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[DE]Rebecca

Chat Moderation Changes and Additions Report!

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On 2019-02-25 at 4:38 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

I'll be dropping in and posting some of the weekly reports I get from our professional Mod team so everyone knows what we're tracking and why in terms of moderation and noteable trends. It should be very clear from these reports the entirety of why we bother Moderating at all, and what our priorities are since making systemic changes. Luckily for a game as large as ours our Problematic User list is quite short, but it allows us a consolidated area to keep our in-game Region chat focused on our Space Ninja game. Nezha is a trap is pure spam - kickbot kicks spam as per the 'no spamming' rule.
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So... when can we see some actual results and accountability from DE? DE just tried to avoid any criticism made by a harsh, but well made and accurate video from Rahetalius by attacking him.

AGGP is STILL a guide, despite saying horrible things on stream and twitter including using warframe to fantasize about killing everyone who voted for trump. Meanwhile Danielle targeted and attacked fostinator based on a SJW agenda, got him kicked from the guides for first defending himself, then again for making a video based on DE NOT giving him information.

We have tons of proof of many other moderators being corrupt and the entire system as a whole a giant case of nepotism. All of this objectively true.

You might "hate" to see videos like that, but honestly that is what you guys need to see. You need to see just how hypocritical you are by trying to avoid this. You need to directly talk about and address these problems. Don't beat around the bush, do the honorable thing and face these facts.

Look, I get that you guys pride yourselves on your community relationship. I understand how the video hurt your egos because you have so much pride in how you interact with the community. However, pride means nothing without the will to do whatever it takes to back it up. You (not you, Reb, personally but DE as a whole) can be the most prideful company in the world, it wouldn't mean that its founded.

If you want your relationship with the community to continue being the source of your pride, you need to have the humility to accept criticism, even if it does hurt your ego. So talk it out point by point with Rahetalius and the rest of the community. Let's talk about why Fostinator was targeted and removed while AGGP was held to a completely different standard. Let's talk about  Telluric and the obvious abuse of power and nepotism. Don't try to hide behind calling it a "personal attack". If you want to keep your pride, then you must do what is necessary to earn and maintain it. To maintain your pride, you need the humility to accept and admit when you have messed up. As corny as it may be, even Vegeta from dragon ball z knew this when he became majin, but then gave his own life trying to fix it. Even he, the epitome of pride, had the humility to admit he messed up and gave his life to correct it.

DE, every company that starts off amazing eventually falls. Every hero that survives long enough will one day become the villain.

You are no different in that regard.

 

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1 hour ago, Me.Church said:

Why are you now sounding like you did not watch the video in its entirety? I honestly thought you had watched and understood the video entirely so that you were informed well enough to discuss it. I see errors were made.

Evidence was provided throughout the entire portion of the video that you have dismissed as "beating a dead horse"

But ok.

It definitely sounds like you ran out of bland generic points to use as rebuttals in your defense. And that's ok. Doesn't change or invalidate anything I said.

And the copy-paste on Stakeholder/Shareholder does not change what I said. They still are not always equivalents, as you clearly pointed out. But ok.

When a person willfully engages in an intellectually dishonest fashion, it invalidates everything they have said.

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2 hours ago, EquestrianWyvern said:

And when you dig to the center of this issue, where does it seem to lead back to?  Politics and Social issues that players refuse to leave outside the game.

I generally agree with most of what you wrote, but I wish to highlight that the mods are also players and so aren't excluded automatically from that portion of the blame. 

Given what you wrote about your history, I figure that you are also aware that there are good mods and bad mods. Good mods are likely to listen to feedback the way you suggested, bad mods are more likely double down and attack members who disagree with what they are doing. I've seen stuff that suggests that we do have some bad chat moderators. 

I have seen suggestions that there is a function to filter/censor certain words in the chat. If that's the case, I have to wonder why we have a bot that bans for the use of those objectionable words. Worse the bot issues no warnings, the list is populated with idiomatic phrases that seem common to North America, but are not common elsewhere. Also it is known to trigger on non-offensive phrases. People have been complaining about those issues for a long time. What's that tell you about the way this is being run? 

When your system is negatively impacting people incorrectly, and they're bundled up with people, and blatantly called bigots by moderators, and nobody actually bothers to try and fix the issues, you're going to have people who are frustrated. That's not a good thing. That's how we get here. 

