*UPDATED* DE Steve tweet: Melee incremental upgrade phase #1. Melee Rework. New Fx and Melee 2.9 Dev Workshop Friday.

[Loza03]

42 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

But I do know better than @Gurpgork....That's not so much elitist as it is a fact that even they have admitted to.

Why should I take advice from someone who is obviously ignorant on the subject?

Better yet...Why would you?

Do you also take tax advice from the kid sacking your groceries?

Funnily enough, I actually agree with you. Not on blocking - there's no way to determine any kind of greater experience here, nor is there any nuance to blocking for any experience to matter - but in general, if one person has greater experience than another, especially if that disparity is significant and meaningful, they should hold greater clout and not get lectured by the less experienced. I've come to that through discussions with friends who have greater experience in subjects than me.

Here's the thing though. I remember you and me being in a similar situation in December. Where greater experience could be and was determined. And in that situation you came up orders of magnitude short. Yet, then, you adopted Huginthecrow's philosophy - that I, having 1k hours on Limbo and using that to defend my decisions was unreasonable and didn't hold any water.

tl;dr of this for those who don't want to read a separate thread for context - Padre derailed a topic to try and morally harangue me over things that they hadn't experienced. I gave an example that involved Limbo, banish, and animations getting cancelled. Padre disagreed, we debated, and when I brought up our difference in playtime to support my, they accused me of holding my playtime over them when it wasn't pertinent to the point and that I was overblowing the skills involved the situation. Basically - the same thing Huginthecrow is talking about.

Was everything I did in that thread right? Probably not. Most notably, I might have misjudged the skill involved in that situation myself, and might well be just as guilty of the same thing that Padre is. I don't think I did, but people reading this can come to their own conclusions. But that's besides the reason I bring this up, and getting into it in detail will just derail this thread too. The point that I want to make here is this:

Padre has once again demonstrated that they are willing to make a complete 180 on their opinions, as the roles have been reversed between these two threads and their opinion with it. If they're willing to do that, then no points can meaningfully made, because any point made to refute one point can be invalidated by such a shift. From there, no meaningful conclusion can be reached.

This isn't going anywhere except misery, so I'm stopping this now.

Padre, I'm not continuing this conversation with you. 

[METAHUMVN]

On 2019-02-14 at 7:46 PM, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

Can't say I'm a fan. I much prefer distinct gun/melee modes, especially because I'm not a fan of Warframe's gun mechanics at all, and I prefer the ability to bind melee attack to left mouse. I guess I could always rebind fire to a different key. While it's a step forward for guns and quick melee, it's a step backwards for "sword alone" gameplay imo.

Also, that's not a new animation. The running animation for the legs is the same old animation from 2012, and arm stance (for holding the sword) was changed with Fortuna.

I totally agree. I'm going to miss that feeling of "aiming" while holding melee...and that feeling that once I full equip melee, I'm like in another mode. TBH I'm feeling concerned about these changes...but I guess, changes come and go, it's always been like this in Warframe...

Edited February 19, 2019 by METAHUMVN

[Rakosta_Kai]

5 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

Ok, this is getting really embarassing (for you).

We are talking about blocking, you do realize that? You picked wrong thing to show off your elite gaming skillz with.

Do you seriously think anybody is impressed or thinks better of you that you supposedly mastered the ability to press a single button?

You keep berating your opponents saying they don't get it. YOU DON'T GET IT. You don't get that nobody gives a single damn about your made up "skillful blocking".

It doesn't exist. There is no skill in blocking, no "depth" you keep trying to hold on to.

I understand that sometimes we make up things to make ourselves feel better, but here you are using that to also look down on others.

And that is something I can't let you do consequence-free. That's why I'm breaking your imaginary feel-good bubble publicly.

Get over yourself.

We actually aren't talking about blocking...

Manual Blocking is being removed for Automated Blocking...DE is doing that and has given no member of the playerbase a say on the matter.

It is what it is.

The new setup will either fly or flop on its' own merits...The best anyone can do is remain open minded when it releases

What we are talking about is "why" they removed it.

Make sure you follow what I say next very closely please... I don't give a crap what you think on that point if you don't know how to use the system as it is.

• That's not elitist
• That's not elite gaming skillz
• That ain't even a mastery I can think of.

What you have to say is irrelevant if you don't know what the frack you are talking about.

What I do care about is that people who don't dig the change as stated being argued down because they don't dig the change as stated.

...Especially when they are being argued down by a bunch of fracking idiots who spout pages of bullcrap to cover the fact that they know nothing to begin with.

As such, it has nothing to do with what you said or think you've said.

