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[DE]Rebecca

Chat Moderation Changes and Additions Report!

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2 minutes ago, Nomicakes said:

I'm sorry, are we going to overlook that apparently comparing updates to Fortnite is now an offence?

When such comparisons are repeatedly posted over and over and over and over and everyone and their grandmother is posting it in chat, then the violation isn't "because it's comparing it to Fortnite", it's "because it's spam."

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Just now, Letter13 said:

When such comparisons are repeatedly posted over and over and over and over and everyone and their grandmother is posting it in chat, then the violation isn't "because it's comparing it to Fortnite", it's "because it's spam."

Can we get a concrete number of times people are allowed to collectively say similar things before it's arbitrarily labelled as spam?

How about a warning before people start getting banned, too?

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6 minutes ago, (XB1)pepvi said:

As someone often called a "trap", it's very harmful. There's people okay with being called that but the people not okay with it FAR outweigh those who are okay with it. Also "ladyboy" is the same as "boygirl" (and other variations of the two), and is often used as a derogatory term towards trans folks

From what I have looked into personally, its more in the minority of people who consider it hateful. Now if you only follow along with the same sphere of individuals, then that can make things appear greater than they are. Of course any community with that exact mindset would think similarly, and thus make it seem greater.

6 minutes ago, notbydesign said:

 

Because there's a thing called perspective. Saying something is acceptable in one country doesn't suddenly remove it's negative connotations in another. Surrounding yourself with like minded people will give you the impression that something can be normal. Long story short, not everyone's a weeb who shares your perspective.

I'm not sure what you mean, because whatever way you think you're using it, you're suggesting that it's acceptable when it can cause significant problems for many people. People are upset by the word because casually implying that someone may be intentionally deceptive, based on their gender, etc, is not a positive way to interact with someone.

There are groups out there that take pride in "appearing feminine", it may be something of an "old guard vs new" however, as I've come across people complaining that other people were using it to self-describe as that in a positive way.

 

It's a word that heavily relies on context, and just like a lot of words can of course be used negatively.

It is that reliance on context is what makes me heavily opposed to any blanket-bans on it, it instead needs to be something treated with more nuance and rely more on reports and the chat moderators themselves.

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1 minute ago, Sean said:

From what I have looked into personally, its more in the minority of people who consider it hateful. Now if you only follow along with the same sphere of individuals, then that can make things appear greater than they are. Of course any community with that exact mindset would think the similarly, and thus make it seem greater.

There are groups out there that take pride in "appearing feminine", it may be something of an "old guard vs new" however, as I've come across people complaining that other people were using it to self-describe as that in a positive way.

 

It's a word that heavily relies on context, and just like a lot of words can of course be used negatively.

It is that reliance on context is what makes me heavily opposed to any blanket-bans on it, it instead needs to be something treated with more nuance and rely more on reports and the chat moderators themselves.

You're not wrong and you seem well versed enough in whatever context you have, and you don't seem like a S#&$lord, so there may be some merit to that. 

There absolutely IS merit to the fact that context is important. I'm sure it happens where people are getting banned for referring to trapping someone with Vauban or something, (brain fart, couldn't come up with anything better than Vauban.) and getting banned. That shouldn't be happening and I agree. But I do have 1st hand experience when I said I would trap with Equinox's sleep and I was NOT banned. 

The Nezha meme really should just fizzle out though. It's super childish and not very becoming. I have friends I'd like to join the game one day and for this to not be a thing.

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)pepvi said:

As someone often called a "trap", it's very harmful. There's people okay with being called that but the people not okay with it FAR outweigh those who are okay with it. Also "ladyboy" is the same as "boygirl" (and other variations of the two), and is often used as a derogatory term towards trans folks

How was it harmful? What % of people are we talking about, how do you know objectively it far outweighs those that are okay with it? How is ladyboy and boygirl derogatory? As i said i feel if you're looking to be offended then you will be offended.

1 minute ago, notbydesign said:

 

Because there's a thing called perspective. Saying something is acceptable in one country doesn't suddenly remove it's negative connotations in another. Surrounding yourself with like minded people will give you the impression that something can be normal. Long story short, not everyone's a weeb who shares your perspective.

I'm not sure what you mean, because whatever way you think you're using it, you're suggesting that it's acceptable when it can cause significant problems for many people. People are upset by the word because casually implying that someone may be intentionally deceptive, based on their gender, etc, is not a positive way to interact with someone.

Saying something is negative out of nowhere doesn't remove the word's original and legitimate meaning, surrounding yourself with like-minded people will give you the impression that something can be normal. Long story short not everyone cares about your gender identity politics and want them in their games. 

