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[DE]Rebecca

Chat Moderation Changes and Additions Report!

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7 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Given many folk are either in middle school or thereabouts so don't have the sort of life experiance in the first place, are socially inept (like myself,) or are shutins due to disability or other reasons (also myself,) causing a lack of social graces? That is entirely possible.

Ideas would be welcome on how to address this within the community so folk can learn rather than it feel worse... without enabling the more skeevy sketchy behavior out there.

I don't know if there's a way DE can do that without either coming across as condescending or authoritarian.  Without getting too much into the specifics, some of that needs counseling to work through, and that's DEFINITELY not something DE should touch with a ten foot pole.

That also highlights one of the challenges with chat moderation, and why having certain... elements... don't help things.

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4 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

I don't know if there's a way DE can do that without either coming across as condescending or authoritarian.  Without getting too much into the specifics, some of that needs counseling to work through, and that's DEFINITELY not something DE should touch with a ten foot pole.

That also highlights one of the challenges with chat moderation, and why having certain... elements... don't help things.

Agreed.

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Thanks for the information Rebecca, and thanks for this thread, it's been a good touchstone for further padding of my forum ignore list.

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Promoting friends on the surface seems like a good idea, you know them so therefor they should be pre-vetted right? Problem is you are looking at them as friends more often than not and willing to excuse a heck of a lot or not bother so much with the sort of strict oversight a stranger would get.

I do like that they're keeping us in the loop, even though I feel pretty off put by the examples they put (those clearly are posts that need to go.)

When kickbot kicks someone it should be a message that echoes the line that had the offending trigger statement, or if due to spam. 'you sent (x) 25 times in a row. You have been muzzled because you are spamming.'

This archaic 'we won't let you know the actual rules because then you could abuse them' comes likely from one of the problem mods who is now an ex mod who blew up on twitter and made a tumblr post with tags that read to the effect 'I am going to bait people into breaking the rules without getting into trouble because I know how it all works and I can get away with it there is nothing you can do to stop me.' I'd forwarded the appropriate links to {DE}Bear because that presumably is part of his job as oversight to the mods.

Mods are going to look at this topic super hard because to say this is a hot-button issue in the community puts it lightly and keeping the lighter away from the explosives is something we really want. This is why I am fine with 'resignations' instead of publicly frog marching the offending parties out into the open. If they wish to stay on as normal people and enjoy the game? Awesome. Everyone else should leave them be. If they want to be.... well... If they want to go on little angry twitter rants that get archived thus making a back door re-hire under a diffrent name very problimatic? That is entirely their choice.

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3 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

This archaic 'we won't let you know the actual rules because then you could abuse them' comes likely from one of the problem mods who is now an ex mod who blew up on twitter and made a tumblr post with tags that read to the effect 'I am going to bait people into breaking the rules without getting into trouble because I know how it all works and I can get away with it there is nothing you can do to stop me.' I'd forwarded the appropriate links to {DE}Bear because that presumably is part of his job as oversight to the mods.

The rules had been (and still are) an extension of the Forum's code of conduct, along with portions of the Terms of Use Agreement and EULA (they were however more recently posted in a manner that clarifies them for people who seemed unable to be bothered with reading the forum guidelines, Terms of Use and EULA). The thing we won't post is a blacklist of the words that will trigger kickbot--this is because giving users a template of all the things that trigger kickbot will also give them the template of how to write derogatory slurs, vulgarities and rule-violating comments while evading kickbot.

 

But yes, if you ever see a moderator acting in a way which violates the Chat Moderation Code of Conduct please record the incident and contact [DE]Bear immediately to report the issue. 

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5 hours ago, Letter13 said:

The rules had been (and still are) an extension of the Forum's code of conduct, along with portions of the Terms of Use Agreement and EULA (they were however more recently posted in a manner that clarifies them for people who seemed unable to be bothered with reading the forum guidelines, Terms of Use and EULA). The thing we won't post is a blacklist of the words that will trigger kickbot--this is because giving users a template of all the things that trigger kickbot will also give them the template of how to write derogatory slurs, vulgarities and rule-violating comments while evading kickbot.

 

But yes, if you ever see a moderator acting in a way which violates the Chat Moderation Code of Conduct please record the incident and contact [DE]Bear immediately to report the issue. 