And truthfully? I've been insulted better by people I actually respect on this forum and I don't know who in the heck you even are.

Take a seat "bruh". 

 

[HugintheCrow]

2 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

I've been insulted better by people

I'm not insulting you. I'm stating that you are insulting people to feel better about yourself. That's a big difference.

I'm not gonna adress the rest, because it seems you think I'm arguing with you, and so you keep blabbing about stuff I don't care about.

I'm NOT arguing with you. Not about blocking, not about blocking changes.

I'm telling you you need to stop with the high horse attitude. That's it. Of course, you could continue, but that would only show your inablity to get over yourself.

Be my guest, if you want.

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Funnily enough, I actually agree with you. Not on blocking - there's no way to determine any kind of greater experience here, nor is there any nuance to blocking for any experience to matter - but in general, if one person has greater experience than another, especially if that disparity is significant and meaningful, they should hold greater clout and not get lectured by the less experienced. I've come to that through discussions with friends who have greater experience in subjects than me.

Here's the thing though. I remember you and me being in a similar situation in December. Where greater experience could be and was determined. And in that situation you came up orders of magnitude short. Yet, then, you adopted Huginthecrow's philosophy - that I, having 1k hours on Limbo and using that to defend my decisions was unreasonable and didn't hold any water.

Yes, we did...And do you recall some of the things I said to you then?

...Hours of Experience is not necessarily Practice.

...Me recounting my best practices or findings is not me "telling you how to play".

If you freely admit to not using a system properly but want to shout down someone that does...Why should I listen to you?...Why should anyone listen to you?

I am not saying, "Listen to me because I know more.". That was your stance and I have no respect for it.

I am saying, "Stop telling me "how it is" when you, admittedly, don't know "how it is" to begin with.".  Which is the same stance I have held in both threads.

I don't give a crap what you, or anyone else, does in their playtime...I'm tired of having mine dictated to by players without plausible reference.

 

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

tl;dr of this for those who don't want to read a separate thread for context - Padre derailed a topic to try and morally harangue me over things that they hadn't experienced. I gave an example that involved Limbo, banish, and animations getting cancelled. Padre disagreed, we debated, and when I brought up our difference in playtime to support my, they accused me of holding my playtime over them when it wasn't pertinent to the point and that I was overblowing the skills involved the situation. Basically - the same thing Huginthecrow is talking about.

Was everything I did in that thread right? Probably not. Most notably, I might have misjudged the skill involved in that situation myself, and might well be just as guilty of the same thing that Padre is. I don't think I did, but people reading this can come to their own conclusions. But that's besides the reason I bring this up, and getting into it in detail will just derail this thread too. The point that I want to make here is this:

Padre has once again demonstrated that they are willing to make a complete 180 on their opinions, as the roles have been reversed between these two threads and their opinion with it. If they're willing to do that, then no points can meaningfully made, because any point made to refute one point can be invalidated by such a shift. From there, no meaningful conclusion can be reached.

This isn't going anywhere except misery, so I'm stopping this now.

Padre, I'm not continuing this conversation with you. 

Did I? Or did you get your feelings hurt on your quest to lobby for super armor?...Much like I'd imagine they are now.

Only to have you opt to become contentious and engage in a debate instead...again.

So much so, in fact, that Mods had to go in and edit some of your nastier comments.

 

What's funny about this one though is that you already got what you wanted...Manual Blocking is being traded for Automatic Blocking

It is what is is and the new setup will either fly or flop on it's own merits...Which I have said many times now.

 

That's literally the best thing you can ask of anyone who prefers the current combat style...Nope, you still need to argue though.

Much like this thread, the one you linked, and another about Ninja...You just don't know when to stop. 

You talk about "putting words in your mouth"?...

"Blocking is only good for posing.".

"Blocking is of limited value in the game now.".

"Blocking will be just as inconsistent in the new system as it is now.".

"I use and will miss Blocking.".

All comments from you...And one of them is definitely not like the others.

I don't think I have to "put words in your mouth"...In fact, I doubt any more would fit. In truth, it sounds like you have enough for two players rolling around in there now.

Now you could be either of both of those players and I wouldn't give a crap provided that either or both of those people weren't harassing others for not being excited about the changes.

The changes will need to sell themselves.

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, HugintheCrow said:

I'm not insulting you. I'm stating that you are insulting people to feel better about yourself. That's a big difference.

I'm not gonna adress the rest, because it seems you think I'm arguing with you, and so you keep blabbing about stuff I don't care about.

I'm NOT arguing with you. Not about blocking, not about blocking changes.

