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Chat Moderation Changes and Additions Report!

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15 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Actually, unless they dont offer the service, paying for a add means they have to publish what you wrote there. Just as a video game is actually breaking the law if they censor you instead of letting people choose to self censor their access to content (unluckily for consumers and luckily for companies, no country cares much if at all about the vidya industry)

Not at all true. Video games, online forums, etc, are free to censor whatever they like. In most countries they aren't allowed to discriminate, but that is a different law and has nothing to do with censorship. Just as a tv-station is free to bleep out words they find offensive, so to video games are free to censor, restrict and ban words, phrases and behaviors the developers has deemed inappropriate. No law at all is being broken here. If you think a law is being broken you should report it to your authorities. I assure you, though, that they will tell you this is not the case.

20 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

No, you confuse the rights of a legal entity (and additional that of a entity trade protections) with a living individual, in no county does a corporate entity have the civil and political rights. For example a corporation does not and will never have the right to privacy, just as a human representing him or herself as a human instead of a company doesnt and wont ever have trade secrets protections under the law.

Corporations do have right to privacy for sure. You can't just barge unto their property. The government and lawyers needs subpoenas to investigate them, same as with people. Corporations are required by law to share certain data, but for the most part those are the same as a normal individual are required to share (like tax records).

29 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

I do, in fact i have it everywhere, only difference is if i do it on personal property i could possibly get kicked off. However no restaurant or game or anything else that isnt a individuals personal property that is not acting in any other way can kick me or anyone out unless they can prove harm to other customers (not employees or random people outside, only other customers because it would otherwise impede their right to goods and services being fit for use) without that place breaking the law.

Also not true at all. Every casino in the world has dress codes. They are free to kick you out if you wear clothes they haven't approved of. This doesn't harm other customers, but it is in fact perfectly legal. Again, they are not allowed to discriminate, so the rules has to apply evenly across the board. So you can say "you can't wear a t-shirt in here" or "you aren't allowed to say so-and-so" on our forums. That is perfectly legal. You can not however say "women aren't allowed to wear t-shirts" or "people of [insert ethnic group here] aren't allowed to say so-and-so".

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8 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Not at all true. Video games, online forums, etc, are free to censor whatever they like. In most countries they aren't allowed to discriminate, but that is a different law and has nothing to do with censorship. Just as a tv-station is free to bleep out words they find offensive, so to video games are free to censor, restrict and ban words, phrases and behaviors the developers has deemed inappropriate. No law at all is being broken here. If you think a law is being broken you should report it to your authorities. I assure you, though, that they will tell you this is not the case.

Corporations do have right to privacy for sure. You can't just barge unto their property. The government and lawyers needs subpoenas to investigate them, same as with people. Corporations are required by law to share certain data, but for the most part those are the same as a normal individual are required to share (like tax records).

Also not true at all. Every casino in the world has dress codes. They are free to kick you out if you wear clothes they haven't approved of. This doesn't harm other customers, but it is in fact perfectly legal. Again, they are not allowed to discriminate, so the rules has to apply evenly across the board. So you can say "you can't wear a t-shirt in here" or "you aren't allowed to say so-and-so" on our forums. That is perfectly legal. You can not however say "women aren't allowed to wear t-shirts" or "people of [insert ethnic group here] aren't allowed to say so-and-so".

Nope, feel free to give up all your rights to corporations, but do not act as if its fact instead of just your own weird lack of pride and self preservation. Also yes you can just walk into any corporate property, if you couldnt the entire 3rd and 4th sector of industry wouldnt exist, hell even the first sector would probably die to a crumble if marketplaces were the only way to sell goods. What you cant just walk into are things like industrial sites which do not qualify (as long as they arent also serving a commercial function) or areas which would thereby harm other customers (like a man who just worked on the sewage system or anyone who cant be confirmed to be clean walking into a kitchen). P.S. A dress code can be illegal, in fact a lot of them tend to be (completely ignoring the whole discrimination part), but because they do no real harm/if anything the people that break dress codes in the case of your example tend to be offering services which help bring more customers into a casino, usually noone prosecutes.

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13 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Nope, feel free to give up all your rights to corporations, but do not act as if its fact instead of just your own weird lack of pride and self preservation.

