Stalker mode ideas

[Arzete]

What if DE has some secret machine learning team working on how to make the Stalker more challenging by improving its algorithm (making it actually be able to think, use tactics).

 

Y'know how we have difficulty modes right? Think of it like this:

Easy

Medium

Hard

Human-like AI

 

If you hate apple pie simply because it's called an apple pie but love banana pies, I'm pretty sure you would eat an apple pie that looks like, and is called a banana pie.

Just some food for thought.

 

Some context for those that are confused:

Spoiler

There is this new game mode "Stalker Mode" that DE has been working on that allows players to play as the Stalker against other players in missions. This has gotten a LOT of controversy because Warframe is primarily a PVE game and introducing "Stalker Mode" would be bringing more PVP elements into a PVE game.

Some players love the idea and think it would bring an actual level of challenge to the stalker. Others hate it because they don't like PVP.

The pie analogy stems from another thread talking about the "Stalker Mode", where the "Stalker Mode" is the PVP pie. 

^{It's my personal opinion and you can definitely feel free to disagree but I think that the line between PVP and PVE gets blurred more and more everyday. As machine learning algorithms improve, games will have AI that act and behave more intelligently, in other words, more human-like.}

^{I just find it incomprehensible to judge something by its label. Say that you like PVE and absolutely loathe PVP. Now what if in your favorite PVE game, the developers suddenly push an update to make the npc's all have human-like behavior? Would that mean you now hate PVE?}

 

 

[Firetempest]

Beyond the pvp is pvp. Because.... It's pvp.

It's not just about stalker being difficult or not. It's about all the ways a human make a stalker as annoying as possible that DE wouldn't program it to do.  Like being harrasing, without the intent to win.

Just like many Warframe abilities we're not intended to be incredibly funny trolling tools. Like vauban bounce pads, Nova portal, Loki switch, everything limbo. Tonkor. And so on.

That's what people want to avoid.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Firetempest

[Gamma745]

15 minutes ago, Arzete said:

What if DE has some secret machine learning team working on how to make the Stalker more challenging by improving its algorithm (making it actually be able to think, use tactics).

My question would be, if DE could do this, why should this be limited to just Stalker? Why not apply this to every boss, field boss, or even normal grunts?

[Jiminez_Burial]

21 minutes ago, Arzete said:

If you hate apple pie simply because it's called an apple pie but love banana pies, I'm pretty sure you would eat an apple pie that looks like, and is called a banana pie.

Yes in this scenario I would take a bite of the 'supposed to be' banana pie, but I would then spit it out in disgust because I'm not an idiot.  Your thread doesn't even try to answer all the valid concerns people have with the system so what is even the point of your post?  It doesn't matter what something if labeled, it matters how it works.  I feel like you would be very welcome at EA/Activision.

[DatDarkOne]

37 minutes ago, Arzete said:

If you hate apple pie simply because it's called an apple pie but love banana pies, I'm pretty sure you would eat an apple pie that looks like, and is called a banana pie.

This is just the STUPIDEST thing I've seen all week.  I'm truly sorry if that comes off as mean, but that still doesn't change how crazy that statement is.  

[Arzete]

4 minutes ago, Starfreak911 said:

Yes in this scenario I would take a bite of the 'supposed to be' banana pie, but I would then spit it out in disgust because I'm not an idiot.  Your thread doesn't even try to answer all the valid concerns people have with the system so what is even the point of your post?  It doesn't matter what something if labeled, it matters how it works.  I feel like you would be very welcome at EA/Activision.

You say it matters how it works. Okay. Here's my argument. 

 

Now let's say that the 'supposed to be' banana pie also tastes like a banana pie. You probably won't spit that out, right?

 

I guess now the core of my argument is, at what point or level of intelligence do you consider PVE to be PVP? Because as far as I am concerned, machines are able to replicate human behavior at simple games. If DE suddenly implemented an ai algorithm that was suddenly much smarter and therefore more human-like, would you consider that to be PVE?

