going, close to nap-time movies I've ever seen. It doesnt matter which version it is either, they are just so damn slow. This includes the Blade Runner sequel too.

Blasphemy

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46 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Yeah but my point is, you don't need to have them in your game. Just as you don't need to have elves and dwarves in a fantasy world. If you take a course in game props design, I can pretty much promise you that one of the first lessons they'll teach you is "how to make a sci-fi crate". Which should be a good indication that you should probably just avoid them all together.

Practical items isnt really on the same optional level as specific races, especially when we are in a future world of our own pretty much. Crates and barrels are needed to simply hold stuff, same as lockers and whatever else of practical use we can think of.

Saying it isnt needed is like saying Star Wars is lazy in design because they still drink milk from plastic containers and bars are set up as actual real life bars. In a proper sci-fi setting you wouldnt have a bardesk or a space-jazz band playing.

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45 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Yeah but my point is, you don't need to have them in your game. ...

You don`t need tables and chairs in your rooms either, yet most people have them because it`s practical and makes sense.
I get the point you are trying to make, but it`s a bit theoretical, especially for game design.

Take Ceres for instance, it`s basicly a mining facility, so of course it makes sense to have pipes, steam, rusty steel and crates.

Within games, crates are also the things our loot pops out from. 😉 And they can be designed with pleasantly few polygons, making them good objects to fill up scenes.
Floor tiles are a nice way to break up otherwise boring flat surfaces, so you see them on many scifi designs.

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3 minutes ago, D1sTrust said:

Take Ceres for instance, it`s basicly a mining facility, so of course it makes sense to have pipes, steam, rusty steel and crates.

Of course it makes sense. That's why we've seen it a thousand times before, because so much sci-fi takes place onboard spaceships, on space station and in mining facilities. If you want to make a mining facility in your sci-fi game, then sure decorate it with pipes and crates, just don't be surprised when someone calls you unoriginal because your mining facility looks like all the other mining facilities.

It's not the crates and pipes themselves that's the issue. It's the mining facility, the space station, the space ship. It's these tropes that makes your sci-fi setting seem generic and unoriginal. Let's have a dessert planet. Let's have an ice planet, no one ever saw that before. And so on and on. Like I said, if you are into that kind of sci-fi I can absolutely see why you would love Warframe. I'm just done with it, and therefor can not enjoy Warframe's setting, design and lore. I still love the gameplay, though.

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6 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Of course it makes sense. That's why we've seen it a thousand times before, because so much sci-fi takes place onboard spaceships, on space station and in mining facilities. If you want to make a mining facility in your sci-fi game, then sure decorate it with pipes and crates, just don't be surprised when someone calls you unoriginal because your mining facility looks like all the other mining facilities.

It's not the crates and pipes themselves that's the issue. It's the mining facility, the space station, the space ship. It's these tropes that makes your sci-fi setting seem generic and unoriginal. Let's have a dessert planet. Let's have an ice planet, no one ever saw that before. And so on and on. Like I said, if you are into that kind of sci-fi I can absolutely see why you would love Warframe. I'm just done with it, and therefor can not enjoy Warframe's setting, design and lore. I still love the gameplay, though.

Ouch. . . ""horrifically jaded"". I don't know how I'd stick to a genre if I ever got to that point of ennui. Perhaps it's just the fact I get engrossed into the setting as the character, like an actor playing out a role, that has kept me from reaching that point of blaise.

 

That said, it sounds like you'd absolutely love designing alien (terrestrial-magical or beyond a planet) races with nonhumanoid characteristics. Those tend to be the places where I've seen folks bend and twist things so that they can be "more then a trope".

Edited by Unus

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hace 1 hora, SneakyErvin dijo:

I agree that sci-fi does not need to be placed in space or use space stations. I do however not agree with Blade Runner being a masterpiece of the genre. It is one of the most slow going, close to nap-time movies I've ever seen. It doesnt matter which version it is either, they are just so damn slow. This includes the Blade Runner sequel too.

