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[DE]Rebecca

Chat Moderation Changes and Additions Report!

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46 minutes ago, CazadorDeWulf said:

This post has been kind of hilarious so far. I think I commented earlier on. A lot of the internet's greatest attributes(worst, rather) lie in the anonymity of the poster/commenter/player. It is only logical that those too afraid to test the resolve of their peers in public will only try so here, where ultimately they get rooted out and punished where it is deserved.

That said, I have no idea what is going on in the thread now. I tried to read and follow along but woof.

Another chat moderation improvement thread got merged with this one.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Abuse of power is a separate issue. The fact remains, when a human doles out the suspension, context is taken into account.

It's actually half the reason this thread exists as that abuse of power was demonstrating to the trolls how to bait people into getting themselves banned, among other things.

Edited by Almagnus1

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9 hours ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Abuse of power is a separate issue. The fact remains, when a human doles out the suspension, context is taken into account.

And the fact remains, when the bot does it, it is not.

As noted in the original post, the vast majority of moderation actions are done by the bot.  Perhaps most of those are warranted, and perhaps most of the unwarranted ones are only a brief kick and not a suspension, but it's not perfect, and mistakes will be made.  The question is whether and how to improve on it.
Reasons have been stated for why making [part of] the bot's configuration public might be an improvement, and reasons have been stated for why making [all/a large part of] the bot's configuration public might be damaging.  Seems to me there's quite a bit of room for more transparency there without risking the stated downsides, but that's my opinion.

15 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

If you treat others with respect, then you'll be fine. 

That's how it should be, but this whole update to the chat moderation system became necessary because that was not always [perceived to be] the case, perhaps especially in recent months.  The perception is important, so making visible changes is important.

---

The fact that the changes to moderator selection, oversight and retention have stopped short of letting [some particular] old moderators go does not mean there wasn't improvement.  The fact that there was improvement doesn't mean there's no room for more.  Airing the past's dirty laundry in public has been tried, but DE has yet to respond to that, so it seems like a non-starter; we can only try to make sure future infringements of the [newly/slightly clarified] moderator code will be reported and acted on.

Toward that end, I'll echo that the requirement for an opinion to be 'constructive' is just a little too broad to allow a moderator to disrespect a player for holding it.  Let's place that particular bar a little bit higher, shall we?

---

It seems important to note that the chat moderator page prohibits the moderator from doing certain things, such as using 'Any racist, sexist, homophobic, or transphobic terms', which puts the onus on the moderator to make blah-self aware of those terms.  That's perfectly reasonable for a community representative.  This same onus is on the players themselves in regards to race (where slurs and stereotypes are explicitly actionable), but not to this:

Quote

Sexism and bigotry

  • Attacking players for their sexual identity or orientation.
  • Using alternate spelling or alluding to slurs based on sexual identity or identification through masked or reordered characters

...so:

  • if you're attacking individual players, you're gonna be moderated (duh)
  • if you're making more broad malicious statements, against 'people that do/think <x>', you're gonna be moderated
  • if you're knowingly bypassing the filters to try and say things that you know are slurs, you're gonna be moderated
  • BUT if you just straight up say something that is considered (by whom?) to be a sexual slur, that's NOT on the human-moderation list

That's a pretty big oversight, especially with recent events, to just gloss over.  Please don't just leave it at "we said it's non-exhaustive" in regards to this.

I think that 'sexual slurs or pejoratives' should also be on that list if there's gonna be moderation based on them (outside the context of attacks or almost-spellings).  If that moderation is handled by a bot, instead of humans, that only solidifies the point.  "Modified at our sole discretion" shouldn't mean "configured to enforce additional rules we didn't bother to tell you about."  "Nezha is gay" is a useless and annoying thing to say, but doesn't match your current guidelines as actionable.  "Traps are gay" is a stupid and hurtful meme, and should absolutely trigger the bot, if not human moderation.  "A Gay Guy Plays" is the name of one of your partners, not a slur.  "You are gay" is often meant as an insult, but "I am gay" is a neutral statement about oneself.  If you're gonna have the word trigger the bot across all contexts, then at least include [potential] sexual slurs in the list of actionable items.

Humans being over-zealous in defining what a slur is, is a problem.  The bot being similarly over-zealous, with no feedback and with the only faintest idea of context, is a much bigger one.  If you solve the problem of slurs by not addressing it, and secretly changing the bot, you do so at the cost of severe damage to your credibility.

 

Edited by mactrent
Expanded 'slurs not on the list - oversight?' section; clarified action should be taken for slurs in context

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3 hours ago, mactrent said:

 "Modified at our sole discretion" shouldn't mean "configured to enforce additional rules we didn't bother to tell you about." 

First of all thx for addressing the obvious fallacy, it was getting tiring seeing it being repeated to so much. But what you said there pretty much sums up my whole tesis on what should be done. At the moment any changes, adjustments, etc. Are only seen and modified by DE, atm by recent changes on moderation system, it seems like DE has good intentions, but DE is a company, not a beacon of goodness and respect, meaning it can and will change, the more regulations we have to make them keep themselves in check, the more likely they keep being in this road of improvement. 