I don't think that's entirely true. One of the biggest issues which you all have not tried to address at all is how people can unintentionally trigger the bot through normal conversation. You have been told many times that your rules are too vague. They are.

People can get banned even when following your Forum code of conduct, and you all have been notified of this repeatedly. To rectify this issue, you could provide specific words/phrases that are otherwise common words/phrases or proper nouns that will trigger the bot, without providing a template of how to write derogatory slurs. Such words include the word trap (which is not widely known as also being used in a derogatory manner) or the name of the country Niger (where Nigeriens live). That does not provide a blueprint or template for breaking the rules. It just provides an example of otherwise common words or phrases that, due to being used in derogatory contexts, will trigger the bot.

You don't have to include any of the various alphanumeric combinations that people have used to try to get around the kickbot; doing that would be giving players a blueprint. But you should make your community aware of the otherwise normal words that will get them banned, specifically because it can get them banned when they're trying to stay within the rules. There are actually people in this community who want to do the right thing, but because of cases where normal communication has resulted in bans (discussion that is oddly not allowed on the forums), people are afraid to use your chat system at all.

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56 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

But yes, if you ever see a moderator acting in a way which violates the Chat Moderation Code of Conduct please record the incident and contact [DE]Bear immediately to report the issue. 

Glad to see the changes are being taken seriously. Here is hoping now that a bit of house cleaning has been done, the people with legitimate issues with hwo business had been conducted can step down and the people with people quoted in the top post? They get removed because.

UGH... Really guys? This community should be far better than that. So her'es hoping 2019 is far FAR better in that regard.

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13 hours ago, Letter13 said:

The rules had been (and still are) an extension of the Forum's code of conduct, along with portions of the Terms of Use Agreement and EULA (they were however more recently posted in a manner that clarifies them for people who seemed unable to be bothered with reading the forum guidelines, Terms of Use and EULA). The thing we won't post is a blacklist of the words that will trigger kickbot--this is because giving users a template of all the things that trigger kickbot will also give them the template of how to write derogatory slurs, vulgarities and rule-violating comments while evading kickbot.

 

But yes, if you ever see a moderator acting in a way which violates the Chat Moderation Code of Conduct please record the incident and contact [DE]Bear immediately to report the issue. 

Can we have a decent discussion about the handling of kickbot with the word "Trap" ? I joined Warframe in 2013 and i have over 1k hours invested on the game, so i like to think i care about it and the community even if this is my first post. Until i got banned from regional chat for implying that Nezha was a trap, let me be honest i never thought or even knew that trap was a derogatory slang, i always had it as neutral or actually referred in a positive way. I had to do research to actually find that "trap" is also used in a bad way. After the ban i looked for most definitions and mostly none had it as "derogatory" not even Wikipedia. If you want it to push it another level i even asked a homosexual friend that is more feminine, and he told me that he takes it as a compliment.

My stand is not to remove kickbot or to remove the word "trap" from the list, but to tone down the punishment, the code of conduct doesn't cover this, not even kickbot warning for chat rules. In my point of view not only i got banned for something i felt it was a positive stance, apparently the bot removes whatever you typed so in the end even if mistaken i didn't hurt anybody but in return i get branded as trans-phobic, not only i cant use regional chat, i cant even communicate with my teammates in missions or even trade. I'm used to communicate with people during missions, thanking revives and saying GG after a good run. I don't want to join Teralyst hunts because i feel like a hindrance without the chat.

Playing warframe a co-op game, without the means to communicate its hell, every post i see over this its always end in users laughing at op and bashing him even more for a mistake, you shouldn't get traumatized by mistakes you should learn from them.

I will apologize to everyone that thinks that "Trap" is a derogatory slang i always looked at it in a good way. But i feel that having a 7 day of banishment into the shadow realm is also a very negative experience, and saying "disable regional chat" feel like saying that the community is not worth the pain.

Edit: I think others should know that my ban was lifted, 24h ban not 7 days, i thought that bans for this kind of accidents where 1 week since most of that post about this where answered with that info, and none of the user banned came back with feedback since they where widely mocked. I still stand that the usage of the word "trap" shouldn't be a bannable but a warning massage saying "that it is also used as a "derogative slang" and you should refrain of using it". The same way people that get offended by it, other that thinks its a compliment getting told that its a slur its also degrading in some manner. Thanks and sorry for the long reply, i'm open to disagreements.
 