I am acting like it's facts because it is fact. If you believe otherwise, feel free to disprove me by showing me where in laws of what country it states that a media outlet does not have the right to censor their own media as long as they aren't discriminating. I'm not holding my breath, though.

 

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5 hours ago, peterc3 said:

This is a joke and would never happen.

They aren't obligated to partner with him. This is so completely bizarre.

This is exactly why we have feminism. You.

Keep your head buried in the sand.

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Confused as to why my pretty well written post was deleted, but these barely related spam threads about business rights are cool. Good to see comments about moderation are simply being hid by the moderators.

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On 2019-02-25 at 8:17 PM, Letter13 said:

Well, if they have concrete evidence of current chat moderators acting contrary to the Chat & Moderation Code of Conduct, they should contact DE staff ASAP. Going onto message boards and other sites to complain about how they've 'been wronged' by a moderator doesn't help to solve the issue.

Sorry, but this response just feels extremely hollow given the entire context of the issue and the facts presented in the Rahetalius video. That's the whole point of his video and the discussion that followed. That these chat moderators have been repeatedly reported for YEARS, with plenty of evidence of their misconducts provided, and up until that video was released, or at least shortly before that, they were still around and friends with DE's community staff. Not to mention other community related issues like partners being extremely toxic to the community, favoritism in the WF partner program, etc. 

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@brenblaze your comment was removed because it was essentially a summary of the video that started the discussion. If a comment does't provide any new insight to the discussion it is considered non-constructive. 

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@[DE]Marcus OK, just making sure you understand this is how some of the player base feels. I felt it was different than both videos, but thats up to you. I'm done with this, you guys clearly have your mind set.  

Edited by BrenBlaze
Changing the direction
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Well if this thread, Rath's video and the Twitter responses show us anything, it is that DE needs to actually be transparent and stop sweeping the issue under the carpet. The problem needs to be acknowledged and steps need to be taken. The moderation of chat and the guides of the lotus are a huge blunder and need a serious overhaul. I miss the time when the only censored word in the game was the racist one and people just clicked on the ignore button when they got offended. I understand we people's rights to be offended and the want to lash out and report and censor biggots, but now we have mods making up rules as they please and playing out their politics in chat.

I personally much rather have someone call me an f-word and putting that person on my ignore list myself than having to deal with a one-month chat ban for mentioning a meme. And DE keeps on ignoring the problem, which has come up over and over again.

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This conversation is ridiculous, just endless circular arguments. Please DE address the actual issues in a clear and concise manner so we can go back to talking about something more interesting.

 

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1 minute ago, ReaverKane said:

This is RATED M, 17+ Age Rating... A supposedly adult audience shouldn't require such coddling.

The actual contents in the game is rated M. Online interaction is not rated by the ESRB. If you're familiar with the gaming world, you'll know that the M rating doesn't keep younger audiences out. 

And why do you think preventing slurs from being in chat is considered coddling? If we'd just all be decent people and not use slang words we wouldn't have to worry. But sadly that's the way it is apparently.

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I'm just surprised this is still going. Yes I get it chat moderation is a thing. But the fact we can't get over people saying bad words to each other is just odd.

We as a community need to calm down and move on. Constantly poking the dead horse will not make it move. 

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4 minutes ago, Rhundis said:

I'm just surprised this is still going. Yes I get it chat moderation is a thing. But the fact we can't get over people saying bad words to each other is just odd.

We as a community need to calm down and move on. Constantly poking the dead horse will not make it move. 

If that's all you think it is about then you are sorely missing the point.

 

Numerous words are bannable regardless of context; many words that are only seldom used in a hateful manner.

And as for why this is still going on and people aren't just "moving on" over all the chat moderation issues is because nothing has been addressed.

DE still won't even discuss what's going on and instead only give reports that are missing a lot of context (that still have very little to do with the entire issue).

 

Only employee even posting in this topic, @[DE]Marcus, is just basically acting in the form of a "moderator", still not actually responding to any of the questions / concerns of what has been raised by numerous people.

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6 minutes ago, Rhundis said:

But the fact we can't get over people saying bad words to each other is just odd.