 

1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

I agree, I think player/moderator education is the right way to move forward as people need to know what they did wrong and why it's wrong (especially the players that happen to lack good social skills), and most of the issue will correct itself.

In theory so does DE. Sadly not everyone tasked with moderating seems to offer actual information about the actions they take. 

When people have talked about it, I've seen one claim that it is not DE's policy that they're supposed to give information (despite screenshots of DE staff and other chat mods confirming that policy). The same one later indicated that they had no problem giving an unhelpful, uninformative explanation for their actions and deemed it appropriate. 

 

DE needs to do some serious oversight on folks like that. 

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I think a lot of us are wanting DE to own the problem, and then give us a better postmortem than what we have received, especially acknowledging the issues and what they have done (or will do) to address the issues raised by the players.

Specifically, I think a lot of us want to see a DE equivalent to the translation of what the FFXIV producer has said at http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/383746-Baldesion-Arsenal-Feedback?p=4896293#post4896293 where they address issues with the last content drop and where they missed the mark.

What I suspect is causing a lot of the anger in the playerbase is the apparent double standard with how certain people are allowed to do stuff that would get the rest of us banned, and behave with impunity.  While I know there's issues with saying explicitly calling out that you have dismissed someone from a position, at stating that you have dismissed a moderator or two would go miles to show you are serious about addressing this issue as you need to get rid of the bad fruit or lose the bushel.

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53 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

When a person willfully engages in an intellectually dishonest fashion, it invalidates everything they have said.

I agree. That's simply not the case for his video. And if you honestly believe that, I fear that you do not know the meaning of intellectual dishonesty.

Furthermore, DE has produced no evidence to show that his claims are false. They simply cried "foul". Therefore you nor anyone else can 100% claim that the video's points are simply "intellectual dishonesty" since neither you nor anyone else here has proven that the video, the evidence presented, or the allegations that the person advocates are in fact false. 

And they can't either. It will simply implicate the target persons and the staff's relationships with them even more. It's their friends. They'll never ever talk directly to this problem or about this problem at all.

If by some stretch of the imagination, you have some evidence that you somehow cannot talk about, then simply say so. Everyone will definitely believe evidence that you cannot talk about. Because from what you're telling me, someone actually presenting evidence that is tangible and which reinforces their claims/allegations is intellectual dishonesty and people shouldn't believe that. Instead people should believe claims that have no supporting evidence.

I can't help but laugh at that.

 

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3 hours ago, MagPrime said:

Those only look similar if you're hard of seeing to begin with and someone handed you the two pictures, saying they look similar.

I'm ADD and I was likely was never properly diagnosed for autism (although I strongly suspect that I have it based on research), which means I see the world differently from most people and usually pick up on connections others miss and gloss over.  About the best way to correlate my perception to reality is that it's tangential, sometimes spot on, sometimes far off, but almost always close enough to reasonably function in most circumstances.  This has it's advantages as I have a job that lets me utilize my ability to pick up on these connections to help others.

I mean, do you really want to go down this path about my mental wiring and perception?

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I'm not sure what I got suspended for first and foremost, it's been 24 hours and nothing.

A quick google search reveals there are a great number of these suspensions going out for very arbitrary seeming reasons that certainly do not warrant weeks worth of suspensions.

Even if it were justified (which I am highly doubting mine was. Getting a little anxiety over wondering just what I could have said that warranted this.)
There is little reason to remove the ability to read chat as well. If you want to remove the ability to read what was a direct result of the banning, the sure, hide chat for little more than 10 minutes. Beyond that it's just damaging to the experience and other tenno.

Lack of communication is a big enough problem in the world, it doesn't need another system making it worse.

Edited by Stinker
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23 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

I'm ADD and I was likely was never properly diagnosed for autism (although I strongly suspect that I have it based on research), which means I see the world differently from most people and usually pick up on connections others miss and gloss over.  About the best way to correlate my perception to reality is that it's tangential, sometimes spot on, sometimes far off, but almost always close enough to reasonably function in most circumstances.  This has it's advantages as I have a job that lets me utilize my ability to pick up on these connections to help others.

I mean, do you really want to go down this path about my mental wiring and perception?

Sure, let's derail this thread some more.  It's not like there's anything of substance being discussed for the past few pages.

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4 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Sure, let's derail this thread some more.  It's not like there's anything of substance being discussed for the past few pages.

