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Chat Moderation Changes and Additions Report!

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2 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

That's also enforcing a set of values upon the playerbase that have a solid argument against them.

DE are allowed to enforce whatever values they wish within the confines of their game.

 

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58 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

DE are allowed to enforce whatever values they wish within the confines of their game.

And DE shouldn't be surprised when the community is outraged for having an agenda shoved on them that they do not agree with.

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4 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

And DE shouldn't be surprised when the community is outraged for having an agenda shoved on them that they do not agree with.

They probably aren't. Doesn't matter though. You play their game, you abide by their regulations. If you don't like it, you (and anyone) can see themselves out.

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24 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

They probably aren't. Doesn't matter though. You play their game, you abide by their regulations. If you don't like it, you (and anyone) can see themselves out.

...which shows intolerance on DE's part...

Aren't we supposed to be an open and inclusive community?

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21 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

They probably aren't. Doesn't matter though. You play their game, you abide by their regulations. If you don't like it, you (and anyone) can see themselves out.

Or, alternatively, you can have a discussion about it on the discussion forum during a time where changes are being announced, proposed and considered.

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Just now, Almagnus1 said:

...which shows intolerance on DE's part...

Aren't we supposed to be an open and inclusive community?

LOL

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2 minutes ago, Chasue said:

Or, alternatively, you can have a discussion about it on the discussion forum during a time where changes are being announced, proposed and considered.

Discussions around what, exactly? Letting people say whatever they want, whenever they want, because of "context"?

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Just now, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Discussions around what, exactly? Letting people say whatever they want, whenever they want, because of "context"?

Read the thread and leave the hyperbole at the door. Among the fudging of toxicity you are -- justifiably -- pointing out are some valid reasons for change.

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1 minute ago, Chasue said:

Read the thread and leave the hyperbole at the door. Among the fudging of toxicity you are -- justifiably -- pointing out are some valid reasons for change.

I'm intimately familiar with the content of this thread. Thanks.

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On 2019-03-04 at 6:44 AM, Almagnus1 said:

For science, I wanted to test if a perfectly valid question would get you chat banned by the chatbot:

JTuPtR6.png

Yep, still broken.

Case in point.

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26 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

LOL

So you're agreeing that DE should support hate and bigotry?

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1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

So you're agreeing that DE should support hate and bigotry?

10/10 Virtue Signalling.

GG

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5 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

So you're agreeing that DE should support hate and bigotry?

So you're agreeing that DE should insta-ban people from game (not chat) as soon as they say the bad word?

Maybe if that happens, when playerbase reached critically low, we stop virtue signaling and start thinking of real solutions!

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11 minutes ago, Jitsuryoku said:

So you're agreeing that DE should insta-ban people from game (not chat) as soon as they say the bad word?

What does getting banned from the game have to do with chat moderation?

Quote

Maybe if that happens, when playerbase reached critically low, we stop virtue signaling and start thinking of real solutions!

So something like this?

On 2019-03-14 at 6:13 PM, Almagnus1 said:

You know what would really help with this entire situation?

Anonymize the chat, so there's context, then highlight the offensive phrase and let the user base decide if what was said is ban worthy or not - and give the system an opt out and put it in the inbox (well, part of it), so that way the dev team can better understand what the player base understands to be as offensive, which is likely at odds to how the existing systems work.

By sampling (say) a thousand players from the same chat channel (or more), it allows DE to better understand their playerbase as part of this disconnect with the chat moderation are some elements at DE going "this is offensive" when the playerbase may see it as little more than a crude joke.

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3 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

What does getting banned from the game have to do with chat moderation?

So something like this?

Yes, just more realistic. What you're suggesting requires a whole new system and presumably staff. On top of it all it assumes player participation, representation and most importantly honesty in answrs. I'm not sure if you've heard about these studies, but essentially a common side effect tests (or in this case votes) with humans is that they tend to want to asnwer in a way they think they are expected to asnwer, when they know results will be observed by an authority figure. That essentially means, that they might might answer dishonestly, to "please" whoever is watching those results. There's a good chance that they will be virtue signaling with their answers, even if on their own they wouldn't considering a particular message noteworthy.

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Just now, Jitsuryoku said:

Yes, just more realistic. What you're suggesting requires a whole new system and presumably staff. On top of it all it assumes player participation, representation and most importantly honesty in answrs. I'm not sure if you've heard about these studies, but essentially a common side effect tests (or in this case votes) with humans is that they tend to want to asnwer in a way they think they are expected to asnwer, when they know results will be observed by an authority figure. That essentially means, that they might might answer dishonestly, to "please" whoever is watching those results. There's a good chance that they will be virtue signaling with their answers, even if on their own they wouldn't considering a particular message noteworthy.

