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Chat Moderation Changes and Additions Report!

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5 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

This post is already getting long, so I'll stop short of attempting a comprehensive survey of the situation and all the factors in play.

Whether in a different post, its own topic, or through Private Messages here Reddit or elsewhere i would be interested in your perspective as you have a quite well worded asessment of things.

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48 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Whether in a different post, its own topic, or through Private Messages here Reddit or elsewhere i would be interested in your perspective as you have a quite well worded asessment of things.

Reddit may be the answer there.

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Hey folks, going to chime in again.

This thread is for discussion and feedback of chat moderation changes and additions. Discussing forum moderation (i.e. removal of posts, warning points on the forums, etc) here may be perceived as off-topic posting and can result in posts being removed for not being pertinent to the topic of this thread. This is the reason why a handful of posts have been removed from this thread. Depending on the severity of the rule violation (or the frequency at which it is occurring), a verbal warning or a warning point for spamming may be issued.

Additionally, posts quoting or responding to another post that have been removed may be removed themselves, in order to clean a thread and get it back on topic (or remove quoting/repeating the post(s) in question which are not in keeping with the code of conduct). For these types of post removals we will not usually message or warn users when their post(s) are removed.

Long story short, as long as you follow the forum rules, your posts won't get removed. Please stay on topic.

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4 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

This thread is for discussion and feedback of chat moderation changes and additions. Discussing forum moderation (i.e. removal of posts, warning points on the forums, etc) here may be perceived as off-topic posting and can result in posts being removed for not being pertinent to the topic of this thread. This is the reason why a handful of posts have been removed from this thread.

It's a shame that the obvious has to be stated, but thank you for doing so.

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2 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

 

This thread is for discussion and feedback of chat moderation changes and additions. Discussing forum moderation (i.e. removal of posts, warning points on the forums, etc) here may be perceived as off-topic posting and can result in posts being removed for not being pertinent to the topic of this thread. This is the reason why a handful of posts have been removed from this thread. Depending on the severity of the rule violation (or the frequency at which it is occurring), a verbal warning or a warning point for spamming may be issued.

I mean, fair enough? But when the discussion constantly is pruned and edited without notice or anyone stepping forward? That highlights a problem within the wider staff culture where it gives the appearnace you don't 'have' to answer to us or explain.

I was bragging on you specifically for chiming in a few pagesago, which I will do so again because this is the exact sort of post I'd been hoping would show up. Well worded measured reasoning on 'OK thisis why the pruning is happening and i'm the one that didit.' That, that is awesome.

Thank you. I realize moderating a fairly large community is taxing even with a sizeable staff pool and you have all manner of personalities involvedon all sides, but the constant pruning and deletion without anyone from the staff side really does fuel the 'us v them' mentality where the worst fears of 'staff here only act when they're forced to, and even then with the least effort required, and if they speak it's because you truely messed up because they're annoyed they must act.' Which... is unhealthy.

 

So I appreciate you chiming in.

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1 minute ago, MarrikBroom said:

Thank you. I realize moderating a fairly large community is taxing even with a sizeable staff pool and you have all manner of personalities involvedon all sides, but the constant pruning and deletion without anyone from the staff side really does fuel the 'us v them' mentality where the worst fears of 'staff here only act when they're forced to, and even then with the least effort required, and if they speak it's because you truely messed up because they're annoyed they must act.' Which... is unhealthy.

DE community staff actually have a very active role in our day-to-day handling of forum moderation. We very frequently run certain actions and responses by said staff in the event that we're uncertain if our response(s) or actions may not be kosher, check with staff for background info (i.e. interactions with support) to investigate issues, etc. Our moderation is built upon the "asking for permission is better than asking for forgiveness" school of thought; better to check before doing something than to do something, mess up, and ask for forgiveness.