... and that shows how little you're actually reading...

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On ‎2019‎-‎02‎-‎26 at 9:17 AM, Letter13 said:

Well, if they have concrete evidence of current chat moderators acting contrary to the Chat & Moderation Code of Conduct, they should contact DE staff ASAP. Going onto message boards and other sites to complain about how they've 'been wronged' by a moderator doesn't help to solve the issue.

It is unbelievable to me that this is an acceptable response. The issue here is not that "there's no proof". It is not that DE should have "no rules". It is that Mods and Guides are not held to the same standards that players are. If a player did what AGGP did, they would've been banned. This does not mean the community as a whole wants AGGP banned. What we want is DE to at least admit that they have done wrong, then to move on from this dark chapter in Warframe's history. This whole thread is such an enormous, vicious cycle that lacks the nuance necessary to solve the issue. I have no idea why DE bothers with these threads, considering they seemingly ignore most of it, and what's worth hearing has already been said years ago.

Further, when DE gives boiler-plate responses to community misgivings, they make community outrage inevitable. This isn't a "social justice in mah vidya" or whatever dumb politics people have issue. This is a blatant double standard, that comes from some people acting out of line with the Code of Conduct and not being punished for it. Chatbot's supposed sensitivity is another issue entirely. DE has a right to police their platforms how they want, but they should hold all parties equally accountable for their actions. 

And while I disagree with the last Vauban main's video's method for re-exposing all this, simply dismissing it for its delivery is NOT the best way to respond. Once again, boiler-plate responses, or even worse blatant deflections, makes community outrage inevitable. THIS is fundamentally why these threads are dead-ends. And it's such a perfect way for DE to ignore the feedback, the part of me that'd be a flat-earther if I gave it enough Caveman broth almost thinks it's intentional. Make a thread, let it go to hell, thanks users for feedback with a boiler plate response thus dooming the next thread to hell, repeat. It's so banal and frustrating it's unsurprising that this whole situation has become so heated.

So, to summarize, on behalf of the saner, apolitical parts of the community who are too exasperated to continue rationally explaining what's wrong to those who won't listen and a community team too inundated with drama to respond:
-We know that Mods have done things against CoC. We want to know that DE is at least aware.
-Then we want a proper response, explaining at least their reasoning for what happened.
-Then we want this to never happen again. How DE does this is their discretion.
-Then we go back to playing Warframe. No pitchforks, no "executions", no retroactive punishment. That's all it would take. Some will want more harsh punishments. I suggest DE ignores them.

If you actually manage to read this, DE, then thank you for your time and for your game. Please don't let it be destroyed by ultimately meaningless outside forces.

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1 hour ago, Me.Church said:

I agree. That's simply not the case for his video. And if you honestly believe that, I fear that you do not know the meaning of intellectual dishonesty.

Furthermore, DE has produced no evidence to show that his claims are false. They simply cried "foul". Therefore you nor anyone else can 100% claim that the video's points are simply "intellectual dishonesty" since neither you nor anyone else here has proven that the video, the evidence presented, or the allegations that the person advocates are in fact false. 

And they can't either. It will simply implicate the target persons and the staff's relationships with them even more. It's their friends. They'll never ever talk directly to this problem or about this problem at all.

If by some stretch of the imagination, you have some evidence that you somehow cannot talk about, then simply say so. Everyone will definitely believe evidence that you cannot talk about. Because from what you're telling me, someone actually presenting evidence that is tangible and which reinforces their claims/allegations is intellectual dishonesty and people shouldn't believe that. Instead people should believe claims that have no supporting evidence.

I can't help but laugh at that.

 

You know what is making me laugh? The fact that you think I'm talking about the video.

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4 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Hmm....

Note the bolded word?

Here, let's clarify that using https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superficial :

Notice the bold definition, specifically:

Basically:

291?cb=20151217010251

Looks like a recolored version of:

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSFgV0lOT-gc4YdcW73UTS

My point is that this comparison is a little too easy to make, which is one of the reasons why I think the memes about Nezha were created in the first place.

Related image

also nezha is clearly wearing pants in warframe 

PS: nezha is a dude 

Edited by (PS4)Spider_Enigma
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1 hour ago, Chess4Years said:

This isn't a "social justice in mah vidya" or whatever dumb politics people have issue.

Then feel free to get the people pushing that to be quiet and let adults talk.