IKR i dont understand why people keep mentioning blade runner like if it was the holy bible of cyberpunk or something...

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1 minute ago, Unus said:

Ouch. . . horrifically jaded. I don't know how I'd stick to a genre if I ever got to that point of ennui. Perhaps it's just the fact I get engrossed into the setting as the character, like an actor playing out a role, that has kept me from reaching that point of blaise.

Lol, I made myself sound more cynical than I am to get my point across. Like I said to someone else, you can still have good storytelling and interesting stories in generic settings, as long as the writer and/or art-director is good enough to set the work apart from the masses. That happens all the time.

3 minutes ago, Unus said:

That said, it sounds like you'd absolutely love designing alien (terrestrial-magical or beyond a planet) races with nonhumanoid characteristics. Those tend to be the places where I've seen folks bend and twist things so that they can be "more then a trope.

I'd love to make original fantasy and sci-fi settings as well. I once set an entire D&D campaign inside a country-seized monster, and the entire campaign was the players trying to figure out what the creature was and how to get out of it. There were no treasure chests or barrels of any kind. It was memorable and something my friends will still mention to this day. Though to be fair, many other times I tried to be non-generic and just failed to the point where the players more or less told me "stop being weird or we won't let you be a DM ever again".

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Just now, Toppien said:

IKR i dont understand why people keep mentioning blade runner like if it was the holy bible of cyberpunk or something...

I far prefer to see Johnny Mnemonic as a milestone when it comes to Cyberpunk. It just covers it all with cyberspace, massive corporations, overly modified individuals etc.

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Just now, SneakyErvin said:

I far prefer to see Johnny Mnemonic as a milestone when it comes to Cyberpunk. It just covers it all with cyberspace, massive corporations, overly modified individuals etc.

I mean Johnny Mnemonic the movie is based off of William Gibson's short story from his Burning Chrome collection. That's the collection where the word Cyberspace was used for the first time ever. Johnny Mnemonic was published a year before Blade Runner was released, so it wouldn't be unfair to call it (along with other stories in Burning Chrome) the first real examples of cyberpunk. Blade Runner however was the first movie.

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19 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Yeah but my point is, you don't need to have them in your game. Just as you don't need to have elves and dwarves in a fantasy world. If you take a course in game props design, I can pretty much promise you that one of the first lessons they'll teach you is "how to make a sci-fi crate". Which should be a good indication that you should probably just avoid them all together.

I think any interior design class you take is going to make one of the first things they teach being accessorizing a room to create atmosphere.

6 minutes ago, rune_me said:

If you want to make a mining facility in your sci-fi game, then sure decorate it with pipes and crates, just don't be surprised when someone calls you unoriginal because your mining facility looks like all the other mining facilities.

I'd rather have those as opposed to a selection of burro shaped piñatas and balloons

8 minutes ago, rune_me said:

It's not the crates and pipes themselves that's the issue. It's the mining facility, the space station, the space ship. It's these tropes that makes your sci-fi setting seem generic and unoriginal. Let's have a dessert planet. Let's have an ice planet, no one ever saw that before. And so on and on. Like I said, if you are into that kind of sci-fi I can absolutely see why you would love Warframe. I'm just done with it, and therefor can not enjoy Warframe's setting, design and lore. I still love the gameplay, though.

Dune had both a Desert and a Water planet and had all of these things.

Likewise, the two good versions of  The Thing (Russel's and Arness') was an all Ice locale and featured the same things.

Generic doesn't necessarily mean unoriginal...But, to your credit,  it definitely can if it's lazy.

Please Understand that I am not bashing your stance...I do take your point and agree that artists need to branch out from established norms as well.

That's why I'll always have the strongest love for movies like Dog Soldiers, Howl, From the Dark, The Thing, or Wer. Yeah, there's no question what it's about from the title...But how each chose to go about telling the story was what I found engaging. 