If you're not sure what i meant then just google the definition of a trap:

Quote

trap is a boy who looks so convincingly like a female, that by the time you realize you have made a mistake, it's already too late. Transversely, a 'ReverseTrap' refers to a girl who looks very convincingly male

This has been used for years to describe character, why do you suddenly feel offended by it? And if context matters why does the mention of "nezha is a trap" is banned when it's objectively true, Nezha is a very feminine character on all depictions that is in actuality a boy. As i said already, if you want to be offended you will be offended regardless of context or intention. I disagree, but ultimately I don't care enough. 

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1 minute ago, Sean said:

From what I have looked into personally, its more in the minority of people who consider it hateful. Now if you only follow along with the same sphere of individuals, then that can make things appear greater than they are. Of course any community with that exact mindset would think the similarly, and thus make it seem greater.

I do have to agree that you and I most likely have different perspectives on this because of who we are surrounded by. Horses stay with horses, and cattle stays with cattle, etc. but it doesn't change that it is sometimes used in a very negative manner. I.e. the word trap means "they're trapping you into thinking they're the opposite sex by dressing as a member of the opposite sex." To a trans person like myself, that's horrifying. I'm not dressing as the opposite gender to trap anyone, I'm dressing this way because it's who I am, it's how I identify, and in a way it's telling me that I'm not entirely valid because of it.

I hope that kinda puts it into perspective a bit- but again, I do respect that you and I probably are surrounded by different people, therefore you most likely never hear in a negative light, and more of in a joking manner

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6 minutes ago, Sean said:

From what I have looked into personally, its more in the minority of people who consider it hateful. Now if you only follow along with the same sphere of individuals, then that can make things appear greater than they are. Of course any community with that exact mindset would think similarly, and thus make it seem greater.

There are groups out there that take pride in "appearing feminine", it may be something of an "old guard vs new" however, as I've come across people complaining that other people were using it to self-describe as that in a positive way.

 

It's a word that heavily relies on context, and just like a lot of words can of course be used negatively.

It is that reliance on context is what makes me heavily opposed to any blanket-bans on it, it instead needs to be something treated with more nuance and rely more on reports and the chat moderators themselves.

Being friends with many people among the trap community, thank you. This blanket ban on the word, and the marginalization and oppression of their community, has been weighing on me heavily since it was senselessly added to the filter.

Denying the word trap is to deny an entire swathe of people their right to representation and freedom of expression. Traps have as much right to exist and name themselves thus as trans folk.

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Just now, notbydesign said:

You're not wrong and you seem well versed enough in whatever context you have, and you don't seem like a S#&$lord, so there may be some merit to that.

I try not to be... sometimes.... :clem:

 

Quote

There absolutely IS merit to the fact that context is important. I'm sure it happens where people are getting banned for referring to trapping someone with Vauban or something, (brain fart, couldn't come up with anything better than Vauban.) and getting banned. That shouldn't be happening and I agree. But I do have 1st hand experience when I said I would trap with Equinox's sleep and I was NOT banned. 

Question though, were you in a squad chat? Bans are only really handed out with the bot present.



 

Quote

The Nezha meme really should just fizzle out though. It's super childish and not very becoming. I have friends I'd like to join the game one day and for this to not be a thing.

Yeah.... I honestly find the "nezha is a trap" idiotic, but will admit the very first time I saw Nezha, I did think it was a "female" frame (as much as a fictional thing of pixels can be)... obviously I found out after what it was based on.

It just feels like DE "fed the trolls" as it were with that... the meme would have died ages ago if it was simply "left".

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Wait....so now I'm finding out that gentrification is ruining my favorite game?!?! A word is a word, period. If it offends YOU, that is YOUR problem to deal with, it's not my responsibility.  Guess what? Just because you change the name of something, or more commonly pretend it no longer exists, doesn't change a single thing in reality. Leave your issues at the loading screen tenno. I'm here to rule the galaxy, not tip toe around a princess who lives in a bubble. 

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58 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Rebecca,

I'm curious: why has DE not opted with just getting rid of Region entirely? It seems to be more of a problem than it is worth, and, to be frank, looks nigh unfixable. Would it not make more sense to simply remove it and then, after a few months (or maybe even a year) introduce a new channel dedicated solely to players helping players? I get that you want Warframe to have some sort of "social space", but it's clear that Region just isn't fulfilling that role. People want to have carte blanche to say whatever they want, and I think, many level headed people would agree, that that is not a good idea. Chat does need to be restricted, but this may be something that requires a complete rework. Taking it offline entirely would give you the breathing room to actually think about better ways to implement a "social space" with a clearer set of rules/code of conduct, as well as getting a new group of moderators, as opposed to this ad hoc "on the fly" approach to fixing the problem.

