SilentMobius Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Just now, BornWithTeeth said: I think that the mode is not doomed to be dead on arrival, I genuinely think that enough people would opt in to try it. And! I think that enough people would stay opted in for the mode to be a sustainable niche. Scott disagrees, and I agree with Scott, not on the end effect of disallowing an opt-out though, but thankfully the opt-out is confirmed. It's hard enough finding teams without people who just want to mess up your game, let alone giving them an actual tool to do it. I'll be opted out, and I fully expect the majority of the playerbase to do similar. Save for the few who: Set up a connection conditioner to ensure that any invading stalker is lagged to hell and guaranteed to lose (which is trivial to do) Trade kills on some external website to farm whatever rewards are offered. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentMobius Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said: “PvE players: ideally, PvP is not some kind of personal pissing match. Remember that, it’s literally not personal, and you’re talking to folks who just enjoy a bit of conflict and competition.” If they're trying to jam something into my gameplay that strips away the game I want to play for the game they want to play, then yeah, it's super personal already. I'm mean I've been where you are right now, being moderate and enjoying a little PvP here and there when it's well implemented. Maybe 15 years ago, but slowly but surely people playing PvP ruined that game for me, and every multiplayer game I've played since, so no, I'm all out of balance and consideration now. Edited February 7, 2019 by SilentMobius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornWithTeeth Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 minute ago, SilentMobius said: If they're trying to jam something into my gameplay that strips away the game I want to play for the game they want to play, then yeah, it's super personal already. The point where it becomes personal and nasty is where you say “No thanks, don’t wanna play” and they freak out and start yelling that you’re a carebear coward pansy who needs to be shot at for real to be taught a lesson because you don’t know what you really want, you can never know what you really want, so you have to do what I want! That’s...to be honest, a bit sad and concerning and makes me wonder what those people are like offline.* But hey, opt in/out? Solves that right off the bat. *I’m actually quite impressed that I’ve seen almost none of that specific behaviour in this thread, although Chewarette...I’m sorry bud, you’re kinda letting the side down a little on the civility front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Tanta Cinta Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Imagine all the MR 3 pvp gods that are about to dominate when this comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypernaut1 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) What's funny is that OP wasnt even sure if it was improved A.I. or not. So I ask.... What's the difference? Player stalker isn't true PvP. For most, it'll just feel like improved A.I. Edited February 7, 2019 by Hypernaut1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaijuKraid Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, NotDealwithitdog said: i mean they've said there won't be an option to opt out because then everyone would just opt out See, this. I have an issue with this. Forcing something on everyone just because almost no one may end up actually wanting to opt in just sounds... selfish. Sure, it could sound selfish that everyone may end up opting out, but this probably says something about what the Warframe community does and does not want rather than having a majority being forced by something a minority may want. I have no qualms with Stalker Mode if it's opt-in. (Skip this part if you don't care at all about Dark Souls, but honestly I'm bringing up points here I feel are relevant to Warframe. I've put up another bracket to when it becomes fully about Warframe again.) I play Dark Souls. I enjoy Dark Souls. However I'm the sort of person who plays as a Sunbro or as a Blade of the Dark Moon. I like helping people, defending people and such like. (And no, I don't summon people into my games at all.) I also play a lot of Dark Souls offline, because I generally enjoy the games for what they are... mostly. However that's the thing: I can opt out of being online in Dark Souls and opt out of being invaded by human players. NPC Invaders may turn up and, sure, they're not a challenge but I still do them because they can drop items I want. However I don't want what happened with Dark Souls III to happen here either. For those who may not know: Dark Souls I is pretty weighted towards the invader due to fact that there's no real condition to when an Invader can actually invade aside from level. This allows Invaders to be able to use later game stuff to basically troll new players and even deal with people who are generally skilled. In Dark Souls II and III, they