Edited by epilef1993
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On 2019-02-01 at 5:33 PM, Almagnus1 said:

O RLY?

Those are the words of someone who thinks that they are surrounded by misogynists.

It says, "because of the way so many of them speak". It doesn't say, "most warframe players are misogynists. Read.

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19 hours ago, epilef1993 said:

Edit: I think others should know that my ban was lifted, 24h ban not 7 days, i thought that bans for this kind of accidents where 1 week since most of that post about this where answered with that info, and none of the user banned came back with feedback since they where widely mocked. I still stand that the usage of the word "trap" shouldn't be a bannable but a warning massage saying "that it is also used as a "derogative slang" and you should refrain of using it". The same way people that get offended by it, other that thinks its a compliment getting told that its a slur its also degrading in some manner. Thanks and sorry for the long reply, i'm open to disagreements.
 

 

If you happened to say it again in any way that the triggers the bot, then it would be longer than 24h, but that also touches on another major issue: The lack of information on the duration of each ban.

As for the rest of your post, I agree on the majority of what you said, but I honestly don't think "trap" should be ban-worthy. It being a "derogatory" term is the minority of even that community. Any word can be considered derogatory with the right context behind it.

We really should just have a system in place that allows players to create their own blacklists that would swap out any word within each blacklist with something like [*] (regardless of length), and by default, the blacklist would contain various words that would be considered "bad" and be on (with a password lock for parents to enable). This way, people who consider words that most of the world finds mundane can get by fine without fear that the kickbot will just ban them and then those that do take issue with whatever word, can then have it not display at all throughout ANY chat (and not just ones where the kickbot is present). Could even have options of how things should be removed, either as a replacement or a full deletion of the line of text that included, and with a custom system, slang and non-English insults can then be removed if the person chooses.

 

 

The kickbot needs improvements, and DE needs to begin being open to discussion on it.

The moderators that caused issues and broke numerous common-sense practices should be removed, at the very least to get DE on the path to restoring trust.

Keeping both the two the same is only going to cause more of the same issues.

 

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2 hours ago, Sean said:

The moderators that caused issues and broke numerous common-sense practices should be removed

At least one has stepped down (Voluntary or otherwise i will leave that for private speculation as the point is they are gone.) Two others are supposedly gone but that may be speculation or misreading information.

So yes let's look at kickbot's behavior. As I understand it Kickbot does send log snippets surrounding a trigger word/phrase. The thing is kickbot should do just that, kick, not handing out auto-bans.

I had suggested earlier using the in game mail system when handing out detailed reports on why a person gets banned, for how long, and more importantly what can be done, and who to contact about appeals processes presumably on a series of increasing levels of difficulty depending on if a person has a first offense, had to have a mod step in (and that mod deeming kickbot's response worth upholding and enforcing.) That way people who might have been falsely flagged? Light annoyance. Repete offenders going on about 'all feminists should die' or 'i like loli porn' etc?  THey get handed a broken shovel and told to start digging.

 

Now then Moving forward. DE themselves via Redtext or via staff accounts have made jokes on sexual self gratification, participated in spam that gets normal players banned, and otherwise have gotten away with behavior normal players would be banned for. THis is all generally 'DE is having a bit of fun at the situation,' however while I am fairly sure whoever uses RedText and those employeesthat show up aren't trying to be anything other than good natured? It is another in those thousand cuts of 'rules for thee but not for me.'

 

I'm not saying DE shouldn't get to do these things, but when players get chewed apart over these things.... can one not understand the feeling put many have?

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15 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

At least one has stepped down (Voluntary or otherwise i will leave that for private speculation as the point is they are gone.) Two others are supposedly gone but that may be speculation or misreading information.

Going to just quote the above, but I agree with the rest of your post.

If it's the same one I'm thinking of, they have just been forced to change their name to something actually appropriate (despite even the act of having to change their username a second time to fully remove a negative term would be bannable for anyone else).

If you google their old name combined with the term "Warframe Forums", you'll find their new username and they are still an in-game moderator.

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8 minutes ago, Sean said:

If it's the same one I'm thinking of, they have just been forced to change their name to something actually appropriate (despite even the act of having to change their username a second time to fully remove a negative term would be bannable for anyone else).

Nono not that one, though the appropriate name change may be 'enough' combined with the fact the one I am thinking of had a huge off site blowup that's been archived. So considering this happened? I want to believe they did a lot of house cleaning they would rather not drag out in open because it's a case 'what does this accomplish?'