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2 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Dune had both a Desert and a Water planet and had all of these things.

I was being sarcastic, since dessert and ice planets are extremely common tropes in space operas. To Dunes credit, it was the original so they were in fact not tropes when the book was published. They became tropes because of Dune, and Star Wars, and so on.

4 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Please Understand that I am not bashing your stance...I do take your point and agree that artists need to branch out from established norms as well.

It's all good. I like people disagreeing with me, as long as they are not just telling me to f-off for not sharing their opinions. Intelligent disagreement is important.

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1 hour ago, rune_me said:

It's not the crates and pipes themselves that's the issue. It's the mining facility, the space station, the space ship. It's these tropes that makes your sci-fi setting seem generic and unoriginal. Let's have a dessert planet. Let's have an ice planet, no one ever saw that before.

Like I said, in theory I get your point, you want something spectacularly new.
But there is a difference between dreaming of great innovative designs and actually delivering them as movie or game.
I feel it`s a bit like with music, something great only comes along every ten or twenty years, and even that is usually an iteration of something that came before.
E.g. you mentioned Bioshock as a positive example a couple of posts earlier, but the environment there isn`t very original either since it`s inspired by Jules Verne.

As for habitable planet surfaces, I don`t think I have ever seen a surprising design. There are only so many surfaces you can have a character walk on, so of course it`s always something somewhat familiar.

Imo it`s not so much about coming up with something entirely original, since that is nigh impossible, but more about finding your own style within the options you have.
Warframe does that very well for the most part imo.

One can think of many crazy things (fighting inside a giant monster was done on Gears of War btw.), but bringing it to life is another story.
 

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17 minutes ago, D1sTrust said:

Like I said, in theory I get your point, you want something spectacularly new.
But there is a difference between dreaming of great innovative designs and actually delivering them as movie or game.
I feel it`s a bit like with music, something great only comes along every ten or twenty years, and even that is usually an iteration of something that came before.
E.g. you mentioned Bioshock as a positive example a couple of posts earlier, but the environment there isn`t very original either since it`s inspired by Jules Verne.

As for habitable planet surfaces, I don`t think I have ever seen a surprising design. There are only so many surfaces you can have a character walk on, so of course it`s always something somewhat familiar.

Imo it`s not so much about coming up with something entirely original, since that is nigh impossible, but more about finding your own style within the options you have.
Warframe does that very well for the most part imo.

Yeah I do agree with everything you said. Except for Warframe, which just doesn't do it for me. But that's a matter of taste. As is obvious from the above discussion of Blade Runner, what is one man's masterpiece is another's dull snoozefest.

17 minutes ago, D1sTrust said:

(fighting inside a giant monster was done on Gears of War btw.)

Also in Path of Exile and Tides of Numenera. But to my credit, my D&D years were 2 decades ago, so I will still claim points for originality. Not really, I'm pretty sure Pinocchio was actually a serious inspiration for my own "original" idea.

Edited by rune_me

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Anthem looks really cool, but Warframe's enemies are too squishy and too dumb for Anthem-style gameplay to work well in the game's current state.

If you wanted to add Anthem-style combos, I think what you'd have to do would be to create a class of miniboss enemies that have huge resistance to normal damage (not just damage reduction, but some kind of per-hit cap or even a flat DPS limit, e.g. the miniboss can lose no more than 1% of its health per second). You'd be able to break this resistance, and maybe do a high-damage AOE, by setting up and detonating combos. Maybe each miniboss enemy has multiple health segments, each with its own damage limit. You break the first one, burn down its health until you get to the second one; break that one, burn it down, and so on until all segments are depleted.

