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(XB1)Cubic Clem

The Profit Taker is a much more fun experience than the Eidolons..

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Because there's no:

Time gating

Heavy Meta requirements

Time gating again

Long story ahead:

What I love about the Orb Mother is that I, myself, can decide when I want to fight it.

I seriously hope Eidolons get another look at.. because currently they're not fun. You have to have and use currently 5 out of the 39 Warframes.. You have to use Sniper Rifles or alike .. otherwise it's nearly impossible to do anything decent with that stupid time limit always clinging in the back.. 

And the time gating, oh boy.. I never really experience negative stress in video games, but Eidolons.. oh lord.. literally yesterday I tried to find a team to do them (under pressure because the time is ticking) then I joined someone, we collected more and went out to the plains.. I don't know what the hell happened in chat but one guy left immediately, the host rambled and rage quit, forcing me and another guy into host migration which took ages and then failed.. my fun was removed completely and I was about to vomit.

Because this is my experience every freaking time I want to fight them. And what causes this stress? TIME GATING. And this has nothing to do with challenge, just luck to get a team, no bugs etc..

What I'd love to see: 

+Remove the time gating, not completely of course: let us collect (maybe a new resource?) something to force a "night like" behavior of the environment to force out all 3 of the Eidolons (WITHOUT a time limit, for fun!).. or maybe use existing ones like radiant shards or so.. this would be a huge stress relief for those who just want to have fun.. this is also good for players that stay away from the meta for reasons.. so we can use other frame, weapon and amp combinations..

And for those that love the timegating, nothing changes, there will still be the usual intervals..

Rambling over.. dear Lord I think I'm gonna cry because of this experience..

TL;DR:

Give players the opportunity (with resources) to force the night onto the plains (only for the session) to fight the Eidolons with no time limit..(or let it always be 50 minutes after starting the mission)

Edited by (XB1)Cubic Clem
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No it's not. Time gating doesn't add or remove fun. But constant knockdowns, one-shot kills out of nowhere and all the bullsh*t attached to the spider fight makes it way worse in terms of fun than the Eidolons.

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vor 7 Minuten schrieb Gabbynaru:

No it's not. Time gating doesn't add or remove fun. But constant knockdowns, one-shot kills out of nowhere and all the bullsh*t attached to the spider fight makes it way worse in terms of fun than the Eidolons.

If you destroy the beacons there's no such things.. it's literally in your hands to decide how the battle goes..

the couple of spoders I fought was always smooth and fun, much less random dying than in Eidolons.. and I'm running them pugs only, so no perfect team composition either..

Edit: not to mention that I'm able to bring what I want into battle, not what I have to..

Edited by (XB1)Cubic Clem
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1 minute ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

If you destroy the beacons there's no such things.. it's literally in your hands to decide how the battle goes..

the couple of spoders I fought was always smooth and fun, much less random dying than in Eidolons.. and I'm running them pugs only, so no perfect team composition either..

Yeah, I would. IF they would stop becoming invisible/invincible. I dunno if they fixed that, but I've already given up on the mission. It's clearly not made for solo, unlike the Eidolons, so it can buzz right off.

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Gerade eben schrieb Gabbynaru:

Yeah, I would. IF they would stop becoming invisible/invincible. I dunno if they fixed that, but I've already given up on the mission. It's clearly not made for solo, unlike the Eidolons, so it can buzz right off.

Must be a PC exclusive bug then.. because on xbox I don't have that issue :3

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14 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

It's clearly not made for solo, unlike the Eidolons

i mean, neither really is. but either can be completed fairly efficiently Solo, since our Stats are so gigantic.

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I have started getting back into Eidolons because I want to get 1,000 Hydrolyst captures. I also have ~400 Crisma Toroid. The gimmicks in both fights make them pretty close to equal on the annoyance side. The time gating of Eidolons is annoying, however the ease of the access and extremely easy boss of the Profit Taker gets old much faster.

I can do a 5x3 (haven't done 6 yet), but I am always in the mission for 50 minutes. The Profit Taker takes ~2 minutes and 30 seconds and you will get many more runs in which means faster burnout. I'm waiting for the new Orbs to release, but I find Eidolons more fun than the Orbs.

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vor 7 Minuten schrieb taiiat:

i mean, neither really is. but either can be completed fairly efficiently Solo, since our Stats are so gigantic.