I'm telling you you need to stop with the high horse attitude. That's it. Of course, you could continue, but that would only show your inablity to get over yourself.

Be my guest, if you want.

Auto blocking could just as easily have been a QoL toggle but instead, per so many in this thread, it needed to be removed.

The problem, in this case, was that most of those doing the talking didn't actually use it to begin with.

There's absolutely no good reason to have an argument with someone who, admittedly, does not use the system now and has no plans on doing so.

That's not an insult...That's just common sense.

That has absolutely nothing to do with @Gurpgork... I don't know them anymore than I know you. They are probably awesome in missions playing their way.

...Their opinion should not dictate my playstyle though and I have no interest in advice to that effect.

That's happened enough times in this game, to date, that I would just prefer to not engage altogether these days.

 

If that's mean, I genuinely apologize... Because that's not the intent.

 

Here's the thing...

There's nothing you, I, or them can do to stop that change. DE seems pretty chuffed with it so it really just "is what it is" at this point.

All that's left is me, and those like me, either getting with the program or choosing to not.

As such, I don't need or want someone's $.02 on a subject they, admittedly, have little to no perspective on to begin with and manages to effect nothing more than what amounts to gloating.

I don't want to read comments to me directly about why it should be gone because they didn't use it, or saw no value in it.

Again...Common sense.

If something so basic puts me on a "high horse" then the game has gone to the dogs already...Because that horse would be roughly the size of a Shetland Pony.

 

Now, you are free to continue the insults and whatever...Like I said, I've been insulted by better. 

Have a blast concocting fanciful stories in your head about my elitism and etc.

Please do continue to assume that I am mean to others to make myself feel better.

Have a party!  If it makes you feel better...run with it.

[HugintheCrow]

19 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Auto blocking could just as easily have been a QoL toggle but instead, per so many in this thread, it needed to be removed.

You keep misunderstanding my point. I'm not here to argue with you whether or not blocking needs to be removed.

Fun fact: I'd rather they didn't remove/automate it. In fact I feel Melee 3.0 is more of Melee 1.5 if anything (as in we're DEvolving in many ways).

The only thing I like about the changes is the combos not being "le stuck in Geoff's animation fantasies for 5 years everytime you press a button".

My point was that your tone was way too "high horse".

 

23 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

If that's mean, I genuinely apologize... Because that's not the intent.

And you get my respect for this. As I said, if you can accept that your tone was off, I'm actually kind of agreeing with you on this thread's issue.

[OniDax]

53 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

Fun fact: I'd rather they didn't remove/automate it. In fact I feel Melee 3.0 is more of Melee 1.5 if anything (as in we're DEvolving in many ways).

The only thing I like about the changes is the combos not being "le stuck in Geoff's animation fantasies for 5 years everytime you press a button".

This is how I feel as well.

[chainchompguy3]

57 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Auto blocking could just as easily have been a QoL toggle but instead, per so many in this thread, it needed to be removed.

The problem, in this case, was that most of those doing the talking didn't actually use it to begin with.

There's absolutely no good reason to have an argument with someone who, admittedly, does not use the system now and has no plans on doing so.

I'm a bit confused by these statements, would you mind clarifying?

 

I've been skimming over this thread, looking to gauge other people's feedback on the changes.

I took particular interest in your back and forth with the others in this thread, but kept failing to see a clear vision of your side of the argument, and no one else seemed to be asking you to clarify it.

 

What constitutes "Using the block function"?

When you spoke with GurpGork, you condemned them for "Button-mashing" because they only used the mechanic constantly.

What is the alternative?

My understanding of the Block mechanic is that it is a conal Damage reduction that can be raised or lowered without penalty, it is tied with Aim-gliding, and it can parry if timed correctly.

What is the "Not-zombie way" to use Blocking?

The only criteria you've implied so far is to "Not just use it constantly", but I cannot understand that being terribly important, as there is no existing penalty for having block raised constantly, as opposed to only some of the time.

 

You DID post a criticism list as to why the zombie way was WRONG, but....

Quote

On ‎2019‎-‎02‎-‎17 at 1:43 PM, Gurpgork said:

This isn’t like other games where blocking is laden with restrictions on blocking (through resource restrictions and/or movement penalties) and enemies typically have telegraphed attacks. Rooms are full of enemies tha attack untelegraphed. Blocking allows mostly full movement. You’re getting attacked constantly and you can block constantly. So it mostly boils down to blocking unless you’re attacking, in which case holding RMB is a good idea anyway because of block combos. 

No it isn't...

It's a dumb way of using the feature for a few reasons.