That isn't to say that we ask permission before doing any/every moderation action; when there are clear cut rule violations occurring, we hide posts and issue warnings without consulting DE staff (all of our actions are recorded and logged, however, so should a player contact support staff with a complaint of how they've been moderated the moderation or support team can track us down and inquire as to the circumstances of the moderation actions). In the event of very minor rule violations occurring (i.e. a thread being driven off-topic) we will usually hide a handful of posts to remove the off-topic conversation, and if the off-topic conversation continues after that point we'll usually chime in and tell people 'Hey, try to keep on topic' (which is what I'm doing now more or less).

Also, if anyone has any questions about forum moderation, even if it's as simple as your posts being removed and you're confused as to why (specifically, that you find your post wasn't off-topic, wasn't quoting or responding to another post that was violating the rules or wasn't removed), feel free to shoot me a PM.

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24 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

Also, if anyone has any questions about forum moderation, even if it's as simple as your posts being removed and you're confused as to why (specifically, that you find your post wasn't off-topic, wasn't quoting or responding to another post that was violating the rules or wasn't removed), feel free to shoot me a PM

This should be something that is done automatically, instead of me having to pursue a moderator to find out why my posts were removed.  And I agree with what MarrikBroom says. Simply removing the posts and following up with nothing, does nothing to foster understanding, especially when the member whose posts were deleted is of the opinion that what they stated was directly related to the topic, and while it may be a volatile opinion, it was neither offensive nor off-topic nor directed at any specific person.

If you put yourself in my shoes, it surely feels like censorship based on personal bias, rather than "rule-by-rule" forum moderation and added to that, it seems like no one cares about that here.

It's quite a disappointing thing and I've sent a message to the [DE]Community thing about it, though I don't even know who reads that, or if it even works. 🤷‍♂️ 

You all seem set on continuing this trend of moderation which I highly disagree with as well. I don't see a desire to be more proactive about this. So I feel like that's the end of me participating on this forum.

By the way, this is a suggestion for a change to forum moderation. It's not chat moderation so if you find this post off-topic too, just remove it like the rest. I'll have a screenshot saved. That's not snark, but given what's recently happened, I feel compelled to take this approach.

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So on the subjectof chat moderation:

ANy non-PC folk able to chime in? I'll admit a bit of pc-centricness to my tone and i have heard horror stories about ps4 so... Yea. Guys?

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3 hours ago, Letter13 said:

This thread is for discussion and feedback of chat moderation changes and additions. Discussing forum moderation (i.e. removal of posts, warning points on the forums, etc) here may be perceived as off-topic posting and can result in posts being removed for not being pertinent to the topic of this thread.

Ah that makes sense.  My understanding of the thread was on moderation in general, and seeing this posted a while ago would have cleared up that misunderstanding all the sooner.

3 hours ago, Letter13 said:

Also, if anyone has any questions about forum moderation, even if it's as simple as your posts being removed and you're confused as to why (specifically, that you find your post wasn't off-topic, wasn't quoting or responding to another post that was violating the rules or wasn't removed), feel free to shoot me a PM.

Maybe you could start up an official discussion thread on that as it's an off topic, yet related, issue?

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33 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

So on the subject of chat moderation:

ANy non-PC folk able to chime in? I'll admit a bit of pc-centricness to my tone and i have heard horror stories about ps4 so... Yea. Guys?

Other than the occasional trade chat and some alliance banter, I don't chat much. I blocked region chat a long time ago due to how region is.

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My thing is this if ps4 region so bad why is no changes been made or new tenno being selected for the volunteer postion. I mean come on on ps4 most mods are not even online active like they should be. I feel like other tennos are not getting the proper support, nor given a chance to evolve and become more useful in the community of warframe. I mean come on its been how long since they did gotl or mod change. It look not so good when a new tenno enter the game and is looking at complete disaster of a chat room that suppose to have human mods that there to keep it clean of toxicness. How on earth can anyone get help if they are seeing unmointor behavior and inappropriate content that suppose to be remove. I guess what im getting at is that there needs to be a greater change and new system put in place and rule and logs which i think is in effect now but never the less i think DE should remove inactive mods that are not doing anything on warframe console like xbox or ps4. And same for the guides. Its ok that u on discord but you guys need to be active on console helping new players. That the buttom line. Work as a team so that the chat room and community doesnt lose hope in the game support feild.