1 hour ago, Chess4Years said:

What we want is DE to at least admit that they have done wrong, then to move on from this dark chapter in Warframe's history.

Right. It's DE that can't move on. This is all casting a real shadow over the game. 99.99999% of the players have no bloody clue about this and do not care. How this is even a chapter, let alone a footnote in microscopic lettering is absurd.

1 hour ago, Chess4Years said:

Chatbot's supposed sensitivity is another issue entirely.

IRC scripts have real feelings and they would prefer you not ignore their sensitivities.

1 hour ago, Chess4Years said:

So, to summarize, on behalf of the saner, apolitical parts of the community

Here's the crux of my issue with y'all.

You actually think you are the sane ones. You think this is apolitical. You think you have some massive silent group that is backing your view.

1 hour ago, Chess4Years said:

Then we go back to playing Warframe.

The second part of my issue. Some Youtuber prevents you from playing the game? You feel the need to sh*tpost in Region so badly that you can't play the game otherwise?

1 hour ago, Chess4Years said:

No pitchforks, no "executions", no retroactive punishment.

There are quite a few people who are "demanding" retroactive punishments. No pitchforks but you don't think the latest video was bad, just how DE responded to a callout of one of their employees. No executions but X, Y and Z need to be punished publicly.

Going to reiterate a point I made elsewhere. Sane people leave when others start throwing crap at them. Pretending the crap you're throwing isn't crap doesn't change the reality. No amount of Drama Youtube is going to force DE's hand.

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@[DE]Rebecca @[DE]Bear Hey guys, seems like a pretty heated situation here, regarding chat moderation.

I think the 'best ending' route here would be to ask for public apologies from the chat moderators that haven't been professional. Set up a short community stream, have your chat moderators appear in person if possible, or remotely via VOIP. People make mistakes, but if they don't apologize and continue making mistakes, you have a problem.

Players can be salty, but in this case they are in the right, and must be acknowledged. Rahetalius, although being a bit snarky and bringing up old issues that may have been resolved already, has a lot of good points. Threatening him with partnership termination was a bad move.

Lastly, as a game developer and moderator myself, I look up to you guys as examples, keep fighting the good fight.

Cheers,

-Zeth

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This. Always. Happens.

Come on guys, keep your composure, no one is going to come in here and have a conversation with substance if we keep acting like children.  Triggered.  I get it, this subject is hot on some people's minds because it feels personal.  Nezha is a Warframe, the original person who it was made from was male.  This Warframe wouldn't exist if not for Chinese Warframe, the Chinese LOVE their mythology and the heroes within. So they made him look that way, cool, he is effeminate. 

I am a heterosexual Caucasian male.  In almost every game there is a representation of my race and gender. Its kinda cool how much effort is given in this game to show different body types and hints at their personalities.  I wish they would keep doing this, but care must be made to distance the Warframes from our very real lives. When these things were made, there were much bigger problems then trying to figure out where on a gender spectrum/web you lied.  Nope, they actually feared being persecuted, and tortured in a very real and final way.

So how does this get dealt with?  If you want Warframes to be characters, then we need to be able to get to know who they were much better, a la Umbra.  Until this happens they will continue to be a mirror for players to fill with their own image.  

This cyclical argument that always comes up...its exhausting to read and it stems from two simple facts.  The word "trap" has different meanings.  In anime culture it is a very effeminate character that you instantly assume is female and are led to believe this until the reveal is made, making the straight male suddenly have to question their sexuality, as this arena of thought is fair game in Asia.  As these concepts migrate to our shores, we then must wrestle with it as well. How do most people deal with things they are uncomfortable with? Humor, even if it is poorly executed.  This is further layered by our own modern internet culture.  

On the other side in LBGT culture, a trap is a derogatory term for someone who is intentionally trying to mimic a female to sleep with straight males. This may seem harmless but is the primary fuel in homophobia, as straight males are worried they will approached and hit on by another male.  Worse still, this has led to violence on people in these situations even when that person has in no way attempted to trick anyone into a sexual encounter they didn't want.  

These two concepts are where our friction lies. You can believe whatever you want, but the Devs have stated they don't want any this bullS#&$ on their platform and that's that.

However....