1. Blocking done this way has a tendency to stop working outright even if the animation says it's still active.
2. It locks you out of potential parries.
3. Used this way, you create reliance on it as opposed to dodge functions.
4.  The effect is not equal for all melee weapons.

As such, it's a literal "zero thought" way of using the feature.

1: isn't that just a bug? a bug that can be counter-acted by the player by just occasionally double-checking that their guard is actually up?

2: isn't going for parries a more (counter)offensive tool, as opposed to a defensive one? If someone wants to use their melee for Defense, and their other options for (counter)Offense, I'd say that's a difference of playstyle, not difference of brain-use...

3: This seems to kind of make some bad assumptions about the player in question, assuming that they would Only block, and not dodge, despite neither of those functions excluding the use of the other. And there is also the distinction between "Relying on a tool you intended to use" and "Over-relying on a single tool".

4: I fail to see how this has any relevance to whether or not someone should block for an extended period of time. Even the weakest blocking melee weapons still offer a Net-gain of Damage reduction.

 

so I don't see how the "Zombie way" is wrong, and I don't see what the "Not-zombie way" is.

 

 

 

And I guess to make a slightly more recently-relevant statement...

I appreciate that you realized how far down the rabbit-hole you went, and decided to get back to your initial argument of "DE is changing it without any player input, it has potential to be quite good or quite bad".

I do not, however, appreciate that you framed this return-to-foundation as "Everyone else missed my point, I'll restate it".

I'd say it's very clear that you did, in fact, participate in the argument over whether or not the blocking SHOULD be changed, and thus others responding to you through such a lens is not wrong of them in the slightest.

[Rakosta_Kai]

21 hours ago, HugintheCrow said:

Fun fact: I'd rather they didn't remove/automate it. In fact I feel Melee 3.0 is more of Melee 1.5 if anything (as in we're DEvolving in many ways).

The only thing I like about the changes is the combos not being "le stuck in Geoff's animation fantasies for 5 years everytime you press a button".

Mostly agree with you...Except about the animations.

I probably should have named this toon Sephiroth as I tend to appreciate cutscene attacks every once in a while. 

22 hours ago, HugintheCrow said:

You keep misunderstanding my point. I'm not here to argue with you whether or not blocking needs to be removed.

I never thought you were...I explained why what you see as "High Horsed" was just me being candid and endeavoring to cut what I see as nonsense off early.

That said, when someone I don't know is outright telling me to "take it down a notch"... I'm probably being harsh.

Honest is always my intent...But hurtful isn't.

22 hours ago, chainchompguy3 said:

I'm a bit confused by these statements, would you mind clarifying?

Put simply? I do not care to listen to False Cause arguments in favor of removing the mechanic merely because they didn't use it or saw no value in it.

There's no discussion to be had on the matter because nothing that gets said will be either true or productive... But it would definitely be divisive.

Absent that, I'm not certain what clarity you require Tenno...The comment is pretty explicit.

20 hours ago, chainchompguy3 said:

so I don't see how the "Zombie way" is wrong,

Wrong is subjective tbh (actually I believe I called it dumb..but that's semantics).  If you only want the minimum from it... then it's not wrong.

As such, I don't think that it is, necessarily wrong, dependent on your expectations and playstyle. As I noted in the posts you quoted, There are many playstyles and no one should dictate to the others.

In regard to Block's removal? That is DE's decision and "It is what it is"...I would vastly prefer not having that conflated into, "They did it because it sucked.", which is what seems to be the trending opinion in this thread thus far.

As I have noted, the new setup will either fly or flop on it's own...So what I don't want to hear is causal arguments asserting "something needed to be removed... because X"...It's a bullcrap argument that can't help but be divisive.

About the only decent reason posted as to why Block got removed and made automatic is Button Bloat at this point imo.  

20 hours ago, chainchompguy3 said:

and I don't see what the "Not-zombie way" is.

The "not-zombie" way would actually be choosing to not hug the Block button constantly.

It opens you up to getting more reliable parries. Likewise, It also opens you up to doing more combo types with more weapons.

Melee, just like every other facet of this game, is exactly what you make it...I prefer mine to be as engaging as possible.

...If I didn't, I could just slide attack all day long instead.

 

20 hours ago, chainchompguy3 said:

I appreciate that you realized how far down the rabbit-hole you went, and decided to get back to your initial argument of "DE is changing it without any player input, it has potential to be quite good or quite bad".

I never left that stance to begin with... 3/4ths of my posts in this thread note an intent to remain open-minded about the changes and an expectation that the new setup will need to sell itself...How can there be a "return to form" when I never left it to begin with?

Please don't conflate my choosing to poke holes in false cause stances to opting to being close-minded about the incoming system...They are not the same.