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On 2019-02-06 at 12:49 PM, MarrikBroom said:

So on the subjectof chat moderation:

ANy non-PC folk able to chime in? I'll admit a bit of pc-centricness to my tone and i have heard horror stories about ps4 so... Yea. Guys?

I have a PS4 account, am I able to chime in?

I've seen some pretty messed up stuff in PS4 Region chat, it really needs more moderation.  Last time I logged in, I saw someone comment "raip vs love" followed by "raip is love" and that's pretty tame for some of the things I've seen there.

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On 2019-01-31 at 10:20 AM, ssh83 said:

Speaking of chat...  some thoughts after playing as new player recently. There NEEDS to be a New Player chat channel that is visible both in and out of mission similar to Council chat.  Sometimes new player get stuck in a mission and need help but no way to ask because they're soloing or everyone else in mission is also new. 

Recruit, Trade and Region chat should be default to off for new player.  Clans/Mission recruiting for noob levels can be done in Newbie chat. At MR 2, player should get an inbox message explaining how to turn chat on/off.

5

It's been suggested, but it never seems to happen:

With a sample size of 581 people:

BloClZG.png

I never did make a polished version of the second link, but it's whatever. 

I don't hold out hope of it becoming a thing, but I still think it would be nice.

On 2019-02-01 at 2:13 PM, MarrikBroom said:

Given many folk are either in middle school or thereabouts so don't have the sort of life experiance in the first place, are socially inept (like myself,) or are shutins due to disability or other reasons (also myself,) causing a lack of social graces? That is entirely possible.

Ideas would be welcome on how to address this within the community so folk can learn rather than it feel worse... without enabling the more skeevy sketchy behavior out there.

4

There is no way to do that. There's no mechanic in the system to make an allowance for such instances. It isn't DE's responsibility, nor should it be.

But we do have humans who operate levers within the system. As humans, individuals who aren't being perverts and are socially inept, challenged, or inexperienced, can still make their case to a moderator or support (who are also humans) and explain a little about themselves.

If the explanation is legit, it's possible the ban can be lifted, and if not, at least they can talk to a human being about the mistake and learn from it.

The individuals can also speak to people that know them (either as friends online or in real life) to better understand the situation. No matter how socially inept you are, you know someone you can talk to in most cases.

If you have absolutely no one to talk to, make a thread on r/warframe and explain what happened. 

Outside of common humanity and community, there's no mechanic within the system to differentiate between an inappropriate pervert and a socially inexperienced/inept individual.

Regarding the first post, thanks, Rebecca. It is progress, but there are several well-reasoned posts here concerning the progress that still needs to be made.

I do not use Region chat. I haven't removed the tab because I still pop in there once in a blue moon. But I no longer help other players/answer questions, which I did at one time (briefly) before I tired of Region's general flavor. (Pretty sure I blocked one cat who took issue with me helping another member instead of letting them Google it/use the Wiki. Region was for chatting and sh**-chatting. Not helping new players.)

Edited by Rhekemi
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"No profanity" is one of the rules we have. Seems simple enough, right? However, you can drop as many f-bombs as you want without any threat of getting kicked, unless you follow it immediately with a "you." Even "f u" to nobody is an instant ban. But if you use the f-bomb as just an expletive/adjective, it's A-OK, and even the chat mods don't do anything about it.

Also, when you say certain things, words that are way less severe than the f-word, kickbot nabs you without any notification or anything. Chat just sorta stops. What's the deal with that? Sometimes it warns you, sometimes it tells you that you're kicked, sometimes it doesn't. Why not make it just behave the same way every time? There'd be way less confusion, and way less complaints in the forums and tickets to DE asking for clarification if we just had a more understandable system.

