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Heidelgard

Alternative solutions to the kick system

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So by reading the forum I realize that the kick or vote kick system, is rejected by the majority of the players. Personally I'm a bit sad about that, but on the other side I understand that it can also be abused and people can can find themselves kicked out from a match for no reason at all.

But even if we all agree to say no to the kick system, the root of the problem remains, which is people that nowadays still abuse and take advantage of the absence of a kick system. And by this I mean the old problem about leechers and trolls.

If you are unsure of what I mean, I have put some examples into the spoilers tag, so if instead you know about them, just skip them.

 

Examples of leeching:

Spoiler

a player that, during an excavation mission, hides in a safe place where he cannot be hit by any monster, and once in a while he taps the movement buttons to avoid entering the afk status, so he can get all the rewards while at the same time he's doing something else in real (now it is understandable if a player has an unexpected problem in real life and he types "brb!", the problem here is if a person deliberately exploits other players to get rewards); another situation could be the one during the bounties, there are players that simply remain near the start point and wait there, contributing zero to the objectives of the bounty; and another one is about using warframes abilities to hide and stay afk for the entire duration of a defense mission, like a limbo by pressing shift or a duration/efficiency modded ivara.

 

Examples of trolling:

Spoiler

players that deliberately do something with the intention of breaking the game or annoy other players, like a limbo that uses the rift to have fun watching other players being unable to interact with a console for almost 1 minute straight (you can tell the difference between a troll and a player that made a mistake, you can just write in the chat to ask him to remove the rift, because the game cannot proceed, and if he's not a troll he will remove it, otherwise he'll just stand there or he'll use dance gestures); a nova that suddenly pushes you in the middle of the enemy horde or into somewhere that can glitch you out and then you have to unstuck; a loki that constantly uses the switch ability on you to prevent you from entering or leaving a room.

 

Now to fight those problems, usually you can find 2 solutions in the forum, leave the match to join another one or just play solo. Playing solo of course fixes the problem, but still, you cannot play everything solo, well you coulddd but there are some game modes that are easier/more enjoyable/more rewarding if you play them in a group, for example interception, void fissures, kuva farming and some sorties. Leaving the match also helps but still, it feels like they always have to win.

So what I would like to do, is exploring alternatives to the kick system, to try to reduce this problem so maybe we can reduce some frustration in game. So here are a couple of ideas that we can try to discuss.

 

Blacklist: alright we cannot kick players, so let's focus on something we can do only on ourselves. If a player encounters one of those harmful players, he can decide to add that player into his personal blacklist, by an in game option or a command. The purpose of this new list, is to avoid entering in a mission that contains a player that has been blacklisted, so during the matchmaking there's a function that reads the names of the players in the group, and if a name matches one of those that you have in your blacklist, the game won't let you get inside that match. And If a blacklisted player joins the mission when it's already started, you may receive an alert notification and choose if to leave or remain in the mission. Of course this happens in secrecy, other players won't know you have blacklisted them.

 

Squad mode: another solution could be having a new type of matchmaking, I would call it Squad mode (which in the end is an evolution of recruiting chat). So the host of the match can set up a lobby inside his Orbiter, he can also set a custom mission title, for example  "Argon Farming", "Radshare N4", "1 Hour Arbitration". So when players choose squad mode option in their matchmaking list, when they click on a mission, a list of the available lobbies will appear and they can decide which one to join. Once you join, the player will be teleported into the host's Orbiter, and there the host (leader of the group) can discuss with the other players to check if everyone agrees and share the same intention, and then the mission can start (being teleported into the host's Orbiter it's just a fancy idea, it's not really necessary, it can also be done by remaining in owns Orbiters). Then another feature can be that the host can also set advanced settings for the match, for example he can set the time limit in a survival mission or a wave limit in defense mission, so instead of being endless, the players will automatically extract when time reaches the limit that has been set by the host. And another detail, you can also have an option to view all the current active lobbies in the entire star chart, so you can join one of them from this big main list. One last minor idea, a simple function to give to a player a +1 point of reputation, you can give it once for each player and then people can build up their own squad reputation meter. 