What I find odd is that people seem utterly incapable of being civil and decent human beings to one another on the internet and not let the anonymity give them the sense that they are entitled to utter whatever filth comes to mind "for the lulz".

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14 hours ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

Related image

also nezha is clearly wearing pants in warframe 

PS: nezha is a dude 

I get what you're saying, but at the same time, how we perceive the warframes are largely subjective - which is how we get varying takes on what they look like.

All I'm trying to do is explain how the Nezha meme got started, however right/wrong/indifferent that may be.

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il y a 1 minute, (PS4)abbacephas a dit :

What I find odd is that people seem utterly incapable of being civil and decent human beings to one another on the internet and not let the anonymity give them the sense that they are entitled to utter whatever filth comes to mind "for the lulz".

Welcome to the internet.

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4 minutes ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

The actual contents in the game is rated M. Online interaction is not rated by the ESRB. If you're familiar with the gaming world, you'll know that the M rating doesn't keep younger audiences out. 

And why do you think preventing slurs from being in chat is considered coddling? If we'd just all be decent people and not use slang words we wouldn't have to worry. But sadly that's the way it is apparently.

Indeed i know, but if they're grown up enough to watch someone be cut in half, then they should be grown up enough to not be "corrupted" by reading "Nezha is a trap"... Which although being an obnoxious topic, because then you have those kids repeating it ad nauseam. I don't see where it should "offend" someone.

The problem here isn't the kids, it's the young adults that were taught their whole life that words can hurt. Heck, i wish that the kids that bullied me when i was a kid would have stopped at calling me fat, and other derivatives. Because i've never had any issues with being fat, a nerd, or whatever else they called me. It was when i was getting beat by 5 other "kids", some old enough to drink in the US, yep that old in 9th grade. That was when i started hurting, because yeah, it hurt...

What slurs? Because someone obviously joking, or being obnoxious, or baiting people into misbehaving is considered a bannable offense... And yet, is it slurs? Is it so egregious that people should get banned or muted or whatever? Especially in a game where being able to use trade chat is the ONLY way to get some stuff?

Because, double standards are a thing, the "N-word" is used among people of African descent all the time, yet it's supposed to be derogatory to them... Heck, where i live it was a synonym for "cool" in the hip-hop community for a while. But just it's utterance is enough to label someone as a racist. It's just pure radicalism to punish a word without context.

And there's another thing, BANNING isn't the only moderation tool available, how about, issuing warnings? Because that report? NO WARNINGS.

I'm not against moderation, it's great and needed, but that's when done well, and it hasn't been, not according to the reports Reb posted. I mean it says repeat offender a lot, did the person KNOW he was a repeat offender? Because that's not clear.

I won't even go into the issue of how egregious and apparently corrupt moderator choices have been in the past, because the only info i have is that train-headed guy on youtube.

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2 minutes ago, D20 said:

Welcome to the internet.

Indeed. Which is why the use of chat is a privilege, not a right. If people cannot be civil and decent, they unequivocally should have that privilege rescinded until such time as they learn to be such. 

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2 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

The problem here isn't the kids, it's the young adults that were taught their whole life that words can hurt.

 

2 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

because the only info i have is that train-headed guy on youtube.

Says words shouldn't hurt, proceeds to use words to insult.

Maybe the problem isn't we have taught words can hurt, but that we haven't taught about being kind to one another.

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Just now, (XB1)Shodian said:

 

Says words shouldn't hurt, proceeds to use words to insult.

Maybe the problem isn't we have taught words can hurt, but that we haven't taught about being kind to one another.

Who did i insult?

If you're talking about the "train-head", the guy on youtube's logo is litterally a redrawing of vauban prime's helmet to make him look even more like a train, he has a complicated name, and i'm terrible with names (even simple ones), anyone that is familiar with the issue, KNOWS who i'm talking about.
If you're talking about what i said about young adults, that's just a statement of fact, if you're insulted by that you're just proving it.
Either way, you're just proving my point completely, either being offended by fact, or in behalf of someone who definitely won't be. So thanks?

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7 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

Who did i insult?