More like an annonymized jury system that leverages the playerbase and keeps stuff discrete and secret so that DE never takes any punitive action on how players voted, and run the entire thing via automated system so that you distance the players from the moderators (assuming you really need them to begin with because you can use machine learning to create an automated mod that's sane).  You would never see any of this in anything more public than your messages in the chat unless someone's screen capped it - which DE can easily solve that problem by making it so that if someone shares any screencaps of the system they get banned.

If you have no one to virtue signal too, and you have no punitive action for voting (or if it's incentivized by giving you resources per vote) you can create a system that will be far more impartial than what we've seen historically with the chat mods.

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2 hours ago, Sean said:

Just a heads up, "trap" is a slur to some not all within that same or similar communities.

Varying on the person and their background/history, people can see it to be a positive (even when describing themselves).

The fact that it can be insta-bannable regardless of context only tries to turn it into a 100% negative since that is what people will begin to think of it as.

First, that word is a slur in the trans community, full stop.  Its origin is as a slur and it continues to be used as a slur by those outside the community.  And even if there were some theoretical trans person who didn't see it as a slur (which is improbable at best), that wouldn't change the reality that it's being used as a slur and the overwhelming majority of the trans community experiences it as a slur.  It is already 100% negative, so there's no ground to lose.

If you're worried about people get banned for just saying something like, "I'm going to go trap a Pobber", that's a legitimate worry.  But if they're using the slur version of the word, there's not much to be worried about.  Ignorance isn't a shield.  Just don't say slurs.  Don't know if something's a slur?  Look it up before saying it; this is not a big ask.

And in this case, you don't have to worry about ignorance, this reply from the player who said the slur suggests that they knew exactly what they were saying:

16 minutes ago, Jitsuryoku said:

So you're agreeing that DE should insta-ban people from game (not chat) as soon as they say the bad word?

Maybe if that happens, when playerbase reached critically low, we stop virtue signaling and start thinking of real solutions!

(For those playing at home, could you find the dog whistle?)  So it's not that they didn't know, it's that they didn't agree and wanted to say it anyway, and then they got upset when they had to face the repercussions of their actions.

And really, worrying about whether people are banned when they say a slur is focusing on the lesser part of the issue.  Slurs are a bannable offense because they're harmful to trans people.  That's where our primary concern goes, and it's rightfully where DE's concern goes.  Perhaps it's simply an unfortunate oversight, but it seems telling that your post doesn't make any mention of concern or care for the overwhelming majority of trans people negatively affected by the use of slurs.

Anyway, if the folks in this thread want to mimic "Old Man Yells at Cloud" and try to debate DE into believing up is down, I suppose that's your time to spend and your life to lead.  But everyone sees through this, especially DE's moderators who are literally paid to be smarter than to fall for that kind of bad-faith trolling.  Some people in this thread are complaining about how DE doesn't reply, and maybe somewhere in this thread there are some good things worth replying to.  But when it comes to this kind of stuff, it all boils down to: I want to say a slur, and I'm upset that there will be consequences if I do.  And that's not worthy of a reply from people who actually have valuable work to do.

Ciao! ❤️

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

First, that word is a slur in the trans community, full stop.  Its origin is as a slur and it continues to be used as a slur by those outside the community.  And even if there were some theoretical trans person who didn't see it as a slur (which is improbable at best), that wouldn't change the reality that it's being used as a slur and the overwhelming majority of the trans community experiences it as a slur.  It is already 100% negative, so there's no ground to lose.

It actually isn't.

Please look into the word and leave your echo chamber.

 

There's even people within this topic that are you "theoretical" people (which is pretty damn insulting to them that you choose to pretend they don't exist). Just because YOU and the people around you find it insulting will NEVER mean that it applies to everyone.

 

 

Quote

If you're worried about people get banned for just saying something like, "I'm going to go trap a Pobber", that's a legitimate worry.  But if they're using the slur version of the word, there's not much to be worried about.  Ignorance isn't a shield.  Just don't say slurs.  Don't know if something's a slur?  Look it up before saying it; this is not a big ask.

And in this case, you don't have to worry about ignorance, this reply from the player who said the slur suggests that they knew exactly what they were saying:

(For those playing at home, could you find the dog whistle?)  So it's not that they didn't know, it's that they didn't agree and wanted to say it anyway, and then they got upset when they had to face the repercussions of their actions.

 

Most people see it for what it really is, a meme.

A meme is a reproduced joke (while dumb) and "nezha is a trap" has less to do about "nezha" (though DE does keep showing Nezha in a more "feminine" manner when it comes to the streams) and more on how it's basically an in-warframe meme at this point.

