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[DE]Rebecca

Chat Moderation Changes and Additions Report!

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3 minutes ago, Me.Church said:

No apparently the issue cannot be discussed at all.

Said on the 13th page of a discussion about chat moderation....

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2 minutes ago, spaceageGecko said:

I'm well aware but the discussion can be had without pointing to the specific video, all that does is inflame. Discuss solutions instead of who is right and who is wrong because the inherently opens the door for more toxic discussion.

Toxic is a pretty loaded word, as anything that contradicts DE can be interpreted as toxic dependent upon the reader.

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Your inability to comprehend the actual purpose of this thread is staggering. It truly boggles the mind.

No. I will say that I can't comprehend the cherry-picking of the moderators though. That's what's mind-boggling to me.

 

2 minutes ago, spaceageGecko said:

I'm well aware but the discussion can be had without pointing to the specific video

Weeks before the video was made, this was done, and those posts were deleted.

 

2 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Said on the 13th page of a discussion about chat moderation....

mmm I feel like you missed the point. Was referring specifically to what the video spoke of. Posts about that were made here weeks ago and subsequently deleted, long before the video was ever made.

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2 minutes ago, Me.Church said:

I will say that I can't comprehend the cherry-picking of the moderators though. 

Because it ties intimately with the purpose of this thread, which you also do not comprehend. They go hand in hand.

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On 2019-02-26 at 6:40 PM, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

-Snip-

Did it ever occur to you that if the desing of Nezha wasn't a gender ambiguous Sailor Moon homage, that entire meme would never have been born?

Also, did it ever occur to you that if DE hadn't cracked down on that meme, it likely would have died off and not have gotten the wheels that it did?

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1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

Did it ever occur to you that if the desing of Nezha wasn't a gender ambiguous Sailor Moon homage, that entire meme would never have been born?

Also, did it ever occur to you that if DE hadn't cracked down on that meme, it likely would have died off and not have gotten the wheels that it did?

Did it ever occur to you that if players were mature enough to not obsess over the gender of infested flesh in metal suits, this would never have been an issue in the first place?

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6 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Did it ever occur to you that if the desing of Nezha wasn't a gender ambiguous Sailor Moon homage, that entire meme would never have been born?

Also, did it ever occur to you that if DE hadn't cracked down on that meme, it likely would have died off and not have gotten the wheels that it did?

It's best not to speak hypothetically. Regardless if DE made it worse it's still offensive, don't dance around the point.

Edited by spaceageGecko
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3 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Because it ties intimately with the purpose of this thread, which you also do not comprehend. They go hand in hand.

Right right. So let's not talk about the video where a person makes recommendations for the in-game chat moderation as well as guides of the lotus. Let's not talk about the years-old suspicions that people have had about the chat moderators and guides of the lotus programs in order to quell rumors and heresay. The thread about chat moderation changes is definitely not the place to talk about what people don't like about the current chat moderators and what should be clarified and changed, if they are to stay.

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On 2019-02-14 at 12:39 AM, TheRealShade said:

Hmm, would it maybe be a bit better if instead of kicking players right off the bat, the bot could delete the message and send a warning via PM first? At a 2nd offense then it should kick them.

Seems like a good idea from my spot on the sidelines. 

On 2019-02-13 at 11:15 PM, peterc3 said:

Anything beyond non-DE people claiming this applies at all to DE's chat? It's usually people taking a vague understanding of other countries' laws and making sweeping assumptions.

Haven't seen anything, but to be fair? I haven't dug very hard. Worth consideration though.

On 2019-02-14 at 12:44 AM, WhiteMarker said:

Wouldn't it be better if people stopped using insults and bad memes all the time?

How are you helping? How is this statement helping. You come off as 'look how much better than youand all these other plebs I am by stating the obvious.' Yes it would be better if you didn't have overuse of memes and insults, but it happens. What is being advocated is having more than just a hammer in the proverbial toolbox and in this instance getting out pruning sheers in a way that's automated with automated notification to the person that sent the now deleted message. Best part is the bot can then aggrigate who sends how many messages it has to delete into stat reports so ther'es an easy to track metric mods can go over and make a determination on 'ok now that I'm involved I'm looking over your stats page and wow... chatbot doesn't like you.'

