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*UPDATED* DE Steve tweet: Melee incremental upgrade phase #1. Melee Rework. New Fx and Melee 2.9 Dev Workshop Friday.


(XBOX)YoungGunn82
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4 minutes ago, Urlan said:

Well, they had boiled it down to two combo last time, with a lunge attack started by using block + attack at the same time; doesn't seem like that is still intended I would figure, and can't do back attack due to how I don't usually see DE using locked camera while using melee, and without that, back is forward and forward back you know? Forward and stand still had combo in the last shown example though. Maybe they will tie in using heavy strike to the combos instead?

That's actually a pretty good point. If they're removing blocking as a bindable action, then what'll happen to that idea of block+attack being used for the stance's lunge attack. 

I don't know what you mean by "don't usually see DE using locked camera while using melee", it looks to me like they usually do. In fact, there've been many situations in the game where they don't/didn't pay attention to the options they give us, like how "Hold Back" combos currently work. For us who don't use "Align Melee to Camera", that means we have to attack blindly behind us for those combos. 

At any rate, at least they're doing this rework in increments, so if it really turns out awful or at least worse than what we have now, it'll be easier to roll back. Because I am pretty concerned about what they'll do to block, and if they're going to go full "hold this direction to do this combo", because I hate that crap. Doesn't work at all in this game if you don't have your settings configured around it, and at that point, just don't give me the option to configure. Take away the ability to uncheck Align Melee to Camera if you really want, just don't forget about the people who don't play at the damn stock Game/Control settings. Because they have a history of doing that.

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6 minutes ago, so_many_watermelons said:

You're not paying attention.

The "probably" in that bolded sentence is not for the holding block part, but for the second half of the sentence, as in "they probably, hopefully will not actually remove those combos themselves." You realize that the combo animations/attacks do not at all have to be tied in with their current button combos? Any currently existing "hold block" combo doesn't have to be removed together with blocking in general. They can be rebound to different button combos entirely. 

As for how they can be refitted, that's up to DE. But I imagine they're thinking ahead of that.

  Reveal hidden contents

Hopefully.

 

I'm not referring to those particular combos getting removed, I'm talking about the total number of combos. They could for example remove the forward-key combo in a current stance and map the hold block combo to it. They have mentioned that they don't want for the hold or pause combo mechanics to be there, so they are streamlining everything at a base level. Something has to give since that only leaves room for directional input and no directional input combos when even the block button is removed as a starting point.

Sure there could be variations such as starting neutral, starting forward, or going from neutral to forward or forward to neutral. That would solve the problem, but that's assuming the end goal is not to streamline everything to extreme simplicity.

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7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I'm not referring to those particular combos getting removed, I'm talking about the total number of combos. They could for example remove the forward-key combo in a current stance and map the hold block combo to it. They have mentioned that they don't want for the hold or pause combo mechanics to be there, so they are streamlining everything at a base level. Something has to give since that only leaves room for directional input and no directional input combos when even the block button is removed as a starting point.

Sure there could be variations such as starting neutral, starting forward, or going from neutral to forward or forward to neutral. That would solve the problem, but that's assuming the end goal is not to streamline everything to extreme simplicity.

I quickly want to apologize if my "you're not paying attention" comment seemed a little aggressive. Wasn't the intention.

Anyways, yeah, I'm concerned about that too, leaving it all for direction input. In my post above, I say that I hate that, because I do. I don't play with Align Melee to Camera, so directional inputs mean "look away from what you're swinging if you want to do this combo". It's terrible.

As for the total number of combos, I can't recall if they had or hadn't brought up the idea of sharing some combo attacks that exist in one stance and putting them into stances that have fewer combos. A lot of the oldest stances are like that, being extremely barebones. And then they tried to 'fix' that with PoE by just maknig new stances that are more complicated than that weapon type's old stances put together. Daggers come to mind there.

I imagine if they do do that, they'll probably give stances that still don't have enough combos even after that brand new combos. 

Edited by so_many_watermelons
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10 hours ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

tenor.gif

DE Steve "Sacrificed at the altar of streamlining... block button! Blocking is now an automatic cone - aim at the attacker and you'll block. There is no separate 'melee mode' with all its separate button meanings. Our goal is to merge the power/gun/blade, to bring them closer."

Spectacular. This is the evolution of core combat that made Warframe great.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this is dropping when it is...wink, wink.

Sometimes you beat an opponent before they even know what’s happening.

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I would like to see this new blocking mechanic in action. Existing autoblock mods are largely terrible because they kick in to interrupt the flow of one’s own actions, so having all melee function as a permanent autoblock using that same implementation would be...bad. Clunky. Aggravating. It would turn Warframe combat into a game of fighting the game’s own mechanics in order to do anything.

 

So, I’ll trust that what’s obvious to players will also be obvious to DE.

 

I’m also going to speculate on whether DE will change how the Vaykor Sydon’s passive works, because right now it is literally useless.