Just some thoughts on the matter.

Taking it offline would destroy any semblance of a social space. Multiple regions are hard to maintain sure but these weekly reports are only a snap shot of what is being moderated/worked on by the third-party. It doesn't show the majority of what is going on, only that which is notable. To say region is a definitive failure and needs to be removed is rash at this point. Especially since it's the first time they've had an unbiased team to moderate all parties.

If they were to replace region chat I'd say go with a global chat to keep things more centralized. If it was to be a players helping players chat, moderation would only get more restrictive pushing out the social aspect of an open chat space.

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On 2019-02-25 at 11:49 PM, (NSW)revfunk said:

Wait....so now I'm finding out that gentrification is ruining my favorite game?!?! A word is a word, period. If it offends YOU, that is YOUR problem to deal with, it's not my responsibility.  Guess what? Just because you change the name of something, or more commonly pretend it no longer exists, doesn't change a single thing in reality. Leave your issues at the loading screen tenno. I'm here to rule the galaxy, not tip toe around a princess who lives in a bubble. 

And I'm here to play the game, not tolerate toxicity from socially irresponsible people. If YOU can't maintain a baseline courtesy when interacting with people, its YOUR problem to deal with.

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11 minutes ago, Nomicakes said:

Denying the word trap is to deny an entire swathe of people their right to representation and freedom of expression. Traps have as much right to exist and name themselves thus as trans folk.

Lol, chill. They have in no way, shape or form been denied their rights or their freedom of expression. They still have a right to exist, a right to express themselves, a right to name themselves and call themselves whatever they want. Banning a word from a chat in a game has no effect what so ever on anyone's rights. 

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Just now, rune_me said:

Lol, chill. They have in no way, shape or form been denied their rights or their freedom of expression. They still have a right to exist, a right to express themselves, a right to name themselves and call themselves whatever they want. Banning a word from a chat in a game has no effect what so ever on anyone's rights. 

They sure can't talk about it ingame anymore. A certain other group gets to go ham in that respect though.

Not to mention all the false positives of people getting auto-kicked for mentioning game mechanics that involve traps.

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3 minutes ago, Nomicakes said:

They sure can't talk about it ingame anymore. A certain other group gets to go ham in that respect though.

Not to mention all the false positives of people getting auto-kicked for mentioning game mechanics that involve traps.

Being able to call yourself what you want in the chat of a game is not a right, is what I'm saying. It's a service being offered. Your rights aren't being taken away from you. If saying the word or calling yourself that were made illegal, if you were fined or persecuted for doing it, etc, then it would violate your rights. This is not the case.

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7 minutes ago, Postal_pat said:

Taking it offline would destroy any semblance of a social space.

There is a bit of ambiguity when I say "taking it offline" and so let me clarify. When I say, "taking it offline", I mean that DE should: 1) Disable/remove Region chat and then 2) Behind closed doors, "think about better ways to implement a "social space" with a clearer set of rules/code of conduct, as well as getting a new group of moderators, as opposed to this ad hoc "on the fly" approach to fixing the problem".

The new and improved "social space" would not exist offline. It would replace the current Region. But it would only exist once DE has taken the time necessary, away from the prying eyes of the community, to do a sort of lessons learned and look at how to better improve things to implement the new "social space". It would still require the strictest of moderating though, because people cannot be trusted to behave themselves online. But at least clearer and more thorough rules/code of conduct could be created to help.

 

13 minutes ago, Postal_pat said:

If it was to be a players helping players chat, moderation would only get more restrictive pushing out the social aspect of an open chat space.

Honestly, I don't see the problem with that.

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On 2019-02-25 at 11:49 PM, (NSW)revfunk said:

A word is a word, period. If it offends YOU, that is YOUR problem to deal with, it's not my responsibility.

So white racists should just tell black people that it's their fault if they get upset and that tossing the N-word their way it their problem too?

If someone goes around saying your wife/girlfriend/mother is a... woman of ill repute would you just shrug and tell that person to deal with it without saying anything?

How about treating others with respect and standing up at least a little bit for what's right?

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1 minute ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

There is a bit of ambiguity when I say "taking it offline" and so let me clarify. When I say, "taking it offline", I mean that DE should: 1) Disable/remove Region chat and then 2) Behind closed doors, "think about better ways to implement a "social space" with a clearer set of rules/code of conduct, as well as getting a new group of moderators, as opposed to this ad hoc "on the fly" approach to fixing the problem".