On 2019-02-14 at 9:53 AM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

There are serious flaws in the system. Both the automated and the human sides need a very serious review, because what I have seen suggests that some of what we are having problems with, is not the direct result of DE policy, but rather the effects caused by individuals or groups within the system using the leeway to steer it in their own direction. 

Well said. <3

My above suggestion on how chatbot works is what I would propose. If anyone has concerns or preferably reasons why this has been tried and confirmed to not work?  DE has confirmed chatbot DOES collect stats and log, so what I'm suggesting at least to me sounds like it just modifies existing behavior instead of creating whole new behaviors.

Then once this gets hashed out for PC can it get implemented on consoles? Apparently they Really need the help.

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Did it ever occur to you that if players were mature enough to not obsess over the gender of infested flesh in metal suits, this would never have been an issue in the first place?

Well there is Internet Rule 34, which is part of this.

On a more serious note, most of the language around trans terms aren't exactly clear, so instead of kickbot banning people, if they knew the right word for it (or better yet, the models on Nezha and Equinox were altered) that would kill this meme on the spot.  The problem lies with base warframe models that aren't as clearly identifiable as male or female combined with memes about that ambiguity and being unable to properly discuss it.

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1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

The problem lies with base warframe models that aren't as clearly identifiable as male or female combined with memes about that ambiguity and being unable to properly discuss it.

Why do things have to be clearly identified as male or female for the playerbase to act respectfully towards one another?  This sounds like an excuse for boorish behavior.

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4 minutes ago, Me.Church said:

Right right. So let's not talk about the video where a person makes recommendations for the in-game chat moderation as well as guides of the lotus. Let's not talk about the years-old suspicions that people have had about the chat moderators and guides of the lotus programs in order to quell rumors and heresay. The thread about chat moderation changes is definitely not the place to talk about what people don't like about the current chat moderators and what should be clarified and changed, if they are to stay.

The video took a page out of the "Beating a Dead Horse" school of rhetoric by dwelling on issues that have already been identified and are well known. If you wanted to discuss the recommendations made in the video, then you should have brought those (and only those) items forward. They were (potentially) new and beneficial topics to discuss. Unfortunately, the entire video is tainted due to the (actual or perceived) disrespectful manner of its presentation. DE has clearly indicated that it was disrespectful to them, and whether you agree with that or not is immaterial. You want to make things better, you do not dwell on the past, but present ideas for a better future.

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10 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

The video took a page out of the "Beating a Dead Horse" school of rhetoric by dwelling on issues that have already been identified and are well known. If you wanted to discuss the recommendations made in the video, then you should have brought those (and only those) items forward. They were (potentially) new and beneficial topics to discuss. Unfortunately, the entire video is tainted due to the (actual or perceived) disrespectful manner of its presentation. DE has clearly indicated that it was disrespectful to them, and whether you agree with that or not is immaterial. You want to make things better, you do not dwell on the past, but present ideas for a better future.

Allegations of nepotism and favouritism have never been acknowledged or identified by DE at any point in time. According to the responses on twitter there were a number of people who have never heard of this issue before, despite it being a thing for a long time.

You cannot make recommendations for problems unless you clearly discuss the problems yourself and specifically state, with evidence why you think its a problem. This is what was done in the video and it is what you are dismissing as "beating a dead horse". It is illogical to just say, "Hey I think we should do X, Y and Z." That would make no sense because no context would be given.

People have brought up the issue in the past in a much less abrasive and volative manner. Tell me what was done about it then. Tell me what did DE do to smash those allegations when they were made back then. Nothing. This is why it's back again. That's how that works. If you do nothing to resolve a problem, it will still exist.

However the narration and the tone of the video was produced, it simply does not invalidate the facts nor the evidence presented. If the staff wish to overlook those things because "muh feelings" then they are the ones refusing to accept what was said and undo their mistakes. Crying about your spilt milk is something only a child would do.