 

Here's some tidbits to read on machines beating humans at games like Dota 2:

https://www.engadget.com/2017/08/12/ai-beats-top-dota-2-players/

 

In another source, one I read a while ago, one of the Dota 2 human players playing against the AI said that the AI "felt almost human" or something along those lines. I don't have the link to the source but if someone else finds it, I'd appreciate if they can link it to contribute to the conversation 🙂

 

 

[Arzete]

27 minutes ago, Firetempest said:

Beyond the pvp is pvp. Because.... It's pvp.

It's not just about stalker being difficult or not. It's about all the ways a human make a stalker as annoying as possible that DE wouldn't program it to do.  Like being harrasing, without the intent to win.

Just like many Warframe abilities we're not intended to be incredibly funny trolling tools. Like vauban bounce pads, Nova portal, Loki switch, everything limbo. Tonkor. And so on.

That's what people want to avoid.

Thanks for the input! I agree that this is a valid point and it would break the immersion in the game. This is honestly up to how DE implements the game mode though, and I do believe, with enough limitations on what the player can and can not do as the Stalker, that the not-intended things can be avoided or at least mitigated to a large extent.

[DatDarkOne]

7 minutes ago, Arzete said:

This is honestly up to how DE implements the game mode though, and I do believe, with enough limitations on what the player can and can not do as the Stalker, that the not-intended things can be avoided or at least mitigated to a large extent.

I think you might need to go back and READ that topic you linked in the opening post. As well as the following one.

It has a discussion about the problems involved with that very thing.  

[TARINunit9]

54 minutes ago, Arzete said:

If you hate apple pie simply because it's called an apple pie but love banana pies, I'm pretty sure you would eat an apple pie that looks like, and is called a banana pie.

Ignoring for a moment that A) that metaphor doesn't work, and B) this "machine learning" theory is ridiculous and outlandish with no evidence, let me let you in on some important information:

The Warframe playerbase is notoriously anti-PvP. A lot of people play Warframe to get away from PvP games. They want DE to just STOP considering anything PvP at all

[ExcaliburUmbra]

1 hour ago, Arzete said:

If you hate apple pie simply because it's called an apple pie but love banana pies, I'm pretty sure you would eat an apple pie that looks like, and is called a banana pie.

Just some food for thought.

If you hate eating poop simply because its called poop but love chocolate, I’m pretty sure you would eat poop that looks like, and is called a lump of chocolate.

Just some crap for thought.

...

I’m actually for a PvP Stalker mode to be implemented tbh, but this is a horrible example that does nothing to actually address the misgivings people have about facing against other players. 

[Leland_Gaunt]

What if I don't like pie in general?

[MagPrime]

I just...we already had this talk...

[Atsia]

 Why the hell are we still using terrible pie metaphors?

[Gamma745]

5 minutes ago, Atsia said:

 Why the hell are we still using terrible pie metaphors?

What, you don't like pie? Would pizza be better?

[Yamazuki]

Challenging AI would just be the same as difficult end-game content. "PvP" has nothing to do with "difficulty", as to good players pvp essentially has the same difficulty as a game's tutorial against most of the game's player base. People don't like pvp for Warframe or any other MMORPG simply because these games aren't designed for pvp, causing pvp to be a terrible experience. Don't forget the terrible human interaction that come with pvp that most want nothing to do with, that the bigger studios poured in a ton of resources developing semi-automated systems to moderate the player base, something I doubt can be done for Warframe in a reasonable time.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Yamazuki

[beol]

Pie aside ..

What I would not like, is an AI that trash talks me afterwards, or tries to sabotage the mission objective, or runs and hides just to stall ..

I'm not even entirely sure I want to fight an AI that bullet jumps constantly. I mean, it would be more challenging, but there's a reason I don't play Gunz too .. 

 

Also,

Pumpkin is best. 

 

[peterc3]

PvP is PvP is PvP. Let's take Destiny, for another game's example. You know that feeling when you want to just kick back and shoot things? You know what is the opposite feeling? Jumping into the Crucible and having your ish pushed in for 15 minutes, just because you were unlucky in who you got matched with. Also fun is picking up CoD after a bit and the only people playing are apparently human aimbots.

I don't like any form of PvP. I will begrudgingly do it if there's some incentive, but I won't enjoy it and can't really contribute to anyone else's fun in the match.