 

So bestto move forward.

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27 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Nono not that one, though the appropriate name change may be 'enough' combined with the fact the one I am thinking of had a huge off site blowup that's been archived. So considering this happened? I want to believe they did a lot of house cleaning they would rather not drag out in open because it's a case 'what does this accomplish?'

 

So bestto move forward.

 

Ooooh... I see now.

Good progress then there and it's at least a step on moving forward.

 

Edit:

Just saw their twitter-rant... just damn. That is some absolutely toxic behavior.

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33 minutes ago, Sean said:

Just saw their twitter-rant... just damn. That is some absolutely toxic behavior.

Yes, best to move on from there because can we not stare at the dumpster fire business must be attended to.

Speaking of mods? given I'm the guy who had his post removed... a lot during one of the last streams of last year thread because 'well eventually someone's going to have to speak up instead of just silently remove.' I'm glad for the mod attention and 'pruning rather than removing' attitude in this thread. 

Warframe is very clearly full of very emotionally invested passionate people. This leads to a lot of arguing, a lot of shouting and arguing. There is a reason I do not consider myself fit for community oversight. Short tempers and stressful situations where a gentle touch is the best approach nine timesout of ten is not a good combination.

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4 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

Speaking of mods? given I'm the guy who had his post removed... a lot during one of the last streams of last year thread because 'well eventually someone's going to have to speak up instead of just silently remove.' I'm glad for the mod attention and 'pruning rather than removing' attitude in this thread. 

Speaking of post removal, I'd really appreciate it if the forums mods were forced to provide the players with a logged message on why their post was removed when one of their posts gets removed.  There's been enough weirdness on the forums (and I'm generally blonde enough) that sometimes I wonder if a post just vanished because I failed to post it, or didn't post it so I'll post it again - which is a clear violation of the forum rules even though I'm being an airhead that's not being helped by silent moderation.

Part of this entire issue revolves around silent moderation, as the more they can explain about why you shouldn't do that, it will help clue in some of the players that a particular behavior isn't right.  Sometimes you can't drop hints, but rather have to smack a person with a hint a couple of times hand it to them and say "here's a hint" before they finally get it.  And (usually) once they do, most will adjust accordingly.

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1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

Part of this entire issue revolves around silent moderation, as the more they can explain about why you shouldn't do that, it will help clue in some of the players that a particular behavior isn't right.

Agree completely. Having people just hand out punishments without any hint of what was done wrong until it hits the point of 'well we have to ban you. we gave you plenty of chances even though we didn't explain or even really notify you of anything but you ran ouf of chances' really stinks.

 

On 2019-02-02 at 10:30 AM, Letter13 said:

The thing we won't post is a blacklist of the words that will trigger kickbot--this is because giving users a template of all the things that trigger kickbot will also give them the template of how to write derogatory slurs, vulgarities and rule-violating comments while evading kickbot.

Frankly this is where you and I disagree in the strongest way possible. You approach this as 'we give them any sign or hint of what is wrong and they will find ways around it.' I see your reasoning as 'we won't actually tell you the things that will get you in trouble so we can effectively make anything up we like.'

As I have said before. An issue of trust and I see little reason to trust when those in charge of oversight have that mentality about those of us that are dependent on their judgement.

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On 2019-02-02 at 12:30 PM, Letter13 said:

The rules had been (and still are) an extension of the Forum's code of conduct, along with portions of the Terms of Use Agreement and EULA (they were however more recently posted in a manner that clarifies them for people who seemed unable to be bothered with reading the forum guidelines, Terms of Use and EULA). The thing we won't post is a blacklist of the words that will trigger kickbot--this is because giving users a template of all the things that trigger kickbot will also give them the template of how to write derogatory slurs, vulgarities and rule-violating comments while evading kickbot.

I used to have an irc script that did much the same as the Kickbot, and I fully agree with the policy of not giving out the actual list. That said, I used to regularly review and adjust the list as needed. 

Japan, Niger/Nigeria, "is using equinox still the best option to trap animals on the plains still the best way to do those rivens".... Those don't violate the eula. And I think that the last time I read the eula/guidelines the specific attention was to conduct on the website. 

As for the rule-breaking template... The trolls already have it and use it to bait newbs into getting banned for innocuous comments. That much was obvious in the images included on the first post. 