EDIT: for the record, DE has all rights to disagree with the volatile manner of the video. But I haven't seen anything else with regards to rectifying the issues raised. As far as I know, the video was simply dismissed. At the end of the day, that's terribly disappointing.

Edited by Me.Church
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Discussion is important to keep an open dialogue, but spamming, attacking other posters for their views and abusive language have no place on the forums. We want to keep discussion open, but it needs to be civil and constructive.

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2 minutes ago, Me.Church said:

Allegations of nepotism and favouritism have never been acknowledged or identified by DE at any point in time. According to the responses on twitter there were a number of people who have never heard of this issue before, despite it being a thing for a long time.

You cannot make recommendations for problems unless you clearly discuss the problems yourself and specifically state, with evidence why you think its a problem. This is what was done in the video and it is what you are dismissing as "beating a dead horse". It is illogical to just say, "Hey I think we should do X, Y and Z." That would make no sense because no context would be given.

People have brought up the issue in the past in a much less abrasive and volative manner. Tell me what was done about it then. Tell me what did DE do to smash those allegations when they were made back then. Nothing. This is why it's back again. That's how that works. If you do nothing to resolve a problem, it will still exist.

However the narration and the tone of the video was produced, it simply does not invalidate the facts nor the evidence presented. If the staff wish to overlook those things because "muh feelings" then they are the ones refusing to accept what was said and undo their mistakes. Crying about your spilt milk is something only a child would do.

Who cares if "a number of people [...] have never heard of this issue before"? DE is aware of these alleged issues and they are the only ones who need to be aware of them. Given that others have "brought up these issue [sic] in the past in a much less abrasive and volative [sic] manner" means that they are aware of them. It is DE sole prerogative to do with that information as they see fit. Whether they did or did not do anything before is immaterial. They have decided to take action now. That is all that matters. Let them take whatever action they deem necessary, since it is their game, after all. Given the size of the playerbase, it is nigh impossible to please everyone, no matter what DE decides to do. Quite frankly, they shouldn't attempt to please everyone. They should do what they think is right and necessary for their game. Again, the video was not, in any way, helpful or conducive to bringing about a civil resolution. Yes, there were some good recommendations made, but how those recommendations are made are just as important (if not more important) than the recommendations themselves. 

To reiterate: If you wanted to discuss the recommendations made in the video, then you should have brought those (and only those) items forward. They were (potentially) new and beneficial topics to discuss.

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21 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

I'll be dropping in and posting some of the weekly reports I get from our professional Mod team so everyone knows what we're tracking and why in terms of moderation and noteable trends. It should be very clear from these reports the entirety of why we bother Moderating at all, and what our priorities are since making systemic changes. Luckily for a game as large as ours our Problematic User list is quite short, but it allows us a consolidated area to keep our in-game Region chat focused on our Space Ninja game. Nezha is a trap is pure spam - kickbot kicks spam as per the 'no spamming' rule.
image.png

Why the hell is "Anti-feminist discussion" a bannable offense? Feminism is a movement, being against it is no crime whatsoever. If the criticism was inflammatory, then state "inflammatory language" as reason and not being against a movement. What the hell DE! I expect better, especially if Rebecca links to this post with the caption "We are not ignoring it. This is what directs chat moderation, plain and simple. Objective professional reports. Our ability to tailor kickbot.".

And why does "Nezha is a trap" discussion gets singled out when the point below is "Sexual discussion"? Why the bias?

Edited by KaeseSchnitte
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14 minutes ago, [DE]Marcus said:

Discussion is important to keep an open dialogue, but spamming, attacking other posters for their views and abusive language have no place on the forums. We want to keep discussion open, but it needs to be civil and constructive.

 

Going to be blunt here, but when will the discussion actually begin?

As stated throughout this topic, there isn't much in terms of a discussion going on with any employees in relation to the feedback that has been said.