You're not off the hook either DE, all this "trap"speak is just a distraction for the real issue at hand.  I get that you are trying your best to make a video game, and making a video game has nothing at all to do with chat moderation, so bringing in some people to help out was a good idea.  Then they got rowdy and made some people upset (I have had uncomfortable moments with one of the "4 horsemen" which is alias I will use to describe the people that sparked this whole debacle).  At some point you will need to make changes, and I can see that you have some things, but its the weird stuff that is pissing off the guys who keep bringing it up.  Why are the 4 horsemen still out there?  Why did it take until THIS MONTH for one of them to finally change their name?  (I actually met her and added her as a friend, kindness can go a long way, especially with someone on the defensive. she seemed nice.) You don't owe me anything. I have reached out to you before and was struck down by callousness, that event will forever paint you in what I assume are your true colors. However, you can't have this game and your quality of life while let your community sour like this. Maybe a community spotlight, introduce the 4 horsemen, put their history out there and have them write an apology to the community, take away whatever power you have given them, there are plenty of ways to address this issue, but turning your nose up at it is not one of them and this whole business is what happens, and it will continue to sour and spread. As an NCO in US Army, I have learned some things, and one of the most important lessons is:

-Bad news gets worse with time.

 

Sincerely,

The voice of one of 14 million registered losers. 

Edited by Danjal777
Typing for dummies.
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11 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

This is contradictory.

When women talk about equality, it's identity politics.  But, when you want to argue against them it's somehow not identity politics.  Got it.

Bravo, intellectual dishonesty at it's finest. My question is why do we have "Feminism" in the first place? Why can we not be humanist? The 3rd and 4th wave Feminists care nothing about Equality. They want power with out responsibility. Do some research.

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3 hours ago, zetheros1 said:

I think the 'best ending' route here would be to ask for public apologies from the chat moderators that haven't been professional. Set up a short community stream, have your chat moderators appear in person if possible, or remotely via VOIP. People make mistakes, but if they don't apologize and continue making mistakes, you have a problem.

This is a joke and would never happen.

3 hours ago, zetheros1 said:

Threatening him with partnership termination was a bad move.

They aren't obligated to partner with him. This is so completely bizarre.

2 hours ago, CuChulainnWD said:

Bravo, intellectual dishonesty at it's finest. My question is why do we have "Feminism" in the first place? Why can we not be humanist? The 3rd and 4th wave Feminists care nothing about Equality. They want power with out responsibility. Do some research.

This is exactly why we have feminism. You.

Edited by peterc3
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4 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Then feel free to get the people pushing that to be quiet and let adults talk.

Vocal minority. Not my problem.

4 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Right. It's DE that can't move on. This is all casting a real shadow over the game. 99.99999% of the players have no bloody clue about this and do not care. How this is even a chapter, let alone a footnote in microscopic lettering is absurd.

No. DE can't move on because so far, DE hasn't acknowledged the problem in the first place. Boiler-plate responses don't cut it. Nor do deflections. As it stands, DE seems to want to brush this aside as hard as possible without ever admitting to their mistakes. They want to make sure we all know that they're working on 'it', to solve 'it', without ever stating out loud that 'it' is the blatant double standard they have displayed. I care more, obviously, that the problem gets solved at all. But it would be infinitely better to have DE's guarantee that this would never happen again, step 1 of which is acknowledging that which they don't want to have happen. In no uncertain terms.

Further, when I said 'dark chapter', I was being facetious. I don't actually think this is such a big issue that everybody is talking about it. When I said that I wanted us to simply go back to playing Warframe, I meant everyone that is part of this discussion. I never attempted to minimize or maximize the gravitas of the problem. All I was saying was what I believed to be the most sensible position, based on what was the least painful concession from DE that would solve most of the outspoken community's woes. 

4 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Here's the crux of my issue with y'all.

You actually think you are the sane ones. You think this is apolitical. You think you have some massive silent group that is backing your view.

The second part of my issue. Some Youtuber prevents you from playing the game? You feel the need to sh*tpost in Region so badly that you can't play the game otherwise?

I have yet to see evidence to the contrary.

I don't claim that the problem doesn't have political elements to it. I do think a number of people are trying to make this a battle over 'mah sjws in vidya'. However, the criticisms of DE are (mostly) not coming from such kinds of people. The criticisms are based on objective accounts of what we know to have happened. If the reason DE did it was political, that's completely irrelevant. If the reason DE did it wasn't political, that's completely irrelevant. What matters in this case was that DE still did it.