Stalker Mode, unless explicitly opt-in, is a game killer for me.

[Obviousclone]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Ignoring for a moment that A) that metaphor doesn't work, and B) this "machine learning" theory is ridiculous and outlandish with no evidence, let me let you in on some important information:

The Warframe playerbase is notoriously anti-PvP. A lot of people play Warframe to get away from PvP games. They want DE to just STOP considering anything PvP at all

actually machine learning isn't ridiculous or outlandish

 

last year (or it might have been the year before that) DE_Steve held a few streams where he went through the new player experience.

One of the more interesting things he showcased was that rescue targets use a special AI that reads how other players parkour through maps, and mimics it to navigate itself.

and then hilariously the corpus rescue target following him slid down the venus extract hill the same way he did (sliding for an excessive 10+ seconds) before bullet jumping into double jumping onto the extract platform.

Sadly Steve never kept vods on his twitch channel but, it was something worth remembering. It's also something you might have seen yourself if you use a kavat/kubrow and ever parkour around the place.

 

Here's a video from 4 years ago of them actually talking about using learning ai on their spectres to wallrun in warframe (warframe talk starts at 20:34 if you are on mobile/the vid doesn't start at the right time)

 

At 23:30 they show exactly how it works. It makes sense too. Why program the ai to go through each map tile when they are going to keep adding more tilesets, which would require even more work/time when they could instead have us, the players do it for us? All they would have to work on is how the map looks, and it's collision mesh. No time spent writing and testing specific code for ai pathing, or increasing the harddrive space the game takes up for the player.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Obviousclone

[BornWithTeeth]

Ok, dude, first off, I personally beat the pie analogy to death in the last thread, and then I literally, actually baked pie. This weekend I’m gonna learn how to make biscotti and then none of you are safe.

 

 

Second...you know, it occurs to me that for all that people in favour of the mode just cannot seem to stop yelling about challenge and difficulty, that misses the point. For instance, I happen to know for a fact that one guy who is in favour of the mode and who sneers at the idea of not liking PvP would also struggle to solo an Eidolon capture without sticking slavishly to the approved meta. Meanwhile, I’ve soloed Eidolon captures with Ash and Ember. So, don’t come talking to me about challenge in the game. Get on my level, hmmmm?

What I’m actually getting at here is that a lot of the sentiment against PvP is not about challenge or difficulty. It is rooted in a distaste for the toxic attitudes which come with it, the trash talking, the griefing and harassment. And, lo and behold, when DE previewed the mode it showed us an anonymous Stalker invasion who could sabotage mission objectives. Good call!

That impression was then reinforced by the behaviour on the forums of players in favour of Stalker mode, who have not exactly been the best ambassadors for it. In any thread on the topic, in fact in every thread on the topic, you can and will find the following exchange:

Person who doesn’t like PvP: Eh, make it optional and I don’t care. I just don’t wanna do a PvP mode.

Person in favour of Stalker mode replies: Pathetic carebears don’t know what they want, the mode should definitely be mandatory for all public games.

 

Perhaps if folks in favour of Stalker mode could discuss it for more than three pages without feeling the need to sling insults, things would be different.

 

 

tl;dr, It is literally not about difficulty, it is about not wanting to put up with toxicity from hostile players.

Edited January 30, 2019 by BornWithTeeth

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, Obviousclone said:

actually machine learning isn't ridiculous or outlandish

 

last year (or it might have been the year before that) DE_Steve held a few streams where he went through the new player experience.

One of the more interesting things he showcased was that rescue targets use a special AI that reads how other players parkour through maps, and mimics it to navigate itself.

and then hilariously the corpus rescue target following him slid down the venus extract hill the same way he did (sliding for an excessive 10+ seconds) before bullet jumping into double jumping onto the extract platform.

At 23:30 they show exactly how it works. It makes sense too. Why program the ai to go through each map tile when they are going to keep adding more tilesets, which would require even more work/time when they could instead have us, the players do it for us? All they would have to work on is how the map looks, and it's collision mesh. No time spent writing and testing specific code for ai pathing, or increasing the harddrive space the game takes up for the player.