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I saw a lot of peeps trying to trick kickbot with variations of the N word.
Responded with "Niger is a country in the continent of Africa".
Now enjoying some chat suspension myself.

Why ?

Everytime I try to engage or defuse toxic players, I get banned for no really good reason at all.

Niger is a country.
At least, it was a country.

Longtime player, absolutely love warframe, but I despise being chatbanned for trying to alleviate a situation.

Thoughts ?

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25 minutes ago, (XB1)MagicToro said:

I saw a lot of peeps trying to trick kickbot with variations of the N word.
Responded with "Niger is a country in the continent of Africa".
Now enjoying some chat suspension myself.

Why ?

Everytime I try to engage or defuse toxic players, I get banned for no really good reason at all.

Niger is a country.
At least, it was a country.

Longtime player, absolutely love warframe, but I despise being chatbanned for trying to alleviate a situation.

Thoughts ?

That's some of the ridiculousness that I want out of the chat moderation system, that's why i'm writing a S#&amp;&#036;ton of posts basically defending my position. I had already seen tons of cases like yours if not suffered them myself, so this is no news to me, and I don't think just turning off region chat is the solution.

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2 hours ago, (XB1)MagicToro said:

Niger is a country.
At least, it was a country.

Still is, actually.

The chatbot rules need to be reevaluated, as there's certain words (and regular expressions) that DE needs to let up on.  Especially the one that involves a warframe and the word trap, as there have been several valid examples here that would get someone banned.

 

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19 hours ago, Kaizal said:

Correct, DE decides what is and is not respectful. --> Even more DE decides what regulations to put in place or not, the ridiculousness of those, and how vague and subjective the word "respectful" is one of the reasons im currently typing, if I didn't believe in DEs authority, id simply try to force them to do something, which i'm not, i'm trying to have a reasonable conversation.

Well, we are going in circles, so I'll leave it at that.

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It's been quite a while since this all began and still very little has been done.

More than enough time has passed to even just have responses by employees to discuss what is going on and to discuss the feedback that has been posted throughout this topic.

 

There are still numerous issues with what has happened and with the system itself.

DE can cherry-pick behavior and use them as "examples" in order to pat themselves on the backs and to self-congratulate on their "job well done" as much as they want, but that's all those examples do. It isn't so much that they are "examples", it is mainly that they are missing context as I could even pick out various lines within RedText and any of the streams, and it would be an "example" of horrible / disgusting behavior... but that is if I don't include the overall context.

It isn't helped though that DE won't even bother to address anything within this topic or elsewhere, zero discussions have occurred that an employee like @[DE]Rebecca or even @[DE]Bear have taken part of in regards to this subject. Just dropping something and running off without answering anything is not the best way to restore trust.

 

Edited by Sean
...
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17 minutes ago, Sean said:

It's been quite a while since this all began and still very little has been done.

More than enough time has passed to even just have responses by employees to discuss what is going on and to discuss the feedback that has been posted throughout this topic.

 

There are still numerous issues with what has happened and with the system itself.

DE can cherry-pick behavior and use them as "examples" in order to pat themselves on the backs and to self-congratulate on their "job well done" as much as they want, but that's all those examples do. It isn't so much that they are "examples", it is mainly that they are missing context as I could even pick out various lines within RedText and any of the streams, and it would be an "example" of horrible / disgusting behavior... but that is if I don't include the overall context.

It isn't helped though that DE won't even bother to address anything within this topic or elsewhere, zero discussions have occurred that an employee like @[DE]Rebecca or even @[DE]Bear have taken part of in regards to this subject. Just dropping something and running off without answering anything is not the best way to restore trust.

 

We do know for certain that one problematic chat moderator is no longer with the program.  I won't say anymore publicly about that.

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So, I see that last month a lot of people seemed to get booted for kick-baiting other users into triggering the bot - my question, I suppose, is then 'what happens to the poor saps that get baited?'
I recently (yesterday) got absolutely jebaited by a user who I won't name here but can provide the name to staff members if requested, asking if anyone could help him get banned from region chat. The benefit of hindsight makes it fairly obvious that they were a bad-faith actor just trying to bait idiots like me into banning ourselves, but in the moment I was just trying to help out someone who I assumed was just trying to temporarily avoid distraction while questing or something, so I @'d them with a means to trigger the bot, and in doing so fell right into their t-
...*consults thesaurus*
...ambuscade. I suppose at this point, I'm just left to wonder how long I'm suspended for (since there's no clear indication in the suspension message) and how I'm supposed to run  my clan in the meantime (since ALL chat is disabled and I'm the founding warlord - it's not a big clan admittedly, but still).

I'm definitely not going to complain that I GOT kicked - even though I was acting in good faith, I still fell for it like an idiot, so fair enough - but I do really feel the need to echo other users calling for an increased clarity in the chat suspension process. Things like the amount of time the suspension is for, the reason for the suspension, and possibly even an option to still be able to PM moderators in the event that the bot kicks you for something undeserved, like saying "After some testing in the simulacrum, I found that Nezha's passive slide makes it easier to throw out Simaris' kinetic siphon traps really far".