 

In the topic from a few months ago, @[DE]Bear created a topic, then zero employees posted within it after that point.

In this topic, @[DE]Rebecca created it, left it alone, then just came back to drop a "report" and still left any of the previous questions go unanswered.

 

Having the community just keep debating amongst itself won't get anyone anywhere, for things to improve there needs to be an open dialogue between the ones that can actually affect the system and those that have offered feedback.

Edited by Sean
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7 minutes ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

Why the hell is "Anti-feminist discussion" a bannable offense?

Because women are people and deserving of equal rights and dignity.

8 minutes ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

And why does "Nezha is a trap" discussion gets singled out when the point below is "Sexual discussion"? Why the bias?

Because there is a difference between using slurs in chat and making lewd statements.

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38 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

How are you helping? How is this statement helping. You come off as 'look how much better than youand all these other plebs I am by stating the obvious.' Yes it would be better if you didn't have overuse of memes and insults, but it happens. What is being advocated is having more than just a hammer in the proverbial toolbox and in this instance getting out pruning sheers in a way that's automated with automated notification to the person that sent the now deleted message. Best part is the bot can then aggrigate who sends how many messages it has to delete into stat reports so ther'es an easy to track metric mods can go over and make a determination on 'ok now that I'm involved I'm looking over your stats page and wow... chatbot doesn't like you.'

You might want to reconsider what you just said.
The topic my answer was from got merged with this topic. I wrote an answer to a guy, who said that you shouldn't get punished for using any insult for the first time. And only for further misbehavings there should be a punishment.
And this is clearly not a good way to handle stuff. He basically said, that using insults is fine. Only if you keep on insulting, you should get punished. But you always should get punished, even if it was your first time.
And that's why I said that people should stop using insults. But hey, if you think that using bad language is fine, then power to you. This will do you good in your future life.

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Who cares if "a number of people [...] have never heard of this issue before"? DE is aware of these alleged issues and they are the only ones who need to be aware of them. Given that others have "brought up these issue [sic] in the past in a much less abrasive and volative [sic] manner" means that they are aware of them. It is DE sole prerogative to do with that information as they see fit. Whether they did or did not do anything before is immaterial.

I politely disagree. Inaction towards sensitive topics is not good and it is why things escalate in the first place. Positive consumerism includes being able to hold companies accountable and vice versa. Sure it's their company, but you and I are stakeholders. We are directly afffected by what takes place. So when serious issues are raised, positive action should be taken as soon as possible.

 

8 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

They have decided to take action now. That is all that matters. Let them take whatever action they deem necessary, since it is their game, after all.

I sure hope they have decided to take action. But I hope it is the right action they take. At the end of the day I love DE and no I'm not just saying that passively. In my post that got deleted, I talked about how, for 6 years, I feel like I've been on a journey with these people. Connections were made and I've come to know them and consider them as a large part of my life now. It is almost a familial-like concern that I have for them. This is why I simply hope that they act out of humility and also out of their desire to be transparent. It is what they have shown me over the past 6 years that they are capable of and so that is why I expect that of them.

 

11 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Given the size of the playerbase, it is nigh impossible to please everyone, no matter what DE decides to do. Quite frankly, they shouldn't attempt to please everyone. They should do what they think is right and necessary for their game.

I agree that the goal of pleasing everyone is silly. But like I said, we are stakeholders too and we have the capability to inform what is done. That is what DE has always welcomed. The right thing to do, will always be the right thing to do. There's no arguing or discussing that.

 

13 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Again, the video was not, in any way, helpful or conducive to bringing about a civil resolution. Yes, there were some good recommendations made, but how those recommendations are made are just as important (if not more important) than the recommendations themselves. 

Disagree. As a professional, you shouldn't need help to be civil about resolving a matter. Your behaviour need not be informed by other people's behaviour. You can be civil all by yourself. Because the person was "not civil" is no excuse for you to be "not civil" either and simply berate him and dismiss the allegations. It works both ways. Recommendations? I think the abrasive part of the video was when context was being given. The recommendations were fine and imo, the part that was "least abrasive".