Not if you're not using the meta.. I have no rivens for example, so I have to work with what is possible

Eidolons are a pain with the Timelimit in the back if you're not using the meta

Spiders on the hand feel and play out much better without the meta..

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vor 1 Minute schrieb Voltage:

I have started getting back into Eidolons because I want to get 1,000 Hydrolyst captures. I also have ~400 Crisma Toroid. The gimmicks in both fights make them pretty close to equal on the annoyance side. The time gating of Eidolons is annoying, however the ease of the access and extremely easy boss of the Profit Taker gets old much faster.

I can do a 5x3 (haven't done 6 yet), but I am always in the mission for 50 minutes. The Profit Taker takes ~2 minutes and 30 seconds and you will get many more runs in which means faster burnout. I'm waiting for the new Orbs to release, but I find Eidolons more fun than the Orbs.

Again, all possible with heavy meta usage, without, your stated stats are massively different. And de shouldn't hail and force the meta on non meta users.. my suggestion would benefit the normal user.. IDC about the meta players and how they would abuse anything because the game shouldn't be catered around them

Just my opinion..

I have, for example, fun when the fight takes 50 minutes for 1x3, I have no issue with that, but the issue is that it's annoying that I can't decide for myself when I want to do Eidolons, and the "have 50 mins fun and wait after that" sentiment.. if it's for balance, hell, remove arcanes from the drop tables when doing a forced Eidolons hunt.. IDC.. I just enjoy the concept of a boss fight.. and one shotting a boss and stuff is not fun to me, that's why I'm heavily invested into the game after 7000 hours.. and I don't want that taken away from me..

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45 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

Edit: not to mention that I'm able to bring what I want into battle, not what I have to..

You can perfectly bring whatever you want during a Tridolon. As much as during the Spider, if you don't care about efficiency, everything is possible.

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vor 1 Minute schrieb Chewarette:

You can perfectly bring whatever you want during a Tridolon. As much as during the Spider, if you don't care about efficiency, everything is possible.

Tell that the pesky time limit if you join the battle "too late", why is it even a thing to start them "too late" it doesn't fit Warframe at all, comparing all other content with it.. not to mention the awful time finding a group in recruit chat which also takes time.. 

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I actually agree and disagree in one time. 

Yes, time limit, time gating, forcing people to use meta is pain in the bottom if you want to do more than 3x3 at one night, this is completely stupid and I really hate it, especially when you cant find a decent team, instead you are forcing to search specific team with specific gear. This is seriously broken.

In other hand, we got Profit-Taker fight, where of course you can do it with random people and without meta builds but here we have absurdly moronic amount of staggers and knockdowns and enemies spawns from every possible direction, and it's raising and get even more moronic when you let that alarm goes up. So if you really want that fight to goes smooth you actually need meta here, otherwise your experience about this fight will be equal to frustration.

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6 minutes ago, THeMooN85 said:

Yes, time limit, time gating, forcing people to use meta is pain in the bottom if you want to do more than 3x3 at one night, this is completely stupid and I really hate it, especially when you cant find a decent team, instead you are forcing to search specific team with specific gear. This is seriously broken.

In other hand, we got Profit-Taker fight, where of course you can do it with random people and without meta builds

But all of these are non-problem.

You cannot compare the "pain" of needing a specific setup to do 6x3 and a Spider in 25 minutes because you went full yolo.

You can tricap with an Atlas/Stubba/Mote Amp group. You can kill the Spider with the same group. You want efficiency ? Then you'll go meta team / Lanka / x27 / Void Strike+Wisp for the Tridolon, but guess what, you'll be stacking Chromas for the Spider (ironic huh? Tridolon's Meta gives you the choice between 4 frames, while Spider's meta gives you the choice between one frame). How is that more fun ?

OP is complaining more about the "time gating" which isn't actually that bad. 45 minutes every 2h30 is often enough. Meanwhile, the Orb is 100% of the time present, meaning you can run it all day but you'll likely give up after 5 kills anyway as she is boring as hell, and she doesn't drop anything relevant anyway.

Edited by Chewarette
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1 hour ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

...

Eidolons are a pain with the Timelimit in the back if you're not using the meta

Spiders on the hand feel and play out much better without the meta..