No. I don't think some massive group is backing me or my view, but I do know that it's called the 'silent majority' for a reason. Many people who know this stuff to be true but don't care enough to articulate it, or even acknowledge the problem at all. Most people have bigger problems to deal with. 

If you genuinely think the issue is about Magposting in region chat, you a) haven't been paying attention, b) don't care to know, c) are arguing for the sake of arguing. In all cases, I think you are wasting your own time. You are acting foolishly, either due to a lack of information, or for short term amusement, thus sacrificing long term credibility.

5 hours ago, peterc3 said:

There are quite a few people who are "demanding" retroactive punishments. No pitchforks but you don't think the latest video was bad, just how DE responded to a callout of one of their employees. No executions but X, Y and Z need to be punished publicly.

Going to reiterate a point I made elsewhere. Sane people leave when others start throwing crap at them. Pretending the crap you're throwing isn't crap doesn't change the reality. No amount of Drama Youtube is going to force DE's hand.

I don't care about those people. I don't speak for them, they don't speak for me. All I can argue for is my own position and those who share it.

You ignored the part where I disagreed with the method of criticism. What matters to me is the content of the argument, not its delivery. DE should know this, but are either using the poor method to excuse a lack of response, or so emotional as to be unwilling to acknowledge the video at all. "You may have something to say, but I don't like how you're saying it, so I'm going to ignore you and hope you go away" is a very, very poor way for DE to handle this situation. So is deflecting by throwing the baby out with the bathwater, saying that the video is just personal attacks. 

I can somewhat see what you mean when it comes to a form of public apology. However, I do not believe an apology from DE needs to involve 'naming and shaming'. "On behalf of the community team, we wholeheartedly apologize for letting down our community..." etc etc, would be a good start. And it wouldn't need to mention staff by name. They would mention the incidents that caused all this for it to count. To me, that would be enough.

Pretending the crap you're throwing at me isn't crap doesn't change reality. And it's precisely the lack of DE's hand that I think will eventually lead to the situation worsening. Not anytime soon, but eventually. I give it a year of middling half responses before something really bad happens and DE is compelled to respond. 

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Bloody Hell, just make Block actually work everywhere (as in work in open world/relays) and then let people that cant be adults turn on the chat filter (which could use some improvements but not in the "more stuff it auto censors" way/currently works more than good enough for people that feel offended by letters) with the existing "no spam same thing more than once per x interval", there all the moderation any game needs. Freedom of expression is a inherent human right codified without limitations, let it be such and people will take responsibility for the content they expose themselves to like adults blocking people that they see behave in ways they personally dont like. All issues solved.

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2 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Bloody Hell, just make Block actually work everywhere (as in work in open world/relays) and then let people that cant be adults turn on the chat filter (which could use some improvements but not in the "more stuff it auto censors" way/currently works more than good enough for people that feel offended by letters) with the existing "no spam same thing more than once per x interval", there all the moderation any game needs. Freedom of expression is a inherent human right codified without limitations, let it be such and people will take responsibility for the content they expose themselves to like adults blocking people that they see behave in ways they personally dont like. All issues solved.

There never was "freedom of expression" without limitations when expressing yourself through other people's mediums. Every newspaper, tv-station, media outlet in the world jas editors and publishers that applies censorship according to their own rules and regulations. 

Here's the good news. This doesn't in any way violate your freedom of expression. You are still free to stand on an street corner, or start your own chat/game/forum/whatever and express yourself all you want. But "freedom of expression" does not mean the right to express yourself through someone else's media, in someone else's house or restaurant or game. It never did and it never will, because the rights of those people to run their home or their business is just as important as your "freedom of expression".

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Anyone else seeing their posts get deleted by any chance or just me? My most recent post on this forum thread was deleted without any notice. Just genuinely curious as to why it was deleted in the first place.

Edited by xXDeadsinxX
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3 minutes ago, rune_me said:

There never was "freedom of expression" without limitations when expressing yourself through other people's mediums. Every newspaper, tv-station, media outlet in the world jas editors and publishers that applies censorship according to their own rules and regulations. 

Nope, they have their own right to self censorship, they however dont have the right to violate the human right to freedom of expression.