 

These are the alternatives I can think about to replace the kick system. Probably they need to be adjusted, but I just wanted to contribute and try to come up with something to fight this big problem in our beloved game.

I would like to see what you guys think about this, and if the majority of you think that this is not necessary, we can simply discard this idea.

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Hi.

All I can add is that every last public games I played in the plains had at least 1 player going for wisps and / or mining while we were on the mission spot.

Leaving doesn't bothers me when the whole team does it but if it's just 1 player out of 3, this player should be pushed to leave.

For me somthing clearly needs to be done because all it does is making players play solo or private which is a shame.

Maybe put a range from objectives outside of which you wouldn't get the loot ? (applies more to the plains than other places, but it could be a start ...)

 

PS @SilverRook: yeah and just trolling is supposed to be constructive ? there is an issue that hasn't been adressed and turned me and most of my friends / clan to play solo or private. We're high level so we don't need others, but helping low levels without being trolled could also be nice...

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46 minutes ago, (XB1)JestersShade said:

PS @SilverRook: yeah and just trolling is supposed to be constructive ? there is an issue that hasn't been adressed and turned me and most of my friends / clan to play solo or private. We're high level so we don't need others, but helping low levels without being trolled could also be nice...

He just demonstrated that trolling is indeed an existing problem.

I hope that my post won't get flooded with those, I just wanted to discuss an idea, everyone is free to agree or not.

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A Blacklist is the solution to me. In my opinion it should work the following:

  • When joining a match, it checks if any of the squad is in your blacklist. If so, it choses another match or hosts a game.
  • When hosting it refuses blacklisted clients, this should happen seamless and make the refused client look for a different host.
  • When playing as client, it ignores your blacklist. (This may mean you can end up with blacklisted people, but should be alleviated over time).

In the future DE can even check players that have been blacklisted often, evaluate if this is justified and enforce proper punishment if necessary.

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I like the idea of blacklists. And it works in many other games. Of course, we're always talking about a personal private blacklist, not something like a wall of shame where players are put to be whitch hunted. It would be a list where I can put someone and the matchmaking system will automatically ignore the games where those players are and, as said above, will refuse blacklisted players if I'm host.

You can't abuse it, because adding people to the blacklist just means you are removing someone from your games so blacklisting everyone will only affect yourself.

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Just now, VenomousValentine said:

Doesn't blocking already do this?

Nope, you can ignore a player, but that only means you won't read their messages in chat anymore.

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3 hours ago, Heidelgard said:

Now to fight those problems, usually you can find 2 solutions in the forum, leave the match to join another one or just play solo.

Three. There are 3 solutions people keep offering. The third one is reporting the leechers and trolls, providing proof that they were in fact causing a problem in the game. 

👍 ✌️ 👌

😉

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1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Three. There are 3 solutions people keep offering. The third one is reporting the leechers and trolls, providing proof that they were in fact causing a problem in the game. 

👍 ✌️ 👌

😉

That's really correct, thanks for pointing it out.

And this also reminds me that reporting them is not that easy. Screenshots are usually considered not very reliable as evidence (understandable, it's really hard to judge a delicate matter such as banning someone, while relying only on a few pictures), especially for leechers, the best would be recording a video. And it can be even more difficult if you are for example in a defense mission or excavation, if you start focusing your attention in gathering evidence about a leecher, in the end only 2 players are really fighting and playing the mission. And when you have this evidence, you send the ticket and with some luck he'll get suspended for a little while. I feel like it's a waste of time and effort, I mean, I wanna play warframe and not the detective that gathers evidence, so if there was an in-game function, such as the blacklist that I mentioned in my first topic, everything could be much easier and immediate! A player could simply add someone that does something inappropriate, in his own personal blacklist, no effort required and no time wasting both for players and warframe staff.