So basically you're saying spiders are much easier than tridolons. Which I agree with, and I'm not particularly happy about. However you need to remember one thing: this is still the first spider. There's probably a couple more coming, like they did with eidolons. When all we had was the teralyst, the meta wasn't so rigid like it became afterwards with tridolons. People just used Chroma for the most part (like they do with the spider anyways), but you'd see more variety in weapons, frames, etc. Heck, Titania was very popular back then. 

I honestly think time gating is one of the few things actually saving the tridolon fight from being trivial, cause it gives people something to strive for in speedrunning them and becoming better at it. Doing 5x3 or 6x3 is actually challenging. Requires a rigid meta, sure, but I don't mind that. And folks who don't care about the meta can still easily do a tridolon fight in one night cycle with whatever loadouts they want. It's really not an issue. The profit taker is just brain dead easy atm. The mechanics are interesting, but DE actually came out in a dev stream and stated they were making the orb fights purposefully more accessible to newer players. Which blows my mind, considering they are now worried about WF's lack of challenge and difficulty and trying to find solutions for that (probably just because of Anthem's competition looming in the horizon). 

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vor einer Stunde schrieb --END--Rikutatis:

So basically you're saying spiders are much easier than tridolons. Which I agree with, and I'm not particularly happy about. However you need to remember one thing: this is still the first spider. There's probably a couple more coming, like they did with eidolons. When all we had was the teralyst, the meta wasn't so rigid like it became afterwards with tridolons. People just used Chroma for the most part (like they do with the spider anyways), but you'd see more variety in weapons, frames, etc. Heck, Titania was very popular back then. 

I honestly think time gating is one of the few things actually saving the tridolon fight from being trivial, cause it gives people something to strive for in speedrunning them and becoming better at it. Doing 5x3 or 6x3 is actually challenging. Requires a rigid meta, sure, but I don't mind that. And folks who don't care about the meta can still easily do a tridolon fight in one night cycle with whatever loadouts they want. It's really not an issue. The profit taker is just brain dead easy atm. The mechanics are interesting, but DE actually came out in a dev stream and stated they were making the orb fights purposefully more accessible to newer players. Which blows my mind, considering they are now worried about WF's lack of challenge and difficulty and trying to find solutions for that (probably just because of Anthem's competition looming in the horizon). 

What I'm saying is often don't even come to battle (or have less time) the Eidolons because everything is always rushed, stressful and in a hurry because you only have a set time limit and then have to wait for hours. If this is fun to you, than hats up.

The thing I love about the spider is you have no time limit except at the end which is doable in a fair way, plus, you don't have hours to wait to do it again.

 

With spiders, I go online and play.

 

With Eidolons, I go online, browse sites to check the time, rush to recruit, desperately trying to find someone, in a hurry, then mess with people that can't read or whatever, then start with a half baked team, deal with rage quitters because someone in the team isn't perfect, go back to recruit, in a hurry again, tons of time lost, finally find the team, surprise! You can do it 1x (with luck!) and now wait hours to try again. Not to mention if you're like a minute too late there's no one to recruit.. 

NOT FUN! and it's always the same every single time. It's just way too stressful dealing with Eidolons.. and pugs? You're constantly in host migration because people didn't bring what they're "supposed to" 

 

If DE gave us the ability to start an Eidolons hunt when we want, it would be a million times less stressful.. and we had more time to slowly get a team together, give it the 50 min mark if you love speed runs, but please, I want to decide for myself when I want to play that content.

Edited by (XB1)Cubic Clem
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hace 14 horas, (XB1)Cubic Clem dijo:

You have to have and use currently 5 out of the 39 Warframes.. You have to use Sniper Rifles or alike .. otherwise it's nearly impossible to do anything decent with that stupid time limit always clinging in the back.. 

 

The Profit-taker requieres to have and use currently 1 out of the 39 Warframes... and dont deny it cause if you go to a public group with X frames, the most probable composition will be your X frame and 3 Chromas. 
"Maybe, but you dont have to use Chroma", you dont have to use ANY frame in particular for Eidolons. 
The slowest part of the Eidolon hunt is breaking the shields cause you are capped by the AMPs damage, so the frame you are using at that moment is irrelevant. 
Your lures are dying? Instead of having a Trinity use 1 of the 4 in the team to fill it and leave them far. When you are about to break a limb, bring ONE to prevent him to leave and regen more shield. 