I feel like it wouldn't really be that hard to make things a little more uniform. 

Edited by (XB1)Erudite God
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5 minutes ago, (XB1)Erudite God said:

"No profanity" is one of the rules we have. Seems simple enough, right? However, you can drop as many f-bombs as you want without any threat of getting kicked, unless you follow it immediately with a "you." Even "f u" to nobody is an instant ban. But if you use the f-bomb as just an expletive/adjective, it's A-OK, and even the chat mods don't do anything about it.

There is no inconsistency in this.

5 minutes ago, (XB1)Erudite God said:

Also, when you say certain things, words that are way less severe than the f-word, kickbot nabs you without any notification or anything. Chat just sorta stops. What's the deal with that? Sometimes it warns you, sometimes it tells you that you're kicked, sometimes it doesn't. Why not make it just behave the same way every time? There'd be way less confusion, and way less complaints in the forums and tickets to DE asking for clarification if we just had a more understandable system.

You might want to follow the news.
DE is working on a new system for the chat moderation. You will receive a message telling you the reason for the ban. (probably not the specific word, but the reason)

And actually, the rules are easy to understand:
Don't insult other people. A simple "#*!%" doesn't insult someone. If you use it together with the word "you", then you clearly want to insult another person. (This is the case for "f u" aswell. And no, there is no "f u" to nobody, as you said it before, because the "you" implies a direction to another person)

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On 2019-02-11 at 1:04 AM, WhiteMarker said:

There is no inconsistency in this.

What do you mean by this? The rule is "no profanity" but its highly contextual. Some profanities are okay all the time, some are okay sometimes, and some are okay never. The only way to figure this out is trial and error.

"You will receive a message telling you the reason of the ban." This is supposed to already happen, according to tickets from DE about chat. I hope they finally start doing it.

"Actually the rules are easy to understand: Don't insult people."
Yes, that's the "be respectful" rule, which is currently off-topic. We are discussing the "no profanity" rule right now. 

Edited by (XB1)Erudite God
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Very quick intro: I'll try to be as concise and to the point as I possibly can.

Quick disclaimer: Sorry for the salt, I tried to keep it to a minimum.

First off, why I dislike an automated auto-kicking system:

1a) Players don't ever get warned on what is the unacceptable terminology they cant use. They get automatically kicked if what they said, is considered inappropriate by some AI.

2a) We don't ever get to know which words or topics are unacceptable to use in the chat, which means 2 things:

-Players get completely blindsided when saying something that is considered inappropriate.

-Players cant complain if they think the use of a specific word, isn't worthy of getting suspended.

-Kickbot doesn't tell you which part of what you said is unacceptable, so you sometimes cant guess which part of the message is considered suspension worthy.

3a)Because of how this game works, getting suspended from Recruit chat, Trading chat, and even private chat, for anyone that cares about efficiency this is basically a temporary ban. You can play but you cant do anything specific(wich anyone above mr 4 is usually doing).

 

 

Now how I think it could be improved upon:

Make a list that every player can access on the internet(it doesn't have to be ingame), wich lists every single word that is suspension worthy. Reasons why this is so important:

1b) Players get blindsided at most one time, and that's it, Simply make kickbot include in the message, "when sending messages in the future, considering reading this list of suspension worthy words.". Or even if you don't, probably a player well tell them about the list anyways, or just make it one of the default messages you get when entering region chat.

^^ Doing that cant be hard from a coding perspective at all, so its not like it requires a lot of development being made, also its not costy.

2b) If its ridiculous for a word to be suspension worthy, the community can see it, and the community will complain. I get that in a game the developers have the ultimate say. However the way things are now, the community can't even complain, because they don't know what to complain about, because there is no real official site where you can know, what can you say, and what you can't. I get that we don't have a vote, but we at least should have a say.