Well, I said immediate, but technically you have to bear with him until the end of the match, or just leave. Because when you add someone into the blacklist, you do it during a match, while he's still in the same group with you, so once you leave the group, you won't meet him ever again.

@guzmantt1977, sorry for this long and maybe unnecessary reply, it's just that your message gave me one more argument to bring to the table.

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Blacklist, maybe not. This may cause problems with games that allows 3 or more players. Mostly in recruitments, invites, and friend trying to join. Don't make it worst with a new message of cannot invite or join due to blacklist, when recruitment or friend is in a squad that someone have blacklisted a person. And I sure hope host migration won't kick players out due to new host having blacklisted players.

 

Squad mode: Yes, this will be better then the poor recruitment chat. This will allow players to know if the squad is full without wasting time waiting for invite and without wasting time of other player. Relic radiant share appears to be the most common thing in recruitment so add an option to require all players to have this relic to join and automatically equip a specific relic set by host.

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4 hours ago, Heidelgard said:

guzmantt1977, sorry for this long and maybe unnecessary reply, it's just that your message gave me one more argument to bring to the table.

Perfectly all right. 

 

4 hours ago, Heidelgard said:

And this also reminds me that reporting them is not that easy. Screenshots are usually considered not very reliable as evidence (understandable, it's really hard to judge a delicate matter such as banning someone, while relying only on a few pictures), especially for leechers, the best would be recording a video. And it can be even more difficult if you are for example in a defense mission or excavation, if you start focusing your attention in gathering evidence about a leecher, in the end only 2 players are really fighting and playing the mission. And when you have this evidence, you send the ticket and with some luck he'll get suspended for a little while. I feel like it's a waste of time and effort, I mean, I wanna play warframe and not the detective that gathers evidence, so if there was an in-game function, such as the blacklist that I mentioned in my first topic, everything could be much easier and immediate! A player could simply add someone that does something inappropriate, in his own personal blacklist, no effort required and no time wasting both for players and warframe staff.

It's not really supposed to be easy. Not too long ago there was a person proudly saying that they had recently reported 4 in an hour, and feel the to report people very often for unsportstmanlike conduct or something like that. 

Think about what would happen if it was easier for that person, and folks like that. Some people are inclined to report people for any and everything and often don't realise that that sort of thing is often toxic behaviour in and of itself. 

 

Folks like that will probably end up blacklisting everyone, until the only pool of players is their friends. Might have been easier if they just change their matchmaking and be done with. Which is something we can already do. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

It's not really supposed to be easy. Not too long ago there was a person proudly saying that they had recently reported 4 in an hour, and feel the to report people very often for unsportstmanlike conduct or something like that. 

Certainly there is a possibility that player in question just reports players for... whatever but I really wouldn't be surprised that he was indeed matches with 4 lechers in 1 hour.

If people in 100-200 ping range around you are civilized then you might play without getting matched with a single leecher ever, and all this talk about leeching might seem stupid.

On the other hand if you live on let's saaaay... Balkan your experience with leechers might be a bit different.

 

Edited by LightZodiac
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10 hours ago, ScribbleClash said:

A Blacklist is the solution to me. In my opinion it should work the following:

  • When joining a match, it checks if any of the squad is in your blacklist. If so, it choses another match or hosts a game.
  • When hosting it refuses blacklisted clients, this should happen seamless and make the refused client look for a different host.
  • When playing as client, it ignores your blacklist. (This may mean you can end up with blacklisted people, but should be alleviated over time).

In the future DE can even check players that have been blacklisted often, evaluate if this is justified and enforce proper punishment if necessary.

And what if a bunch of people blacklist a player for no reason?

When joining, it checks your blacklist, but if you're a client, your blacklist is ignored. How would it be alleviated over time? What justifies putting someone on a blacklist? Proper punishment for... what? This lacks any kind of meat.