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10 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

if blocking is automatic, whats happening with the likes of Reflex guard to stop being stuck in a block/parry loop, can we still disable the auto-block/parrys so we can actually cut the enemy down?

No. one. knows. All we see is what Steve shows and  none of it has shown blocking against enemies. But the whole new system has been built around all the moves interrupting seemlesly into new movements so I doubt anything of the current systems "feel" will be carried over and it's likely nothing what many are thinking in their head. 

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1 minute ago, Firetempest said:

No. one. knows. All we see is what Steve shows and  none of it has shown blocking against enemies. But the whole new system has been built around all the moves interrupting seemlesly into new movements so I doubt anything of the current systems "feel" will be carried over and it's likely nothing what many are thinking in their head. 

i got the impression the new system was based around assisting console owners limited/rubbish control method, all good for them and PC owners provided it doesnt feel like an obvious dumbed down tradeoff, feels a bit liek when we lost our better old/starchart and menu system and gained a console friendly nested menu system with my escape button getting more wear and tear than ever before.

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I am not sure if this is the way the melee should go. I prefer the quick meele over the chanelling and comboing because the combos mainly slows the gameplay and on grineer, corpus, orokin enemies largely useless because they can one shot you in distance. The shield gating that can helps a bit on this but the autoblock and instant weapon change just seems unattractive and bad. The current autoblocking mod makes the game flow broken because if you wish to shot someone and the block works then interupt your first action. 

For me the blocking is not missing at all and instead blocking we could improve the evasion rate or deflection which basically helps a lot in combat. The blocking only works well if you can control and have an acceptable degree " in this case cone " which deflect the incoming damage 80-90%. The auto blocking is something not really wanted and if this interupt the gameplay then it should be removed.

The weapon changing animations are okay and I personally not feel these needs to be changed at all because it takes 1-2 sec max and that 1-2 sec is not drastic and you can also go cover if you want avoid the enemies bullets.

If they does not touch the quick meele then I am fine with it because I like to smash the E button " for me the E is the set one ".

We will see anyway how this will plays out but I am pessimistic with this change and instead they could buff meele weapons which needs and speed up the chanelling combos and rework those which interupts the flow.

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Tbh I’m very wary about this.

If I’m going to block, I’d like to block decisively and within my discretion. Having an auto-block means that blocking will be outside your control. Certain things that you want to do by your own command will be removed, like attempting to taunt now with Guardian Derision or aimglide blocking with your melee when you have your melee drawn.

I play a lot of Toxic Lash Saryn. I exercise the frontal block liberally for the DR and use aimglide block with melee liberally to block bullets in midair.

I’m also concerned about how gap closers will be executed.

The way I see it, this may have been a missed opportunity to tie the Block feature with the Zoom/ADS keybind that could link both gunplay and melee appropriately. Otherwise the proposition just feels more inclined toward to gunplay keybinds with a side of melee if ADSing will primarily swap to your firearm, at least that’s the intent Steve is explaining with this tweet.

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3 hours ago, Urlan said:

The only one I can think of converts it into Direct input, which sadly won't be supported for such controllers much longer so I don't figure that one at least will be valid. MS has been phasing that back for a while now, Xinput and all that being what they like. Still, I will have to give it more look-see, could be that someone has already solved part of the issue for those premium controllers at least.

The Xbox one controllers and the Elite are direct input.  They don't use the same config tool that the 360 controllers used.  

edit:  I found the site for the extra tool. https://www.rewasd.com/

Edited by DatDarkOne
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18 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

The Xbox one controllers and the Elite are direct input.  They don't use the same config tool that the 360 controllers used.  

Direct Input was the older control scheme used prior to the more modern Xbox 360 controllers while Xinput was introduced with XP service pack 1 and early Vista. It is still supported in as a legacy feature however. This might be useful:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/xinput/xinput-and-directinput

I would be interested though if Xbox One Elites could be configured in such a manner though.

Will have to have to give the rwasd thing a look later.

Edited by Urlan
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13 hours ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

I'm one of the few who doesn't like this new change at all. But it's so obvious most of these people here and on Twitter rarely equip their melee. They didn't even realize that animation in the video was old. That's how little they pull out their melee weapons. I don't like spamming E to swing my melee weapon, and I don't like using guns in Warframe, mainly because I'm use to shooters where your gun is always pointed forward. I also don't like many of Warframe's guns. I'm definitely one of those players that prefers a dedicated melee mode. But I can't say I'm surprised. Ever since Reb mentioned changing quick melee, I had a suspicion that they were basically reworking melee around quick melee and gun play. And that's basically what this is.

Similar boat.

I prefer my secondaries over my primaries and interplay with my melee and low order powers (1,2,& 3's) above all and I am not digging what I am hearing so far.

It won't be the first time DE announced something I wasn't diggin' on initially and they typically turn out to be not completely horrible, after a bit of iteration, so I am going to give this one the benefit of the doubt.