I think the way I'd do setup/detonation is, getting enough procs and/or doing enough damage of the appropriate type would set up "hot spots" on the miniboss's body, like the scan nodes of a synthesis target or a (much smaller) version of the crit zones created by Banshee. To detonate a hot spot, you'd have to deal damage of the corresponding type (e.g. cold damage to set up a hot spot on ferrite armor, heat damage to detonate the hot spot). AOE damage of any type would probably count for -75% or something, to reward accuracy. Melee would have a +75% bonus to reward intestinal fortitude.

In terms of scale, I think setting up and detonating a hot spot would require roughly the damage input required to kill a heavy gunner of the same level, each (one HG's worth of damage to set up, one HG's worth of damage to detonate). So generally speaking it would require focused effort, not just something that happens while you're killing everything else.

Honestly, I think that kind of strategic fight is what Warframe is really missing. Mindless horde shooting is a nice base for the game's combat, but I feel like much more could be built on top of it. It should be horde shooting and. You shoot hordes to clear room to do what you really came here to do.

Edited by motorfirebox
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11 hours ago, rune_me said:

Lol, I made myself sound more cynical than I am to get my point across. Like I said to someone else, you can still have good storytelling and interesting stories in generic settings, as long as the writer and/or art-director is good enough to set the work apart from the masses. That happens all the time.

I'd love to make original fantasy and sci-fi settings as well. I once set an entire D&D campaign inside a country-seized monster, and the entire campaign was the players trying to figure out what the creature was and how to get out of it. There were no treasure chests or barrels of any kind. It was memorable and something my friends will still mention to this day. Though to be fair, many other times I tried to be non-generic and just failed to the point where the players more or less told me "stop being weird or we won't let you be a DM ever again".

Okay, I was gonna say, you didn't SEEM like some of the nasty "full burn-outs" I've met in other places who want to smack people over the head with the bitterness they lug around wherever they tread.

 

Heh, care to share the secret of the how and why when it comes to the monster in question? In addition, how you managed loot and the like?

 

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10 hours ago, rune_me said:

Also in Path of Exile and Tides of Numenera. But to my credit, my D&D years were 2 decades ago, so I will still claim points for originality. Not really, I'm pretty sure Pinocchio was actually a serious inspiration for my own "original" idea.

Hehe, Jonah and the Whale also came to my mind 😉
Anyway, I feel the frustration about what I would call "limits of imagination" too. I make a living from 3d design and did some planet surfaces of my own. I went in somewhat ambitious, but in the end it was ...desert, water, rocks lol. Hopefully pretty, but hardly innovative.
Btw, one thing I noticed there is that you also have to manage viewer expectations, as in stay within the limits of what seems to make sense to people.
Not that I`d have read it, but maybe Mortal Engines would be a good example of something you can imagine and write down, but once visualized it comes across rather silly?

10 hours ago, rune_me said:

Yeah I do agree with everything you said. Except for Warframe, which just doesn't do it for me. But that's a matter of taste. As is obvious from the above discussion of Blade Runner, what is one man's masterpiece is another's dull snoozefest.

Agreed, matter of taste, and I happen to be in the Blade Runner snoozefest minority. 😉
But between Anthem and Warframe, I have a hard time understanding how "mechsuit with jetpack" could be seen as more creative than "space ninja wizard bordering on making no sense physiologicly". No matter, every Blade Runner fan is certainly as puzzled about non-fans as well, I guess that`s the nature of different tastes. 😉

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On 2019-02-10 at 4:35 AM, SneakyErvin said:

40k, Starcraft, Warzone/Mutant Chronicles, the Alien universe, Terminator, Star Trek and Cyberpunk are just a few.

Everyone forgets Shadowrun.. And it was the best of the crop.

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On 2019-02-12 at 9:38 PM, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

That would be a waste of money for DE, money that could be better spent supporting game development.

I disagree. Advertising in Time Square was not cheap I assure you. But just imagine if DE hired Blomkamp for a Warframe short hyping the new war. 

IMO it would be better money spent. Just watch this. I mean this is awesome. 

Edited by (XB1)RDeschain82

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