This is a basic solution to a complex problem. 

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1 hour ago, LightZodiac said:

Certainly there is a possibility that player in question just reports players for... whatever but I really wouldn't be surprised that he was indeed matches with 4 lechers in 1 hour.

If people in 100-200 ping range around you are civilized then you might play without getting matched with a single leecher ever, and all this talk about leeching might seem stupid.

On the other hand if you live on let's saaaay... Balkan your experience with leechers might be a bit different.

 

Oh don't get me wrong, Tenno. I know that it's possible that they ran into many trolls and leechers who were so bad that they were negatively affecting his game. But when others pointed out why a vote to kick is a bad idea, the next step was to accuse those of us opposed to the idea of being active leechers in the game. 

I usually don't slow down enough to tell if someone is leeching. Most of the time I don't even care, because I try to go in with the ability to complete the mission regardless of what anyone else is doing. 

 

And from what I've seen, that dude is not the only one who thinks that anyone not doing things his way is a leech, or worse. Seriously, if one player in a squad stopping for a moment to do some fishing is ruining my ability to get the job done, then I am not good enough.

How many people would blacklist someone just because they have a limbo, or a newb with a crap build, who keeps need to be revived? Or the entire team because of a failed mission? Or had an open microphone, and bad taste in music? Or poor fashionframe skills? Or did the least damage because they were support? 

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8 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Folks like that will probably end up blacklisting everyone, until the only pool of players is their friends. Might have been easier if they just change their matchmaking and be done with. Which is something we can already do. 

About that, I would like to mention that the blacklist maybe could have a size limit (but it's hard for me to tell the max size without knowing how many players there are in total), and it will kind of balance itself, because every time that you add someone into your blacklist, you will have 1 less possible match to join when you are looking for a public game. It's a double-edged sword, so it's something you should do only if it's really really necessary.

And this is freely up to the player choice, if he can deal with them, then he doesn't need to to anything, otherwise if he wants a cleaner and safer game experience, he can decide to use the blacklist.

Also yea if you play with your friends no problem, but if currently you have no friends online, and you would like to play in a group, you have to go for public matchmaking and meet random players, that's where the blacklist comes in. And sure you can use the recruitment also for a safer way, but sometimes I guess we just want to go and play straight.

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another solution would be to extend the "leave squad + migration" we have in the plains so that it can be used everywhere at least, along with fixing the host migration system.

we could even add the possibility to invite other people of the squad to leave with you.

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Merging the ignore list with a blacklist is indeed a good idea.

Trolling is another story though. Sometimes people are trolling on purpose (Limbo preventing items from being activated, Vauban launching mines under players etc.) but sometimes this is just plain idiocy or at best lack of knowledge/attention or whatever. Who knows, perhaps the guy playing Limbo didn't know about items being locked into cataclysm, perhaps he's not reading the chat (i wouldn't blame anyone for that tbh) etc.

If one could make a difference between this and that it'd be awesome but truth is that you can condemn everyone for next to no reasons. This kind of debate is so 2019, people can't stand anything these days and sometimes you have to make some effort. If you've met someone with real issues, well you can still quit the mission. One should really understand the difference between [I'm not pleased so i insult you for some reasons] - "hey stop playing speed Nova you moron you're killing us all; go kill yourself" and [the quite platonic] "Sorry but i can't stand this Nova build" and leave.

This thread is also about education and patience, something many people seem to lack of too these days. 😈

Edited by 000l000

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I like blacklisting for several reasons. Besides blocking griefers and leeches, I could also add people who only play press-4-to-win frames and spin2win weapons to the list. That way I can guarantee I'll never play another game in public that isn't being trivialized by one person.

Barring that, we should incorporate the mechanics from Orb Vallis to the rest of the game. You can leave squad while in the middle of the game, forcing a migration for you if you're a client, or everyone else if you're the host.