To any staff reading this, thank you for your time and consideration-
- @DaraSilverDragon

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1 minute ago, DaraSilverDragon said:

So, I see that last month a lot of people seemed to get booted for kick-baiting other users into triggering the bot - my question, I suppose, is then 'what happens to the poor saps that get baited?'
I recently (yesterday) got absolutely jebaited by a user who I won't name here but can provide the name to staff members if requested, asking if anyone could help him get banned from region chat. The benefit of hindsight makes it fairly obvious that they were a bad-faith actor just trying to bait idiots like me into banning ourselves, but in the moment I was just trying to help out someone who I assumed was just trying to temporarily avoid distraction while questing or something, so I @'d them with a means to trigger the bot, and in doing so fell right into their t-
...*consults thesaurus*
...ambuscade. I suppose at this point, I'm just left to wonder how long I'm suspended for (since there's no clear indication in the suspension message) and how I'm supposed to run  my clan in the meantime (since ALL chat is disabled and I'm the founding warlord - it's not a big clan admittedly, but still).

I'm definitely not going to complain that I GOT kicked - even though I was acting in good faith, I still fell for it like an idiot, so fair enough - but I do really feel the need to echo other users calling for an increased clarity in the chat suspension process. Things like the amount of time the suspension is for, the reason for the suspension, and possibly even an option to still be able to PM moderators in the event that the bot kicks you for something undeserved, like saying "After some testing in the simulacrum, I found that Nezha's passive slide makes it easier to throw out Simaris' kinetic siphon traps really far".

To any staff reading this, thank you for your time and consideration-
- @DaraSilverDragon

It's a week (IIRC cause the same thing happened to me) and this is the exact reason why:

  1. A human needs to audit the kickbot logs
  2. Kickbot needs to tell us WHY something is wrong when we get auto-banned
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5 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

We do know for certain that one problematic chat moderator is no longer with the program.  I won't say anymore publicly about that.

 

I know, and they left of their own volition, so not an action that DE performed.

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29 minutes ago, Sean said:

I know, and they left of their own volition, so not an action that DE performed.

While I dispute that conclusion, the main point is that they're gone so it's still a win for the community.

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14 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

While I dispute that conclusion, the main point is that they're gone so it's still a win for the community.

 

I've spoken to a few people that could verify that was what occurred.

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I'm afraid the current state of communication on this topic isn't quite satisfactory for me either.

We haven't heard much at all, particularly from the person who was supposed to be directly interfacing with us on this topic.

For all appearances, the wagons have been circled and we've been given a statement that we are just supposed to accept in the absence of substantial verification. Assuming it is still an effort to really improve things, I think a few people would agree that DE's statements in the OP would be more convincing if they were accompanied by some corroborating material (like screenshots of the offending items as they appeared in context, which I think should be standard logging practice).

Surely DE understands the damage that misinformation can do. It wouldn't be particularly difficult for someone to simply make up what looks like a few instances of "toxic chat" if they are under pressure to do that and no one is checking behind them. Someone should always be checking behind, because the consequences of drafting policy based on even partly fabricated reporting are serious - never mind whether you believe you're morally justified in doing so.

No, I'm going to continue my policy of avoiding moderated game chats and I advise other people to do the same for the foreseeable future.

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I say if DE isnt recuirting new members that are trust worthy and no good feedback is comeing from new changes then to just trash the whole program all together because there no use for gotl nor is it for human mods that are not active on regular bases. It all added up to be one big mess. I mean like i stated before gotl is never really help outside from discord and most of them has grown lazy over time. There no need for fellow tenno to be sleeping on the job lol. Far as the forums go idk.

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Id like to point out that my thread got merged with this one, so its not like someone its not reading at least the titles, what bothers me is that they haven't taken 2 seconds to even say "we are working on it", or "we like it as it is now" in which case I would keep posting on the issue till eternity, or "we have been doing this so far, what do you people think about it".

On ‎2019‎-‎02‎-‎19 at 4:42 PM, notlamprey said:

No, I'm going to continue my policy of avoiding moderated game chats and I advise other people to do the same for the foreseeable future.

Its really mind boggling that this has to be a recommendation people actually do.  It would be nice to have at least confirmation that this is being read at all.

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11 hours ago, Kaizal said:

what bothers me is that they haven't taken 2 seconds to even say "we are working on it"

Isn't that the point of this thread?

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I'll be dropping in and posting some of the weekly reports I get from our professional Mod team so everyone knows what we're tracking and why in terms of moderation and noteable trends. It should be very clear from these reports the entirety of why we bother Moderating at all, and what our priorities are since making systemic changes. Luckily for a game as large as ours our Problematic User list is quite short, but it allows us a consolidated area to keep our in-game Region chat focused on our Space Ninja game. Nezha is a trap is pure spam - kickbot kicks spam as per the 'no spamming' rule.
image.png

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I gotta ask, seeing the Trends you're posting, are you guys considering clearer UI for Baro availability? 😛

Thanks for the heads up Rebb 🙂

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