3b)  Please, for the love of god(which I don't believe in), make an in-game timer for when you are suspended, you guys already have a timer, I don't get why its not there for the player to see, there is literally no downsides to that(unless you want to spread fear in the chat, and make everyone tiptoe in your chat, for no other reason than making people be more polite.Id like to believe DE doesn't intend for this).

 

Now If you want to be really awesome, and make me like the devteam even more than I already do:

Auto-kicking shouldn't even be a thing, there aren't that many people in the chat at the time, you can make the bot flag the comment, and later a moderator can review it, literally no reason why the punishment needs to be so instantaneous.

Make an option, where the player can choose to have a delay when sending messages, in exchange for kickbot to review before posting it, for example: if you typed a message with the N word, with the first option(the current and only one). It sends the message, and suspends you after a second or so.

The new option I'm proposing: you send the message, it reviews it before posting it, if it has offensive language, it just deletes the message and never sends it, with no suspension, just a warning, maybe implement a strike system here if you want, but I don't know why it should be needed, as no one that can get offended by the message will ever read it.

This makes it so the player can pick the delay if he wants to be able to write in a more relaxed manner, which I would definitely do, and I think a lot of people would.

Situational unnecessary reading(if you're a dev, you should probably skip that part):

Right now im always stressed out about if what I'm writing can get me suspended. Literally I typed mierda, which is S#&$ in Spanish, in the south American server, with my language set to Spanish, and got suspended. I don't know how that can be offensive, I wasn't directing it to anybody, it was some sort of exclamation, just as when people say "Holy S#&$" in English.

I'm more careful when writing in Warframe chat than talking to a 3 year old, which is pathetic for an M rated game. Literally im at a stage in the game, that when i'm in region chat, most of what I do is just helping noobs out, and its a really fun and enjoyable experience for me, Its really sad that it becomes stressful just because someone decided that I should be scared of writing my own words, when literally only one time, 2 players were offended because of something I said, and we talked it out, like mature people in an M rated game.

I've been chat suspended far more times than 1, from a patronizing auto-kickbot, it literally feels like the devs underestimate us, like we are some sort of oversensitive 2 year olds, when my personal experience tells me that mostly people are mature(well except poor people buying rivens, they sometimes whine and insult).

Such an oversensitive system has no need to be in place, because there are only 2 possible scenarios, and you lose in both:

first scenario: your community is toxic, you implement this, a huge part of the community leaves. Some will like the game more because of it, but the largest portion is nowhere to be found

second scenario:your community is largely not toxic, and mature: This is just unnecessary in this case, you can already mute people, so why have this stupid layer, wich just renders everyone unable to loosen up in recruit chat, WICH IS THE WHOLE POINT OF REGION CHAT, IS LITERALLY SOMEWHERE YOU BURN TIME.

After a few days I will remove the saltiest parts, maybe.

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28 minutes ago, Kaizal said:

1a) Players don't ever get warned on what is the unacceptable terminology they cant use. They get automatically kicked if what they said, is considered inappropriate by some AI.

DE has stated they don't want to provide a list because that will give trolls a tool to create workarounds and bypass the system.

28 minutes ago, Kaizal said:

2a) We don't ever get to know which words or topics are unacceptable to use in the chat, which means 2 things:

-Players get completely blindsided when saying something that is considered inappropriate.

-Players cant complain if they think the use of a specific word, isn't worthy of getting suspended.

-Kickbot doesn't tell you which part of what you said is unacceptable, so you sometimes cant guess which part of the message is considered suspension worthy.

DE encourages players to use common sense regarding appropriate topics in Region chat.  For the most part, you'll never go wrong if you stick to Warframe related topics.

28 minutes ago, Kaizal said:

3a)Because of how this game works, getting suspended from Recruit chat, Trading chat, and even private chat, for anyone that cares about efficiency this is basically a temporary ban. You can play but you cant do anything specific(wich anyone above mr 4 is usually doing).