3 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Here's the good news. This doesn't in any way violate your freedom of expression. You are still free to stand on an street corner, or start your own chat/game/forum/whatever and express yourself all you want. But "freedom of expression" does not mean the right to express yourself through someone else's media, in someone else's house or restaurant or game. It never did and it never will, because the rights of those people to run their home or their business is just as important as your "freedom of expression".

Except that corporations arent people, a business does not have the rights of a human or in general of any living entity for that matter, corporate property is not personal property just as a person representing a business is not legally representing themselves as a human but the business and most of all NO, the wish of a corporation to make money is drastically less important than any individuals inalienable rights.

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5 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Nope, they have their own right to self censorship, they however dont have the right to violate the human right to freedom of expression.

Nor are they being violated. Your right to express yourself does not mean your right to express yourself in someone else's newspaper (the newspaper is free to not publish an article you write, if they so choose), in someone else's home or business (if I don't like how you express yourself in my house, I am free to kick you out the door) or in someone else's forum or game-chat. Freedom of expression just means you get to express yourself without fear of being arrested or persecuted by your government. That's it. That's all it means.

8 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Except that corporations arent people, a business does not have the rights of a human or in general of any living entity for that matter

Yes they do. In any so-called "free" country, corporations very much have rights. If they didn't, they wouldn't be allowed to make contracts, sue, be sued, etc. You couldn't fine them, they wouldn't have to pay taxes. And so on. It's called Corporate Personhood and means that corporations have - to a limited extent - the same legal rights as a human being, and that those rights exists separate from the individual people that comprise the corporation.

14 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

the wish of a corporation to make money is drastically less important than any individuals inalienable rights.

Again, nor is that the case. You have no inalienable right to say what you want on Facebook or Twitter. Or in a restaurant where you are dining. Or in my house. Or rather, you can say what you want, but not without consequences. One such consequence may be that you get thrown out of the restaurant. Or banned from a forum or game. As long as you aren't being arrested or charged with a crime, your inalienable rights aren't being violated.

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il y a 23 minutes, xXDeadsinxX a dit :

Anyone else seeing their posts get deleted by any chance or just me? My most recent post on this forum thread was deleted without any notice. Just genuinely curious as to why it was deleted in the first place.

Your post was deleted because it was an answer to a post that got deleted for breaking a community rule. It's classic cleaning procedure : if we remove a post we also have to remove anything related to it, else it wouldn't make any sense.

In the future if your posts gets deleted and you want an explanation, PM a moderator directly.

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2 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Nor are they being violated. Your right to express yourself does not mean your right to express yourself in someone else's newspaper (the newspaper is free to not publish an article you write, if they so choose), in someone else's home or business (if I don't like how you express yourself in my house, I am free to kick you out the door) or in someone else's forum or game-chat. Freedom of expression just means you get to express yourself without fear of being arrested or persecuted by your government. That's it. That's all it means.

Actually, unless they dont offer the service, paying for a add means they have to publish what you wrote there. Just as a video game is actually breaking the law if they censor you instead of letting people choose to self censor their access to content (unluckily for consumers and luckily for companies, no country cares much if at all about the vidya industry)

2 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Yes they do. In any so-called "free" country, corporations very much have rights. If they didn't, they wouldn't be allowed to make contracts, sue, be sued, etc. You couldn't fine them, they wouldn't have to pay taxes. And so on. It's called Corporate Personhood and means that corporations have - to a limited extent - the same legal rights as a human being, and that those rights exists separate from the individual people that comprise the corporation.

No, you confuse the rights of a legal entity (and additional that of a entity trade protections) with a living individual, in no county does a corporate entity have the civil and political rights. For example a corporation does not and will never have the right to privacy, just as a human representing him or herself as a human instead of a company doesnt and wont ever have trade secrets protections under the law.

2 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Again, nor is that the case. You have no inalienable right to say what you want on Facebook or Twitter. Or in a restaurant where you are dining. Or in my house. Or rather, you can say what you want, but not without consequences. One such consequence may be that you get thrown out of the restaurant. Or banned from a forum or game. As long as you aren't being arrested or charged with a crime, your inalienable rights aren't being violated.

I do, in fact i have it everywhere, only difference is if i do it on personal property i could possibly get kicked off. However no restaurant or game or anything else that isnt a individuals personal property that is not acting in any other way can kick me or anyone out unless they can prove harm to other customers (not employees or random people outside, only other customers because it would otherwise impede their right to goods and services being fit for use) without that place breaking the law.

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