 

19 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

To reiterate: If you wanted to discuss the recommendations made in the video, then you should have brought those (and only those) items forward. They were (potentially) new and beneficial topics to discuss.

Disagree as well. Like I said before, you can't make recommendations unless you've thoroughly understood the problem and quite frankly I feel like, apart from his harsh tone, the thing people are having a problem with is all the "evidence" that was given in regards to his allegations. The only time that evidence (supporting a claim against you) should ever perturb you is when it is false evidence. So if it's false evidence, one should expect a transparent response denying the claims and evidence presented, but also you should supply what you deem to be the truth. Simply dismissing something and going your merry way does not foster understanding at all, to either parties involved. That's just regressive behaviour. Again, I will state that, in my opinion, the responses were disappointing and also not conducive to a timely resolution.

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A suggestion for moving forward.

When Nezha got tweaked (no new powers or new passive, not worth calling it a rework) @[DE]Pablo did a great job on telling the community what was wrong with the power, the mindset behind the change and the power itself in its new state.

This allowed the community to appreciate form and function of changes with absolute transparency and communication from the dev working on it.

This I believe is how this should be addressed.

- a list of statements or phrases that can be accessed in game that are banned. Some will indeed go without saying. This list will also allow those who bait people into being banned to be called out and for the community to have some understanding of what can and can't be said within reason.

- if possible too, I at least find it useful to see which mods are online at the time.

On discord I find it useful to see what is being discussed with who is on so I can gain a better understanding of how a person thinks, in turn allowing for better learning of a person and greater discussion to be had. If we got a chance to get to know the mods a little, things may be a little less tense when things go awry.

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51 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Why do things have to be clearly identified as male or female for the playerbase to act respectfully towards one another?  This sounds like an excuse for boorish behavior.

It's because most are extremely clumsy with language that refers to nontraditional gender, so most use words that the community finds offensive because they simply don't know any better.  Don't assume malice when ignorance is a valid explanation.

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10 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Because women are people and deserving of equal rights and dignity.

Feminism is not synonymous with "Women deserve equal rights", though I can forgive you for thinking that in today's climate. Criticizing feminism does not imply that one is against equal rights for women. Some people want to conflate the two, but they're two separate things. DE failing to make that distinction worries me. If someone was attacking women in particular, then "sexism" can be stated as bannable offense, or, as I already pointed out, "inflammatory language".

Quote

Because there is a difference between using slurs in chat and making lewd statements.

Then they should report "slurs" and not a meme.

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2 minutes ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

Feminism is not synonymous with "Women deserve equal rights", though I can forgive you for thinking that in today's climate. Criticizing feminism does not imply that one is against equal rights for women. Some people want to conflate the two, but they're two separate things. DE failing to make that distinction worries me. If someone was attacking women in particular, then "sexism" can be stated as bannable offense, or, as I already pointed out, "inflammatory language".

Exactly this.

For example, I believe that everyone should be treated equally regardless of their race, gender, religious background, ethnicity, etc, etc, etc.   I can also have concerns that Fourth-wave Feminism is counterproductive to that belief - mostly due to identity politics.

Someone is going to take issue with the above and misconstrue it as hate speech and me as a misogynist because certain value systems don't allow for the intellectual flexibility to separate expressing a concern from flaming a group.  Those value systems are driving certain chat moderator's actions fully explain why we have this chat moderation cluster we have now.

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6 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

It's because most are extremely clumsy with language that refers to nontraditional gender, so most use words that the community finds offensive because they simply don't know any better.  Don't assume malice when ignorance is a valid explanation.

People shouldn't be using words they don't understand then.  They also shouldn't be weighing in on conversations that can get very problematic, very fast, without knowing anything about it.  That's part of being respectful and mature.

10 minutes ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

Feminism is not synonymous with "Women deserve equal rights", though I can forgive you for thinking that in today's climate.

Except, that's what it is defined as.

10 minutes ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

Then they should report "slurs" and not a meme.

You're basically arguing just to argue now.

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