 

Also what we really need is educational warnings like what the forum mods give to us when we do something they think is wrong. An explanation of what we did, allows us to adjust to better fit with what's considered acceptable conduct. An explanation of the expected duration of the punishment would also be good. We have seen quite a few examples where a rubberstamped "that's not an acceptable topic of conversation for our space ninja game" is handed out as a warning with no additional information being given. To me that's a clear example of a Mod trying to adhere to the letter of the law and refusing to adhere to the spirit. 

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19 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

Frankly this is where you and I disagree in the strongest way possible. You approach this as 'we give them any sign or hint of what is wrong and they will find ways around it.' I see your reasoning as 'we won't actually tell you the things that will get you in trouble so we can effectively make anything up we like.'

As I have said before. An issue of trust and I see little reason to trust when those in charge of oversight have that mentality about those of us that are dependent on their judgement.

Well they shouldn't list every single slur and whatever that triggers the kickbot, but just specify "no slurs of any kind, even if you don't find them offensive."

There's a lot of middle ground between listing each bad word and the vagueness we have now.

Edited by (XB1)Erudite God
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On 2019-02-01 at 10:27 AM, Almagnus1 said:

Let me ask you this, why should I care what the gender is of any tenno?

Touching back to the post, part of the issues from chat moderation comes from understanding that Warframe is a global F2P game, and certain cultures simply do not mix well.  What may be acceptable in one culture can be extremely offensive in another culture.  That means us tenno need to be a bit thicker skinned when it comes to comments as we don't know what the cultural background of any given player is.

Another issue in play is that there's maturity level of people.  While time may help with this one, I suspect a lot of the awkward male/female interactions come from lack of maturity and/or lack of experience interacting with the particular gender (perhaps mutually in some scenarios).  There's also cultural side to the interaction between genders, as some cultures are notoriously misogynistic in their view of women.

Also, why do you assume 50% female population?  Do you have access to the Warframe demographic data?  If so, can you give me a link?

lol nothing you said matters. except the first sentence. you shouldn't care about gender...

but people do, and specifically make women uncomfortable. they shouldn't. that's it. it's that simple

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Please don't take this the wrong way but I know this thread was a fair bit longer than it was, enough that I had a post on page six. Understandably some pruning is nessicary but at the same time when we're voicing concerns over  silent moderation it strikes me as funny that sort of thing strikes. Guys you seriously are not helping with the whole trust between moderation staff/volunteers and players by continuing to do this unannounced. Doesn't need to be anything particularly strongly worded just a sort of 'hey things are getting heated we're trying to keep the pot from boiling over' sort of thing?

I dunno Ijust know it appears more than a touch tone deaf to respond to player concerns over transparency and giving informative reasoning behind actions by giving the silent treatment. IT's a bit like rearranging the furniture while someone's back is turned.

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13 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

Please don't take this the wrong way but I know this thread was a fair bit longer than it was, enough that I had a post on page six. Understandably some pruning is nessicary but at the same time when we're voicing concerns over  silent moderation it strikes me as funny that sort of thing strikes. Guys you seriously are not helping with the whole trust between moderation staff/volunteers and players by continuing to do this unannounced. Doesn't need to be anything particularly strongly worded just a sort of 'hey things are getting heated we're trying to keep the pot from boiling over' sort of thing?

I dunno Ijust know it appears more than a touch tone deaf to respond to player concerns over transparency and giving informative reasoning behind actions by giving the silent treatment. IT's a bit like rearranging the furniture while someone's back is turned.

 

There's always been this strange disconnect, where a sizable chunk of the forum staff here are almost unwilling to even attempt to see it from the rest of the community's side of things. If, for example, someone makes a post requesting that a moderator inform them of their reasoning behind a deletion (considering that most deletions are now done in the shadows), you'd expect that aforementioned moderator would simply private message that individual, but for whatever reason, the forum staff choose not to even interact.

Now maybe that is something that they are told to do by some of the employees... I've had some... let's call it "interesting" interactions with a few that I could see being involved in something like that. Sometimes it even seems to be a form of "baiting", to get users to repeatedly "break" Rule #6 in the guidelines in order to provide a rationale for giving a harsher punishment.

Quote

6) COMPLAINTS – We will not tolerate inappropriate, aggressive, or hostile complaints posted on the Forums. If you have a complaint about a player, report the issue. If you have a complaint about how your behavior on the forums has been moderated, send the Moderator a private message. They will do what they can to sort out any issues. 