Training the AI to navigate new tilesets is one thing (nevermind that we have to actually PLAY them first for them to learn from us, meaning the AI has to already have a nodemap set up before the new tilesets even get patch in, thus it literally does not save DE any work).

Teaching Stalker to fight us is quite another. It sounds like that Smash Bros amiibo mode. Which I should mention is really mediocre at actually learning from players who actually know their frame data; instead most of its level-ups give it free damage resistance and other such cheating bonuses the human players don't get

[--DSP--Jetstream]

Host still have advantage, just set your router and give the stalker a 1000 ping experience 🙂

[Makunogo]

i love how everyone assumes that they would actually make a player user stalker that can completly sabotage a mission. do u honestly think DE would do that?

lets also remember that when the person who triggers stalker dies.. stalker goes bye bye. if t really is such a bother for people. biring a weapon that can kill yourself. 

stalker spawns.. welp.. tiem to die.. oh stalker is gone. avoid the trolling completly. which i can totally see people doing IF this was something made available to players . honestly dont think it will be though as too many people are crying foul. which has notably caused DE to back out of several things i assume.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Makunogo

[BornWithTeeth]

15 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

i love how everyone assumes that they would actually make a player user stalker that can completly sabotage a mission. do u honestly think DE would do that?

lets also remember that when the person who triggers stalker dies.. stalker goes bye bye. if t really is such a bother for people. biring a weapon that can kill yourself. 

stalker spawns.. welp.. tiem to die.. oh stalker is gone. avoid the trolling completly. which i can totally see people doing IF this was something made available to players . honestly dont think it will be though as too many people are crying foul. which has notably caused DE to back out of several things i assume.

DE thought Lunaro would be a hit, and DE thought that the reason Slash Status procs are good is because they stack.

 

 

DE are generally lovely people but they can and do goof pretty badly from time to time.

 

EDIT: Also, “Don’t wanna get harassed? Just suicide in the mission, problem solved!” is...not a good response.

Edited January 30, 2019 by BornWithTeeth

[NocheLuz]

I like how the thread want support but got burn instead...

For me, I don't really a PvP person. I even avoid playing games that depend on PvP or PvP is mandatory to complete mission and/or lock something behide PvP. I don't care if it's not mandatory or having anything to do with me. Like conclave, I don't care. But don't force PvP on to me.

If the mode is really good, the player will play it anyway. Problem solve!! If it's bad, don't just dump everything on 'because it's optional'. Anyways, just don't put something (mod/BP) behide those Stalker mode and I'm very happy with it.

[Kontrollo]

2 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

That impression was then reinforced by the behaviour on the forums of players in favour of Stalker mode, who have not exactly been the best ambassadors for it. In any thread on the topic, in fact in every thread on the topic, you can and will find the following exchange: 

Person who doesn’t like PvP: Eh, make it optional and I don’t care. I just don’t wanna do a PvP mode.

Person in favour of Stalker mode replies: Pathetic carebears don’t know what they want, the mode should definitely be mandatory for all public games.

And here we are again. In a topic about the question when an AI starts blurring the lines between what is PvE and what is PvP a guy who very aggressively and broadly paints a picture about how toxic the people are who like to play PvP.

You know, the worst I've seen so far was that other guy who said he'd intentionally do all to troll people if there won't be an opt-out feature. I.e. an avid advocate of PvE-only gameplay who said he'd intentionally sabotage it just to prove his point.

 

And you know what? I haven't even played Conclave in years (and this mode won't be that, anyway), but we've had to deal with attitudes like yours since the introduction of the new Conclave. It's the one true constant, and somehow it never seems to get old around here.

 

Also, I'm not writing this to defend anyone who wants to use that mode as an outlet to measure their e-peen, or to harass people. No one needs those guys.

 

P.S.:

36 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

DE thought Lunaro would be a hit, and DE thought that the reason Slash Status procs are good is because they stack. 

IIRC it was a suggestion from people who didn't like Conclave that we should have some kind of sports game instead. For some reason Lunaro now gets lumped in with Conclave, is it because they share the same syndicate?