You are slow at breaking the limbs? Bring damage buffers (Chroma, Rhino) even other warframes can give damage to allies with the correct mods (Saryn for taking an example). Use someone who can selfbuff his damage by a good amount to make the things faster (Mirage).
"You have to use Sniper Rifles or alike" is efficient, yes, cause their are tall, but in fact you can even get into you Archwing and shoot them from there. 

"otherwise it's nearly impossible to do anything decent with that stupid time limit always clinging in the back." you oversee something important. Without doing Eilodons you can farm ~350k of Focus, even with a booser and that would need some time in ESO, depending on the rotation of maps and, ofc, some of the OP frames to farm in there. ONE trilodon hunt hives 155k so even doing 1 hunt a day increases you focus farming capacity by A LOT without having to use an Afinity booster. 
"that stupid time limit" you have 50 minutes to finish a run, the problem is the people who wants to do 7 runs in a night, or start doing Trilodons while you can start doing Terralyst and farm a good amount of focus in thoose 50minutes. 

The ONLY requieriment is a nice AMP i will say, but ALL the other things you are complaining are more cause you want the "meta" way to do it. If you dont like or dont have thoose "5 frames" gather a group with people with the same problem and THINK a plan to do it. And, if with all of that you CANT do a trilodon in 50minutes, go back and do a couple of Terralyst and even in that way you will gain a good amount of extra focus. 

Edited by SarusMindfury
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Agreed.  Yeah, the Profit-Taker is easier.  Yeah, the Profit-Taker is a much, much better-designed fight.  Difficulty does not equal and is not proportional to Quality.

Even ignoring the efficiency pressure that time-gating applies (Since it seems everyone else is dismissing that despite it greatly contributing to the quality of the fight), I'll take knockdows (that are 100% preventable) over "OH HEY I HEARD YOU LIKED BEING ABLE TO SEE WELP TOO BAD" with no graphical settings actually fixing it.

The Profit-Taker's attacks are better telegraphed, much more reactable, and you're not escorting drones the whole time.

The terrain is much more interesting and varied, with plenty of ledges, height differences, and the ability to see what is actually going on.

It's a huge target that isn't swinging around tiny weak spots with misaligned hitboxes that have damage reduction that greatly discourage weapon variation.

Any frame can solo the Profit-Taker in a reasonable amount of time.  I still haven't bothered doing the Hydrolyst because the fights are so annoying to the point that it's just an incredibly boring slog,  I could do it easily, but I just don't want to because the fights beyond the Teralyst aren't fun in the slightest, at which point it stops being a game and starts being chores.

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They're both pretty bad.

One has time gates, pointless Operator progression and a forced meta the other has enemies who ignore core mechanics like stealth and barrier effects, constant control effects hindering players from playing, pointless progression with Arch-guns and yet another forced meta. Profit-taker is marginally better but bad is still bad.

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A thing i forgot to mention: easy =/= fun

I had to make my homework to not feel a leecher on the hunts, the profit taker is soloable for everyone who have a Chroma and without even needing outstanding mods. Probably you could equip the 3 Umbra Mods full and some quality of life (duration, efficiency) and kill it solo in less than 10min. 

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2 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite God said:

I was really hoping that the Orb Mothers, being the equivalent of Eidolons, would have a whole new set of Warframe Arcanes. 

I heard that DE hasn't added all of the rewards yet so for the time being, I think we should wait to see what comes up next.
I wouldn't mind seeing something new then just arcanes again.
Like being able to craft custom exilius mods for warframes. Pure utility options only.(mostly?)

Now IMO, I think the Orb mother is much more fun to play.
I've only started 6 months ago and even now I cannot bare to play the Eidolons.
At least for the Orb mothers the NPCs of Solaris tells you what we need to do and I don't have to do a bunch load of homeworks to understand how to play a damn mission. Not to mention the time gating and having to wait/gather/study stuff is just horrible.
Especially for some who doesn't get the chance to play long hours frequently, easy access and straight forward mechanics are a huge appeal which I hope DE adds the accessibility and proper guidelines for the Eidelons in the future.

Edited by Shaburanigud
grammer errors.
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It's a near copy paste formula from PoE. Teralyst didn't drop anything but faction items till they added the other two either.

It's a way of prolonging content by baiting players with new gear. Next there will be an Event like the Infested one to bring players back.

Both PoE and Vallis have nothing to offer long term once you take the gear grind away. Meanwhile I'll do a Survival just for fun.