Breaking the rules results in a harsh and lasting punishment to deter repeat offenses.  For the most part, this works rather well.  Besides, it's not much of a punishment if you don't learn anything from the experience.  The "nuke it from orbit" moderation style leaves a lasting impression on players, even if they aren't recipients of the ban. 

28 minutes ago, Kaizal said:

1b) Players get blindsided at most one time, and that's it, Simply make kickbot include in the message, "when sending messages in the future, considering reading this list of suspension worthy words.". Or even if you don't, probably a player well tell them about the list anyways, or just make it one of the default messages you get when entering region chat.

^^ Doing that cant be hard from a coding perspective at all, so its not like it requires a lot of development being made, also its not costy.

2b) If its ridiculous for a word to be suspension worthy, the community can see it, and the community will complain. I get that in a game the developers have the ultimate say. However the way things are now, the community can't even complain, because they don't know what to complain about, because there is no real official site where you can know, what can you say, and what you can't. I get that we don't have a vote, but we at least should have a say.

3b)  Please, for the love of god(which I don't believe in), make an in-game timer for when you are suspended, you guys already have a timer, I don't get why its not there for the player to see, there is literally no downsides to that(unless you want to spread fear in the chat, and make everyone tiptoe in your chat, for no other reason than making people be more polite.Id like to believe DE doesn't intend for this).

 

28 minutes ago, Kaizal said:

Auto-kicking shouldn't even be a thing, there aren't that many people in the chat at the time, you can make the bot flag the comment, and later a moderator can review it, literally no reason why the punishment needs to be so instantaneous.

There are several phrases that were removed due to auto kicking that are provided in the above link.  Due to that example, I fully support automated kicks and removals. 

28 minutes ago, Kaizal said:

Make an option, where the player can choose to have a delay when sending messages, in exchange for kickbot to review before posting it, for example: if you typed a message with the N word, with the first option(the current and only one). It sends the message, and suspends you after a second or so.

The new option I'm proposing: you send the message, it reviews it before posting it, if it has offensive language, it just deletes the message and never sends it, with no suspension, just a warning, maybe implement a strike system here if you want, but I don't know why it should be needed, as no one that can get offended by the message will ever read it.

This makes it so the player can pick the delay if he wants to be able to write in a more relaxed manner, which I would definitely do, and I think a lot of people would.

I like the concept but on the other hand, maybe don't talk about things that have you saying the N word in public channels?

28 minutes ago, Kaizal said:

Right now im always stressed out about if what I'm writing can get me suspended. Literally I typed mierda, which is S#&$ in Spanish, in the south American server, with my language set to Spanish, and got suspended. I don't know how that can be offensive, I wasn't directing it to anybody, it was some sort of exclamation, just as when people say "Holy S#&$" in English.

I'm more careful when writing in Warframe chat than talking to a 3 year old, which is pathetic for an M rated game. Literally im at a stage in the game, that when i'm in region chat, most of what I do is just helping noobs out, and its a really fun and enjoyable experience for me, Its really sad that it becomes stressful just because someone decided that I should be scared of writing my own words, when literally only one time, 2 players were offended because of something I said, and we talked it out, like mature people in an M rated game.

Not sure how the games rating should have any bearing on how you talk.

28 minutes ago, Kaizal said:

I've been chat suspended far more times than 1, from a patronizing auto-kickbot, it literally feels like the devs underestimate us, like we are some sort of oversensitive 2 year olds, when my personal experience tells me that mostly people are mature(well except poor people buying rivens, they sometimes whine and insult).

Maybe when you're playing but there are plenty of example in the link I provided further up that proves otherwise.  And that's just from one platform, not all 4.

28 minutes ago, Kaizal said:

first scenario: your community is toxic, you implement this, a huge part of the community leaves. Some will like the game more because of it, but the largest portion is nowhere to be found

38 million users, I don't think the kickbot is doing as much damage as you assume. And if someone leaves because they can't blast public channels with offensive content, I really don't see that as a loss to the community. 