Open-minded is the best I can offer based on the direction it's all headed and DE really couldn't ask for anything more, given the circumstances, tbh.

At the end of the day...My $20-30 monthly for gaming is going somewhere and I'd prefer it be here...But it could just as easily go to Anthem, it's micro-transations, or toward buying that sweet bike in the FFXIV store though instead. 

The only reason why I have softened tone was because @HugintheCrow pointed out that I was being abrasive and that, basically, my message was getting devoured by my delivery.

While I don't know that Tenno any more than I know you... They have absolutely no reason to be dishonest on the matter and it's foolish to discard relevant advice.

Being abrasive or hurtful kills useful discourse. 

That said, don't mistake what I apologized for...My delivery.

My stance hasn't changed and won't.

20 hours ago, chainchompguy3 said:

I do not, however, appreciate that you framed this return-to-foundation as "Everyone else missed my point, I'll restate it".

I never left that foundation to begin with...and in searching my own comments, I can't find one that specifically matches what you've noted here.

Please feel free to link that.

20 hours ago, chainchompguy3 said:

I'd say it's very clear that you did, in fact, participate in the argument over whether or not the blocking SHOULD be changed, and thus others responding to you through such a lens is not wrong of them in the slightest.

I wouldn't say that was very clear at all...

DE has already noted they are removing it. I can't, and won't, gainsay them any more than you can. I know better than most what a monumental waste of time that is...I've given up on that logic.

Anyone who actually enjoys the manual version will disagree with it and anyone who doesn't, or sees little value in it,  will be all for it.

...That's not a debate insomuch as it is a perspective.

As such, there is no argument regarding whether or not it should be changed... differing opinions will obviously vary.

That is...Until every False Cause argument in this thread is allowed to create a brand new question...The question then becomes why DE has favored one preference over another.

Because it's the question a great deal of this loose commentary supporting the change in this thread has created imo. Evidence to the point of you even asking about "should" to begin with.

Do you think that should be the question? ...I don't.

How you conclude that I am arguing that point even though...

• One of the very first things I said in this post ended with me reminding the poster "it could be argued in both directions".
• Easily half of my posts note being tired of seeing folks not excited about the changes being harrassed about it
• One of them notes that some of the comments seem like gloating
• Most of them note that the new system "will fly or flop on it's own so stop trying to sell it".
• I repeatedly bring up the aspect of false cause. 

I'd say my intent has been very clear in my posts to date on the matter.

How you chose to decipher and characterize them is your business though.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

im unsure about this "auto block"  

as we were told block would become channeling at a prior date meaning all channel /block mods fell together , now with block ability gone as an auto how will these be implemented

how will this effect life strike and or how will we implement it ?

not to mention the empowered mode they showed 

 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Some exalted getting love too. It's pretty, but the enemy interaction when being struck needs work. Oh and apparently Steve is now pregnant. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

6 hours ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

how will this effect life strike and or how will we implement it ?

Yup, I'm curious too.

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

Yup, I'm curious too.

Won't bother my gameplay as I use Healing Return anyway.  😄

 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

Won't bother my gameplay as I use Healing Return anyway.  😄

 

I mean I use elevate but still. 😁 Really wanna see how all this is gonna flow. 

[(PSN)Shadow_Of_Hunhow]

I'm not too happy about the fire button bringing back to gun, my quick melee is on O, then while I equip my melee attack is on the right trigger and channeling is on O..

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

 

17 hours ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

Some exalted getting love too. It's pretty, but the enemy interaction when being struck needs work. Oh and apparently Steve is now pregnant. 

seems to show just generic exalted getting the melee 3.0 strike capability 

17 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Won't bother my gameplay as I use Healing Return anyway.  😄

 

 

HR is good for no energy builds , but ive found on rage , lifestrike (or hunter adrenaline) frame builds its a better quick save  

its good on saryn  or lots of status builds with stat duration , but even then the minor energy loss more then makes up for the hp return imo 

there is also wings of purity as an example so maybe life strike will get something like that innate damage lifestrike 

[GrimAtrament]

question  how will this affect things that rely on blocks. like my favorite weapon class sword and board?

or the Steel Miranda trident?

or that taunt mod.

other then that I am so glad we will be able to seamlessly switch between melee and gun, but i have a question.

will we be able to use excal, baruuk, valkyr, wukong's exalted melee and normal guns at the same time? wouldn't that be a straight up buff for those frames?

also

will future phase let us affect enemies air time with the slam? say with mods?

so you can defectively have a slow mo moment of shooting all the upended enemies? 

in short