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If you aren't worried about the absolute optimal way to kill Orb Mothers as fast as possible, why are you so worried about doing that for Eidolons? Kinda seems like a double standard.

 

Oh no, a co-op team game requires you to have a healer/support in your squad, this is unacceptable. Besides that "keep the lures alive" role (that is unnecessary for Teralysts), you can bring any set of Warframes and appropriate (high single target damage, sniper not mandatory) weapons and do a Tridolon in a night cycle. Want to do more than that? THen you have to get the appropriate gear. I can't tell, do people want Warframe to have more challenging content hat requires us to strategize or not? You can't have content be "bring anything you want" and "strategize team comps" at the same time. Do you want to do a 3x3? Of course you have to min/max your comp, but the exact same thing can be said if you want to do sub-five min Profit Taker.

 

And time gating Eidolons means that doing them fast actually means something. There is no suspense, sense of danger, or cathartic reward for killing Profit taker. Besides for the just as arbitrary final stage timer for Profit Taker you can just relax. And sure, a "relaxing" boss fight is not inherently bad, but I am pretty sure that is not what people are looking for in these massive boss fights. The PoE night cycle makes your night time three times as valuable which massively rewards those veteran end-game players that partake in the min-maxing. Again, isn't this something the community has been asking for? Content that rewards a veteran for being a veteran?

And you talk about how Eidolons "require" certain frames, what about how Profit Taker is so heavily biased towards bringing a tanky Warframe? Unlike the Eidolons you can't really be strategic with your positioning or movement to avoid damage, Orb Vallis is known for its AoE and knockdown spam and Profit Taker dials all of that up to eleven.

 

Profit Taker is weird. It has a considerably lower skill/communication/weaponry requirement but has a higher Warframe requirement than Eidolons. It would be far easier for a newer player to contribute to an Eidolon hunt than to an Orb heist given that the new player is knowledgeable.

Edited by DrBorris
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17 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

It's clearly not made for solo, unlike the Eidolons

Excuse me what.

The Eidolons are like the definition of solo unfriendly. You have to do three things at once to do the Eidolons, which is, in decending order of importance, operator DPS, lure management, and actual DPS. If you don't have operator DPS, the fight takes forever, without a Trinity the lures die, and a lack of actual DPS means the -lyst will do its shield recharge which wastes 30 seconds to a minute every time it happens. Solo is all fine and dandy for the Teralyst, as you can just use Volt because the Teralyst will die fast enough and it doesn't do high burst damage that kills the lures. But as for doing a tridolon, you absolutely have to at the bare minimum pub it in order to do it with any sort of reliable speed. Sure, there's that one solo speed run that does the tridolon in less than 15 minutes, but that strat is inconsistent, and spams so many energy pads I'd rather go to recruiting and get a consistent 3x3. Optimal solo play would probably get you a consistent 2x3. In order to do the tridolon fast and consistently, you need at least one teammate. Volt + Trinity is SO much better than solo Volt. You get 100% consistency as lures will never die, and double both DPS aspects.

Then, you have the PT orb. Just use Chroma lul. But on a more serious note, when fighting the PT orb there's no burden weighing on you when you go solo, unlike the tridolon. All you need is survivability, which literally every high level thing requires, and DPS, which you don't need so much it's burdensome, as there is no punishment for going too slow, aside from the incredibly generous timer at the last phase. Aside from that, there is the the elemental cycling system, to which having varied elements of your guns is sufficient.

Basically what I'm saying is that the burden you undertake doing the tridolon is so much higher than the PT orb, as there are actual roles that no single player can fulfill all at once, and punishment for not fulfilling all of the roles. The PT orb is much simpler, as all it entails is "don't die, and put damage numbers into the big guy".

In case you didn't know, if you don't destroy the reinforcement beacons, you'll get the actually annoying enemies, like combas and nullifier ospreys. A lot of people don't seem to realize that. In any case, I truly wonder what the logic is in the Eidolons somehow being more solo friendly than the PT orb. I'd go so far as to say the Teralyst by itself is less solo friendly than the PT orb, and that's after I've optimized doing the Teralyst solo.

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There is plenty of meta for orb fights but people just ignore it in pugs.

Tho i agree on the annoying "night only" aspect of eidolons making them that much more annoying to farm casually. But even without that restriction the best frames are the best frames. For Eidolon and Orb

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