If a person does not know who deleted or moderated their posts, then they cannot send that user a private message. A person who is repeatedly trying to get an answer then may keep posting about it (since "send[ing] the Moderator a private message" is not an option), and for whatever reason, their posts may end up being repeatedly deleted. Again: all without receiving a word from the moderator in question. On just about any other community, the person who performed the deletions would privately inform the individual that they even DID the deletions at all and the reason they had. That is just something of common decency and hiding in the dark only looks shady. If moderators are actively told to not engage, then that should be a red flag to any of the moderators who do truly want to help that may even often feel like their hands are being tied in what they can and cannot answer.

 

Now If the person whose posts are being deleted actually does find out who did it after pm'ing a separate moderator or two, there's even cases where the one who actually performed the action opts to actively ignore the private message. That moderator then would be breaking Rule #6 and honestly should be penalized for it. Not only is that the wrong thing to do, but it makes all moderators look bad and only further erodes trust.

 

What needs to happen is that the DE staff need to begin being part of this discussion.

All we have seen so far is them "talking at" the community. What needs to happen is they need to "talk with", this is a DISCUSSION forum after all, otherwise, why even keep this topic open?

Edited by Sean
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5 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

I dunno Ijust know it appears more than a touch tone deaf to respond to player concerns over transparency and giving informative reasoning behind actions by giving the silent treatment. IT's a bit like rearranging the furniture while someone's back is turned.

As long as you remember to check for a seat before you try to sit in one, what's the problem? =P

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9 hours ago, Sean said:

All we have seen so far is them "talking at" the community. What needs to happen is they need to "talk with", this is a DISCUSSION forum after all, otherwise, why even keep this topic open?

Why allow replies?Thisis a good question.For all the discussion that's happened other than the mod that popped in after a removal/trimming of posts a few pages back there's been no real DE Staff commenting on the matter. So... if you're not going to actually talk to us and discuss rather than 'here's the announcement Yaaaay' why not post the thing as a locked topic?

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10 hours ago, Sean said:

All we have seen so far is them "talking at" the community. What needs to happen is they need to "talk with", this is a DISCUSSION forum after all, otherwise, why even keep this topic open?

It does indeed seem like there's a distinct "Us vs. Them" smell in the air, and it isn't new.

For whatever reason, staff and volunteers aren't making what I would consider to be a satisfactory effort investing in any long-term healthy relationship between themselves and the rest of the game community. Most interactions consist of brusque guideline recitation or standard talking points, and that sort of communication tends only to generate a tribalistic divide between those who agree with the statements (as presented) and those who don't.

I'm not entirely unsympathetic; the current online market space is dominated by extreme pressure to project a constant barrage of happy-go-lucky noise about your product or service. Everyone on staff is feeling a strong pull to focus their effort on other platforms, where visibility is much greater and where they feel interactions are more likely to be purely positive. One downside is that these forums have suffered a relative dearth of attention, and we've been seeing the results for some time now.

Expanding the volunteer moderation program is probably not a good answer, at least not while community concerns about guidelines and moderator conduct are at their current levels. The closed nature of these programs makes any new additions suspect by default. From the perspective of concerned players, the risk is simply too great that any existing and unhealthy attitudes or behaviors would only propagate to new team members.

Some sort of "Communication 2.0" might be necessary at this point - a redesign of the way moderation and guidelines are discussed and enforced.

This post is already getting long, so I'll stop short of attempting a comprehensive survey of the situation and all the factors in play.

I'll close by pointing out how incredibly frustrating it is that we have little to no established foundation to discuss these topics. There's no easily accessible body of knowledge, so it feels like I have to start from scratch every time. There's no dedicated space in which to discuss this stuff, so people try to bring it up whenever/wherever they think it might be appropriate. Most of the time, it's deemed not to be appropriate and consequently shut down. So many comments are edited or deleted, and I have to resort to looking through community archives to get the true tenor of the conversation.

It's exhausting, and DE staff need to understand that this makes players feel like we are putting in the lion's share of the effort on this front. I'm not saying that's actually how things are, but instead saying that's how things feel. I bet they feel overworked and underappreciated too. Maybe that should be the starting point for more meaningful conversation.

 

Edited by notlamprey
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