 

 

Quote

And really, worrying about whether people are banned when they say a slur is focusing on the lesser part of the issue.  Slurs are a bannable offense because they're harmful to trans people.  That's where our primary concern goes, and it's rightfully where DE's concern goes.  Perhaps it's simply an unfortunate oversight, but it seems telling that your post doesn't make any mention of concern or care for the overwhelming majority of trans people negatively affected by the use of slurs.

 

I've spoken at length on how there should be better tools available, and for the sake of simplicity I will retype it after the quotes.

 

Quote

Anyway, if the folks in this thread want to mimic "Old Man Yells at Cloud" and try to debate DE into believing up is down, I suppose that's your time to spend and your life to lead.  But everyone sees through this, especially DE's moderators who are literally paid to be smarter than to fall for that kind of bad-faith trolling.  Some people in this thread are complaining about how DE doesn't reply, and maybe somewhere in this thread there are some good things worth replying to.  But when it comes to this kind of stuff, it all boils down to: I want to say a slur, and I'm upset that there will be consequences if I do.  And that's not worthy of a reply from people who actually have valuable work to do.

Ciao! ❤️

*sigh*

That isn't at all what the majority of this topic is, and you can claim that as much as you want, but the facts run counter to your statement.

 

 

Now as for the better tools:

 

Localized blocklists for words and phrases

  • Players can create a personal filter within the settings menu (not within a chat tab)
    • This filter would also apply to ALL chats (though suppose this would probably be best as an option as well)
  • Players would be given an option to have any word or phrase that triggers their blacklist to either be replaced as a [*] (regardless of length) or delete the full line
  • Players could be given the option that if anyone triggers their personal blocklist, it will auto-ignore that individual
    • Players could go through their ignored list and see what was said and so they could choose to remove the person from their "ignored" list or keep them there
  • This type of system can have a parental lock so it would require a password
    • Anyone without the password would be unable to alter these settings if "Parental Controls" are enabled
  • Chat moderators can fill in where needed to ban those that are hateful and break the various rules and people can still be reported after all

 

It is best to give people the tools to properly defend themselves, not assume what they think and ultimately overreach.

Edited by Sean
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28 minutes ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

And really, worrying about whether people are banned when they say a slur is focusing on the lesser part of the issue.  Slurs are a bannable offense because they're harmful to trans people.  That's where our primary concern goes, and it's rightfully where DE's concern goes.  Perhaps it's simply an unfortunate oversight, but it seems telling that your post doesn't make any mention of concern or care for the overwhelming majority of trans people negatively affected by the use of slurs.

People being banned is the "lesser part of the issue"? Did you know that this game needs people to stay afloat?
I'm sure transpeople would be thrilled to find out that their favorite game died, defending their honor.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Sean said:

There's even people within this topic that are you "theoretical" people (which is pretty damn insulting to them that you choose to pretend they don't exist). Just because YOU and the people around you find it insulting will NEVER mean that it applies to everyone.

i see you've successfully ignored the key contextual points of "it's being used as a slur" and "the overwhelming majority of the trans community experiences it as a slur." Both of which are true. Most people don't live on the Internet eating memes for sustenance.

 

19 minutes ago, Sean said:

Now as for the better tools:

While useful, this isn't relevant to the way DE wants to moderate their chat spaces nor would providing better tools be mutually exclusive from also having global chat filters.

 

12 minutes ago, Jitsuryoku said:

People being banned is the "lesser part of the issue"? Did you know that this game needs people to stay afloat?
I'm sure transpeople would be thrilled to find out that their favorite game died, defending their honor.

Good thing video games don't depend on the success of trolls and bigots cheaply disguised as free speech absolutists so personally I'm actually not at all worried about that 🙂

Edited by Gwyndolin-chan
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Just now, Gwyndolin-chan said:

i see you've successfully ignored the key contextual points of "it's being used as a slur" and "the overwhelming majority of the trans community experiences it as a slur." Both of which are true. Most people don't live on the Internet eating memes for sustenance.

Anything can literally be used as slur. The facts are that there are people out there that find "trap" to be complementary to both others and themselves.

Banning over the word "trap" is moronic when you remove context.

 

Should those that are actually using it as an insult be banned? Yes. Of course.

BUT it requires context and something like that should not be on the whims of a bot.

 

Just now, Gwyndolin-chan said:

 

While useful, this isn't relevant to the way DE wants to moderate their chat spaces nor would providing better tools be mutually exclusive from also having global chat filters.