28 minutes ago, Kaizal said:

second scenario:your community is largely not toxic, and mature: This is just unnecessary in this case, you can already mute people, so why have this stupid layer, wich just renders everyone unable to loosen up in recruit chat, WICH IS THE WHOLE POINT OF REGION CHAT, IS LITERALLY SOMEWHERE YOU BURN TIME.

The point of Region is determined by DE.  You see it as a place to burn time, others see it as a resource for information.  

Muting people is a good strategy but, as pointed out in an archived and locked thread, DE also has to deal with Canada's anti-hate speech laws, so they are forced to engage in moderation to keep their company from being fined.  (I have a feeling that if that legislation wasn't in place, moderation would be a lot more lax)

Edited by MagPrime
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51 minutes ago, Kaizal said:

I've been chat suspended far more times than 1, from a patronizing auto-kickbot, it literally feels like the devs underestimate us, like we are some sort of oversensitive 2 year olds, when my personal experience tells me that mostly people are mature(well except poor people buying rivens, they sometimes whine and insult).

What could possibly give DE the impression that you are an oversensitive toddler?

One of the quickest pivots from claimed maturity to demonstrated immaturity I think I've seen in one of these Concerned Citizen/The N-word is a matter of opinion type posts. Kudos.

24 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

DE also has to deal with Canada's anti-hate speech laws, so they are forced to engage in moderation to keep their company from being fined.  (I have a feeling that if that legislation wasn't in place, moderation would be a lot more lax)

Anything beyond non-DE people claiming this applies at all to DE's chat? It's usually people taking a vague understanding of other countries' laws and making sweeping assumptions.

Edited by peterc3
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3 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Anything beyond non-DE people claiming this applies at all to DE's chat? It's usually people taking a vague understanding of other country's laws and making sweeping assumptions.

I haven't seen anything official from DE or their volunteers but I haven't gone digging for it either. 

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How surprising, another rant to rework the Auto-Kick coming from someone who gets kicked everytime he says something in the chat.

Hint: Maybe, maybe, the problem comes from you.

I didn't read all your rant because it's probably the usual rant about "point of view", "I'm a nice guy", "that is über-easy to develop, believe me, I'm a bus driver" or "freedom of speech" nonsense, but I'm pretty sure that even you know that nobody can take your post seriously with this amount of hatred inside.

Edited by Chewarette
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Hmm, would it maybe be a bit better if instead of kicking players right off the bat, the bot could delete the message and send a warning via PM first? At a 2nd offense then it should kick them.

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1 minute ago, TheRealShade said:

Hmm, would it maybe be a bit better if instead of kicking players right off the bat, the bot could delete the message and send a warning via PM first? At a 2nd offense then it should kick them.

Wouldn't it be better if people stopped using insults and bad memes all the time?
OP used the N-word as an example. But why removing just the N-word? If someone used that word, they clearly don't know how to behave. So why wait for a second offense to ban them? Ban them right away.

Almost everyone uses region chat without a problem.
And then there are a few people that get banned. This isn't a problem of the system. The banned people are the problem.

And DE is working on a change of the system, so that you get a PM about the reason for the ban. So people don't have to ask in the forum about it.

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Obviously things aren't and never will be perfect, but the steps toward improving things are appreciated.

On 2019-02-11 at 2:54 AM, (XB1)Erudite God said:

"No profanity" is one of the rules we have. Seems simple enough, right? However, you can drop as many f-bombs as you want without any threat of getting kicked, unless you follow it immediately with a "you." Even "f u" to nobody is an instant ban. But if you use the f-bomb as just an expletive/adjective, it's A-OK, and even the chat mods don't do anything about it.
 

If you drop an f bomb because something happened and you lost some sweet loot or you just missed a nitain alert, it isn't a big deal. If you go on a tirade and keep dropping bombs left and right, a mod will tell you to chill out if they see it (and leave the person in chat). I've seen it happen plenty of times in the past, at least on PC where I play.