It might be dope.

It might be vapid and make me stop playing altogether.

I'm sure DE would take either as a win in my case🤣

My only hesitation is that with Anthem coming(or here if you have Origin) and the FFXIV expansion coming this summer it seems like a bad time, to me,  to go changing the recipe too much.

giphy.gif

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I'm going to hold of judgement on anything before I actually get to try it out. I am liking quite many things I see but there are SOME things that worry me. The blocking thing is possibly one but very minor. I also wonder if the pistol+glaive combo system is going to be tweaked or simply removed. I fear it's the later but... time will tell. I have been using that mode extensively as of late and I find it very fun and would be dismayed to see it go the way of the dodo. 

My other and somewhat ironic issue is that the weapon swap seems too fast. It feels... cheap. Again, I can't say that with all certainty, but what I see from the clips basically means that we sort of warp weapons from one to the other. It takes away some of that "weight" a weapon has. Weird as it sounds. I mean, this is also something that makes the AW weapons feel "weighty" in ground combat IS that equip animation. Now clearly it's a bit excessive or otherwise needs some sort of shield to balance out the obsenely long animation lock time, but the point stands. When our standard weapons just ZIP into our hands with no clear, short animation of our frames actually switching to them, then they feel "cheap" or in the worst case like some kind of dev-build where no one bothered to hook up weapon switch animations and just shipped it out of blatant laziness. 

Again, I can say more about my own opinions when I actually get to try it. 

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3 hours ago, Urlan said:

Direct Input was the older control scheme used prior to the more modern Xbox 360 controllers while Xinput was introduced with XP service pack 1 and early Vista. It is still supported in as a legacy feature however. This might be useful:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/xinput/xinput-and-directinput

I would be interested though if Xbox One Elites could be configured in such a manner though.

Will have to have to give the rwasd thing a look later.

The elites native config tool gives a good bit of options for everything except giving the paddles their own unique assignment.  It gives options on how to customize the way the analogs behave.  

I only recommend the rwasd tool if you need to give the paddles their own unique assignments.  Otherwise, the default Elite tool works in most cases very well.  

edit:  I will have to wait and see of the melee changes will effect my button config in a negative way before I can say more on this. 

Edited by DatDarkOne
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2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

The elites native config tool gives a good bit of options for everything except giving the paddles their own unique assignment.  It gives options on how to customize the way the analogs behave.  

I only recommend the rwasd tool if you need to give the paddles their own unique assignments.  Otherwise, the default Elite tool works in most cases very well.  

edit:  I will have to wait and see of the melee changes will effect my button config in a negative way before I can say more on this. 

Yeah, I feel you there. In this case, it would need the paddles to be individual buttons of their own; this seems like it would need more buttons for this melee 3.0 to work.

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4 minutes ago, Urlan said:

Yeah, I feel you there. In this case, it would need the paddles to be individual buttons of their own; this seems like it would need more buttons for this melee 3.0 to work.

I agree and hope they don't completely remove the option to have a block button.  I'm not much of a fan of the auto-block idea.  

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6 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I agree and hope they don't completely remove the option to have a block button.  I'm not much of a fan of the auto-block idea.  

Same! Either way, I guess we will have to see, though I guess I will have to get an extension cable for my keyboard to reach the couch just in case!

Edited by Urlan
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Just now, Urlan said:

Same! Either way, I guess we will have to see, though I guess I will have to get an extension cable for my keyboard to reach the coach just in case!

Update:  Turns out i was half correct.  Both Xbox one and 360 controllers both support direct input and Xinout.  It's the Xinout that can be harder to configure sometimes.  😁 

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16 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Update:  Turns out i was half correct.  Both Xbox one and 360 controllers both support direct input and Xinout.  It's the Xinout that can be harder to configure sometimes.  😁 

Yeah, the triggers act a bit funky, but it can work. I don't figure they will going forward what with Microsoft wanting to depreciate their support for the tech, but either way, hopefully stuff like Steam's controller work recently helps more controllers become compatible for more players going forward.

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well i hate the melee system as a whole and nothing they're proposing about changes going forward makes it interesting to me, BUT!

this probably also means I'll be able to just dagger finisher enemies with Ivara's exalted bow out! So I guess this'll be a net positive for me in the end since I've got nothing to lose!

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7 hours ago, Firetempest said:

No. one. knows. All we see is what Steve shows and  none of it has shown blocking against enemies. But the whole new system has been built around all the moves interrupting seemlesly into new movements so I doubt anything of the current systems "feel" will be carried over and it's likely nothing what many are thinking in their head. 

hmm not exactly they won't removed the parry mod for it.  To be honest they probably going boost it or change it a bit just actives the time of chance parry auto that what they would think for I think what they thinking of.  It would be funny if they actually did go with that idea, auto parry timing the next gen of over power.

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