It was relevant to that discussion.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Sean said:

Anything can literally be used as slur. The facts are that there are people out there that find "trap" to be complementary to both others and themselves.

i applaud you for your continued streak in ignoring the key points of "it's being used as a slur" (and the implication that many people do use it as a slur) and "the overwhelming majority of the trans community experiences it as a slur." it's truly impressive

 

6 minutes ago, Sean said:

BUT it requires context and something like that should not be on the whims of a bot.

It already has context: Region chat is where the bot functions and it also happens to be where the bot baiters and trolls are. Seems appropriate to me to automate taking out the trash where the trash resides.

Edited by Gwyndolin-chan
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2 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

i applaud you for your continued streak in ignoring the key points of "it's being used as a slur" (and the implication that many people do use it as a slur) and "the overwhelming majority of the trans community experiences it as a slur." it's truly impressive

As I have stated, while it can be used as a slur, it varies on how it is used and on a person's background and history.

You can repeatedly try to be in denial on that, but it does not change that fact.

 

There are numerous words and phrases that are allowable within Warframe despite also being a "slur" or "insulting" to some groups of people, but they are allowed due to them also having other meanings. You keep saying "overwhelming majority", but even that is not true.

It will vary one what area on the internet you are looking at as there will be those that "echo" the same sentiment, there are also those where the reverse is true.

 

The facts are that it is a word that requires nuance and context to be handled properly, blanket-banning only assumes the worst and does not help anyone. It is this overreach that created the meme of "nezha is a trap" at all. If it was left, it would have blown over ages ago, instead a mountain was made out of a molehill.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

 

It already has context: Region chat is where the bot functions and it also happens to be where the bot baiters and trolls are. Seems appropriate to me to automate taking out the trash where the trash resides.

 

Context is not something a bot can know and you seem to be ignoring what "context" even means.

 

You can continue your denial of groups of people and your unwillingness to grasp that that are more sides to this, but I am done with our little back-and-forth. If you want to have the "last word" feel free, but I feel this is enough as it only continues to knock this topic off course.

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Posted (edited)

Wow, this thread had another burst of activity.

I'm a little disappointed that things have gotten as heated as they have, since I don't think any of us make our best cases when we're on tilt. That said, it's totally understandable because this is one of those topics that's deeply personal and does seem to demand passion.

One thing I'd probably recommend against is the in-line posting of video links in this thread. It's distracting and I'd rather see someone synthesize their own statements, as opposed to leaning on someone else's. If you have to post the video, odds are you don't yet fully understand the ideas you're trying to convey. That's not meant to be a slam, because of course it's difficult to break something down and put your own personal stamp on it. However, I think we really need to focus on doing just that if we want to keep this thread from becoming excessively polarized and "tribal."

The last thing we want, especially those of us who feel DE is perhaps being too opaque on this topic, is for DE to feel further justified in distancing themselves from this conversation. No argument can win if it isn't heard in the first place.

On the topic of videos, I've seen two posted here that I don't believe do a particularly good job of handling the subject matter. There's a fair amount of cherry picking, misrepresentation, omission and begging the question (I'm specifically referring to Contra on this, she has a habit of affirming the consequent and completely dodged an entire side of the issue that was later addressed by SMonroe).

Let's remember to avoid polarizing language as much as possible. Not gonna name names there, you know who you are.

 

Edited by notlamprey
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

Good thing video games don't depend on the success of trolls and bigots cheaply disguised as free speech absolutists so personally I'm actually not at all worried about that 🙂

Cash of trolls and bigots cost just as much in bank and I would argue that losing them (even if just losing the actual trolls) the company would take a financial hit.  Also, don't automatically brand anyone getting banned as troll or bigot. I'm not sure if you noticed, but the automatic bans are sort of broken. When you're claiming somebody, who was just banned for reasons they don't understand is a troll or a bigot, You're just creating more hate towards your cause.

4 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

i applaud you for your continued streak in ignoring the key points of "it's being used as a slur" (and the implication that many people do use it as a slur) and "the overwhelming majority of the trans community experiences it as a slur." it's truly impressive

This portion is actually really curious to me. There's an objective neutral definition for the word "trap", there's a whole fetish around it so clearly it has to have positive tones to it. That's why claims that using that word to describe an object (not against a person) seem baseless. I am willing to read your sources for the claims you are making. There are so many people claiming that it's a bad word and so far the only "source" I've seen is a Youtuber talking about it (again not a single source is 30min + video, just anecdotal evidence). If it's made illegal in a country, if there's study made on that, or even there was a dictionary entry saying it's a slur, it would be easier to take those claims seriously.

Also, by instantly, demonizing anyone who disagrees (and you seem to do that with every message), you're making them less likely to agree with you and further down the line with the points you are trying to make, even if at some point you back them up with data.

Edited by Jitsuryoku
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