The problem with that rule if you consider it as black and white is that they could make it no profanity where any word deemed to be so would be removed or get a kick/ban or they could not have the rule and there would be people using f bombs every other word. So we have a reasonable kind of middle ground leeway even though it says "No profanity". If they tried to clarify how it is actually treated it then they'd have to say "No extended string of profanities", "Only occasional profane outbursts", or "You are allowed no more than 3 profane words in a 1 hour period". That would be even worse to understand if people even read it. But lots of people don't even pay attention to that block of text that appear when chat loads at all since problematic people can't even follow the cut and dried "No Spamming" and "Be Respectful" parts.

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10 hours ago, MagPrime said:

DE has stated they don't want to provide a list because that will give trolls a tool to create workarounds and bypass the system.

I understand the stance and generally support the tactic. But a glance at region chat tells me that the trolls and bigots can already bypass the system. 

 

10 hours ago, MagPrime said:

DE encourages players to use common sense regarding appropriate topics in Region chat.  For the most part, you'll never go wrong if you stick to Warframe related topics.

Except for having seen screen shots of someone getting banned for asking "is using equinox to help trap animals on the plains still the best way to unlock veiled rivens or is there a better way". 

The list seems to be populated with things that weren't well thought out. Since the bot lacks the ability to distinguish context, it falls to the curators of the list to ensure that it only triggers on the types of phrases you want blacklisted. It takes more work than just tossing new terms on at whim, but ultimately is time better spent than countless bans for false positive. 

10 hours ago, MagPrime said:

Breaking the rules results in a harsh and lasting punishment to deter repeat offenses.  For the most part, this works rather well.  Besides, it's not much of a punishment if you don't learn anything from the experience.  The "nuke it from orbit" moderation style leaves a lasting impression on players, even if they aren't recipients of the ban

I support harsh bans for breaking the rules. I don't support the system that hands out harsh bans when rules haven't actually been broken, and punishes ignorance of arbitrary terms equally harshly. What you learn from that system is that it is broken. 

 

10 hours ago, MagPrime said:

I like the concept but on the other hand, maybe don't talk about things that have you saying the N word in public channels?

I'm given to believe that the chat system can be made to filter terms instead. If this is the case then it should be possible to create a universal filter that would eliminate the need for the kickbot's function. Again I have no problem with banning people for intentionally breaking the rules. I favour skipping the nukes and going right up to kinetic bombardment, but not when I'm seeing proof of such a flawed blacklist. 

10 hours ago, MagPrime said:

38 million users, I don't think the kickbot is doing as much damage as you assume. And if someone leaves because they can't blast public channels with offensive content, I really don't see that as a loss to the community. 

That would work better if you can safely use inoffensive terms. Our system currently doesn't offer that. 

10 hours ago, MagPrime said:

The point of Region is determined by DE.  You see it as a place to burn time, others see it as a resource for information.  

Muting people is a good strategy but, as pointed out in an archived and locked thread, DE also has to deal with Canada's anti-hate speech laws, so they are forced to engage in moderation to keep their company from being fined.  (I have a feeling that if that legislation wasn't in place, moderation would be a lot more lax)

Since DE has not banned the use of region chat "to burn time" it seems safe to assume that they don't think of it as exclusively one or the other, don't you think? 

And please understand, I have never been banned from chat as far as I know. I have been warned by the bot about not using the region chat to trade, but that was a false positive. (And the response I got from players was that the bot is dumb like that.) I have no problem accepting that "their house" means "their rules". I am usually strongly pro-moderation. I also used to moderate in an Irc using a script similar in function to the chat's kickbot. 

I know the entire playbook, both the good and bad sides of it. 

There are serious flaws in the system. Both the automated and the human sides need a very serious review, because what I have seen suggests that some of what we are having problems with, is not the direct result of DE policy, but rather the effects caused by individuals or groups within the system using the leeway to steer it in their own direction. 

 

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