The new and improved "social space" would not exist offline. It would replace the current Region. But it would only exist once DE has taken the time necessary, away from the prying eyes of the community, to do a sort of lessons learned and look at how to better improve things to implement the new "social space". It would still require the strictest of moderating though, because people cannot be trusted to behave themselves online. But at least clearer and more thorough rules/code of conduct could be created to help.

 

Honestly, I don't see the problem with that.

So while region chat is disabled/removed DE is thinking and taking their time. Where are the people meant to go that use region chat? Discord perhaps? Forcing people to use a third party just to socialize. If a new player walks during this time are they expected to jump into a clan, forums, discord to be able to socialize?

You yourself say they are trying to make a "social space" but you don't see a problem with a new chat being non-sociable.

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16 minutes ago, Hobie-wan said:

So white racists should just tell black people that it's their fault if they get upset and that tossing the N-word their way it their problem too?

If someone goes around saying your wife/girlfriend/mother is a... woman of ill repute would you just shrug and tell that person to deal with it without saying anything?

How about treating others with respect and standing up at least a little bit for what's right?

I think context is always important. Not everone that uses the n-word is a racist (as proven by what feel like 80% of all rap songs by afroamerican people)

I worked in South Africa for a while and everyone and their mother got called the N-word by literally everyone. Even I was called this and I am white as a cheese.

in any way it helps to get a thicker skin.

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10 minutes ago, Hobie-wan said:

So white racists should just tell black people that it's their fault if they get upset and that tossing the N-word their way it their problem too?

If someone goes around saying your wife/girlfriend/mother is a... woman of ill repute would you just shrug and tell that person to deal with it without saying anything?

How about treating others with respect and standing up at least a little bit for what's right?

Again....that is MY problem to choose how I act. Neither of your scenarios disprove anything I said tenno. Call a black man the "n-word" (which even by saying that you just used that word) and at the end of the day nothing has changed. What's right? Respect??? Again, subjective words that only apply to the one using them. Mental masturbation tenno.....masturbation. 

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1 minute ago, Helch0rn said:

I think context is always important. Not everone that uses the n-word is a racist (as proven by what feel like 80% of all rap songs by afroamerican people)

I worked in South Africa for a while and everyone and their mother got called the N-word by literally everyone. Even I was called this and I am white as a cheese.

in any way it help to get a thicker skin.

Exactly....its ALL subjective. 

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10 minutes ago, Postal_pat said:

So while region chat is disabled/removed DE is thinking and taking their time. Where are the people meant to go that use region chat? Discord perhaps? Forcing people to use a third party just to socialize. If a new player walks during this time are they expected to jump into a clan, forums, discord to be able to socialize?

You yourself say they are trying to make a "social space" but you don't see a problem with a new chat being non-sociable.

You've asked and answered your own questions, so there is no point in me providing you with any.

Creating a chat exclusively catered to players asking players for help is not a bad thing at all. It's better than what currently exists.

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3 minutes ago, (NSW)revfunk said:

Exactly....its ALL subjective. 

Well yeah, exactly. If it is all subjective, then there can be no objective rule as to what is right and wrong to say. That means it becomes up to each individual person or organization to make up some rules that fits into their world-view and their morality. If we all agreed which words were good or bad, there would not be a need for any rules at all, because we would all just avoid ever using those "bad" words. But since we can't agree, we need rules. That's true for most things where we make up rules and regulations. If we could all agree on what driving responsibly meant, we wouldn't need speed limits either. 

Ultimately that's why a chat like this has rules. Because, as is very evident by this thread, we clearly can't all agree. So it falls to the owners, in this case DE, to make some rules and tell us what is and isn't okay. That is the result of it being, as you correctly said, all subjective.

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Can we ban the word "weeb " too regardless of context? I find it incredibly harmful and offensive, and i know some people don't find it harmful at all but I'm SURE that the majority that find it offensive completely outweigh those who don't. please. Thanks DE.

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6 minutes ago, Ely.I said:

Can we ban the word "weeb " too regardless of context? I find it incredibly harmful and offensive, and i know some people don't find it harmful at all but I'm SURE that the majority that find it offensive completely outweigh those who don't. please. Thanks DE.

I think you are failing to understood what chat moderation is. It's not about what you find offensive. It's also not about what the majority finds offensive. It's about what the people who runs the chat and makes the rules finds offensive. They are the ones who program the kickbot, so they decide what words will trigger it.

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1 minute ago, rune_me said:

I think you are failing to understood what chat moderation is. It's not about what you find offensive. It's also not about what the majority finds offensive. It's about what the people who runs the chat and makes the rules finds offensive. They are the ones who program the kickbot, so they decide what words will trigger it.

Bless you rune_me

Spoken the truth

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