If you're talking about the "train-head", the guy on youtube's logo is litterally a redrawing of vauban prime's helmet to make him look even more like a train, he has a complicated name, and i'm terrible with names (even simple ones), anyone that is familiar with the issue, KNOWS who i'm talking about.
If you're talking about what i said about young adults, that's just a statement of fact, if you're insulted by that you're just proving it.
Either way, you're just proving my point completely, either being offended by fact, or in behalf of someone who definitely won't be. So thanks?

I'm not insulted, next time in the future though I think you should take the time to look up people's names. Because that sounded like an insult. Either way, we all have different opinions, I have never gotten offended but I respect those that might. It doesn't hurt to be good to people. If there's a term that offends people let's be kind and not use it. 

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18 minutes ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

The actual contents in the game is rated M. Online interaction is not rated by the ESRB. If you're familiar with the gaming world, you'll know that the M rating doesn't keep younger audiences out. 

Then that's really a failure of parenting IMO.  It's like taking kids to an R rated movie.

That said, I would prefer the chat moderators to be a little more relaxed in their approach rather than having the current (for lack of a better way of putting this) SJW bent that they have.  While I'd like to separate politics from this, this is very much a case where (from my perspective) certain undesirable politics have already gotten a foothold and are being forced upon the player-base.

Even though I am generally of the mind that political correctness is BS, to be clear, I am not condoning people being rude or hateful towards each other.  I would prefer that we have enough latitude to be able to say what we need, and when absolutely necessary, the mods will step in.  Right now it feels like the moderators are basically overeager cops awaiting someone to look at them funny and hammer them into submission.

9 minutes ago, Sean said:

Only employee even posting in this topic, @[DE]Marcus, is just basically acting in the form of a "moderator", still not actually responding to any of the questions / concerns of what has been raised by numerous people.

I agree, having someone like Rebecca, Steve, or Mega jump into the fray and start explaining reasoning behind their behavior would miles towards helping to get us through this, and mending this rift.  DE really needs to stay as tight with the playerbase as YoshiP is with the FFXIV playerbase (see the following video for the FFXIV relaunch issues apology you've got to turn on subtitles for that, though).  As shown with Warframe and FFXIV, when the senior leadership puts the players first and foremost, and keeps them there, then both games will see huge success.  We don't want to be adversarial towards DE, but DE needs to have enough strength to know when they've screwed up and admit it.  You're human too, stop acting like you're perfect.

 

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This conversation has been going on for a while now, and everyone is kinda going in circles, arguing with each other in quite a too passionate way. Let's try to level up the conversation a bit : instead of fueling up that drama, we should be talking about actual ways to improve moderation and making sure that incidents who are currently complained at never happen again in the future.

Recruitment procedures for voluntary mods could use to be more strict for example, and perhaps communication between moderators and users can be improved in some way. You guys probably have some ideas about that. I'm just a voluntary moderator, but I wouldn't mind at all reading some well thought out suggestions.

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Just now, D20 said:

This conversation has been going on for a while now, and everyone is kinda going in circles, arguing with each other in quite a too passionate way. Let's try to level up the conversation a bit : instead of fueling up that drama, we should be talking about actual ways to improve moderation and making sure that incidents like the ones described in the video never happen again.

 

Unfortunately a lot has been said and the only way to truly move forward is to have DE Staff start responding.

The community will only keep going at each other's throats until things can be focused on some employee (which I know can be stressful for that individual) to start actually responding to questions, feedback, concerns, etc.

 

Otherwise, nothing will happen in a positive way and the same conversations will just repeat ad nauseam.

 

Quote

Recruitment procedures for voluntary mods could use to be more strict for example, and perhaps communication between moderators and users can be improved in some way. You guys probably have some ideas about that.

On that, part of what is frustrating is that while the "new" code of conduct (which is really just basic decency) acts as a checklist for some of the chat moderators, what only adds further insult to injury is this line:

Quote

There is no application to become a Chat Moderator. Digital Extremes staff carefully select each Chat Moderator from the Warframe player community. We look for a history of positive contributions to the community and a spotless Warframe account history.

That, combined with what has been easily proven with evidence, then doesn't sit well as the toxic chatmods have nowhere near a "spotless" history.

 

Quote

I'm just a voluntary moderator, but I wouldn't mind at all reading some well thought out suggestions.

Much appreciated on doing what you can, and a lot of what I've seen between you and @Letter13 have been very positive as a whole. 😄

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