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6 hours ago, Heidelgard said:

About that, I would like to mention that the blacklist maybe could have a size limit (but it's hard for me to tell the max size without knowing how many players there are in total), and it will kind of balance itself, because every time that you add someone into your blacklist, you will have 1 less possible match to join when you are looking for a public game. It's a double-edged sword, so it's something you should do only if it's really really necessary.

Total is probably 10's of millions. Average concurrent number on Steam tends to be above 50k and less than 100k. 

Honestly on my end its uncommon to run into the same player multiple times over different gaming sessions anyway. I can only recall one instance of running into what I think is the same toxic player multiple times. 

4 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Trolling is another story though. Sometimes people are trolling on purpose (Limbo preventing items from being activated, Vauban launching mines under players etc.) but sometimes this is just plain idiocy or at best lack of knowledge/attention or whatever. Who knows, perhaps the guy playing Limbo didn't know about items being locked into cataclysm, perhaps he's not reading the chat (i wouldn't blame anyone for that tbh) etc.

There's also the fact that we may not understand why someone has done something, and take it for them being a bad player or troll even though what they're doing is a good thing. 

I saw someone complain that as a Garuda they noticed the Stalker coming, so they turned the last enemy of the wave into a health popsicle to help boost the squad and make the fight easier by delaying the next wave of enemies. Well his squad mates started the screech about how dumb he was for wasting everyone's time. 

I've personally had experience in pug hunting Eidolons with a high MR player with very few captures, started asking if it was my first time hunting probably because I did something they didn't understand. I was the last man through the gates. There were at least 3 lures captured but none charged. I headed to Terry and started zapping him. Still no lures..so I go as slowly as I feel comfortable going and at some point, realised that I can pop the joint and work on the shields for the next by the time those guys get their act together. The lures didn't show up until just before I popped the second joint. So one guy figured that he could probably try and school me. I responded explaining that it wasn't my first time, but they were all just abysmally slow charging the lures and I got bored of waiting.

Or in a previous acolyte event, during a defection, I charged the health pods, and escorted multiple groups, then went hunting down side passages for the acolyte. I found, marked, killed and then marked the drop, before heading to escort the last group, and then went to extraction. Some moron starts screeching about how he was the only one doing all the work. I pointed out that I was the one who found and solo'd the acolyte and marked the drop, and asked what he was doing the whole time. He screeched that he did all the killing, and I pointed out that my kill count was higher than his and I wasn't killing stuff while looking for the acolyte. 

And I have seen lots of cases of people ranting because someone was on the other side of the map, only to have them reply that they're searching for hidden caches (which they found and we all benefitted from it). 

 

So yeah, 1) actual trolls, 2) n00bs who don't realise that they're doing the wrong thing, and 3) people who are doing the right thing and some idiot decides that they're a leech. 

And the proposed systems never actually show how they'd prevent people from misreporting or blocking folks who aren't actually being toxic players. 

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On 2019-02-02 at 3:35 AM, peterc3 said:

And what if a bunch of people blacklist a player for no reason?

When joining, it checks your blacklist, but if you're a client, your blacklist is ignored. How would it be alleviated over time? What justifies putting someone on a blacklist? Proper punishment for... what? This lacks any kind of meat.

This is a basic solution to a complex problem. 

If someone blacklists me for no reason, I'd be happy to not play with that person.You have a Switch blacklist that works with most of the games that makes precisely this. I can put a person in a blacklist for whatever reason, but in the end, the person that's going to be punished for abusing that system is me, since the game won't, in most of the cases, pair me with anybody (due to my big blacklist). Seems you're getting it wrong. When I blacklist someone the game works so I am the one not getting paired with him. Meaning that if that person is already in a game, I won't be able to enter that game. If I join a game but i'm not the host, the game will ignore also the list so that person blacklisted will be able to join without problems either.

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