changed matchmaking in many different ways between both games. The main thing though is that Invaders don't have to fight enemies at all... though there are exceptions. The problem with Dark Souls III invasion though: It's super weighted against the invader (most of the time). The invader is more likely to get connected to people with multiple allies summoned which means generally that the Invader is most likely to be outnumbered and killed without the invader being much more skillful than the host and the phantoms they summon. Not only this, but invasions in the Souls games also come with rewards when you successfully kill the host meaning if you want rewards, you'll have to learn to be able to deal with gank squads over and over and generally being far better at the game than the host and the phantoms. However I should point out: If an Invader does invade a solo host, they actually have the advantage, not the host. This ends up always creating a debate: What is an invaders role in the whole thing? To many people they're simply an extra challenge for playing online. If you're playing online on Dark Souls and are summoning help, you should expect to also be invaded. Invaders in Dark Souls III are for many people meant to be consequence for playing online with other people. This combined with the fact that enemy health is higher also. However, many invaders feel that it's unfair and feel they should be allowed to invade solo hosts also. (You can, just that it's more weighted to invade Hosts with Friendly Phantoms.) Plus the amount of trolling that can happen with Invaders/Hosts also. If an Invader (Even V a Solo Host) ends up feeling like they could lose, they start running away and start generally being annoying and nuisance and can force you into a stalemate. I don't care if you can out play an Invader on a buttress while Silver Knights are shooting at you and one wrong mistake ends up as death. it's still annoying as hell to then do that climb and then have to fight around both an invader and Silver Knights. Also it's very annoying when they hide behind very important NPCs. (Oh how I get annoyed with invaders who hide behind the Giant Blacksmith.) Just to note: If an NPC dies in Dark Souls, they're dead. There's no coming back. When they implemented a feature in DSII to sort of circumvent this, people actually complained about it, talking about if a NPC dies, a player should actually be punished. And finally: in Dark Souls III, there is an item called 'Seed of the Giant Tree.' Getting the item itself is slightly annoying, but the main thing it does is allow the enemies of the world to actually focus and target the Invader. This item was used mercilessly against Invaders obviously, but even more so when you had Hosts + Gank Squads who would then corner Invaders. This item was, however, very useful in a basic 1v1 setting to basically make the Invader play the same game basically as the host. When the Seed of the Giant Tree was nerfed from basically infinite duration to 45 seconds and has annoying spawn conditions to get and you can only hold three of them, the Invader simply has to avoid and run away from you for around 135 seconds. Doesn't seem hard, except that dodging in Dark Souls III is incredibly overpowered in a PVP setting. (Seriously, you can roll forever and not take any damage.) The nerf to the Seed of the Giant Tree was a good nerf versus Hosts/Summons but incredibly awful for solo hosts (Back to Warframe Relevant stuff now if you didn't want to read all the Dark Souls stuff) This is what I feel the problem with Stalker Mode may end up becoming like, if not actually worse. At least Dark Souls is built with the whole invasion mechanic in mind and is a sole reason many people play Dark Souls. If you play Dark Souls, you know you can opt out of the PVP Experience in a game where it's actually balanced around PVP. Hosts and Parties of those who want to opt-out but won't will get annoyed because they're going to be now dealing with some maniac who is bullet jumping everywhere and taking potshots at the party, probably wearing them down enough to actually frustrate them in something they already did not want to be part off. Not only that, but team building may end up changing (for the worst) to be able to deal with Player Stalkers. Stalkers are going to be annoyed because Hosts and Parties are going to find the easiest ways to cheese Stalkers and may end up dying against some groups before being able to do anything of substance. Combine that with the possibility of a Stalker Syndicate and they're going to get even more annoyed when they have a much more challenging and tough time getting the rep needed to climb up the syndicate. So Stalker players will possibly ask for buffs, which will end up annoying even more players in general. It's worse for the stalker because they're locked into the same weapons as well. People saying that we should wait for it to be released: This is very different to releasing Sanctuary Onslaught or Fortuna or something. This is something that is going to affect everyone if there's no opt-in/opt-out. At least many people can wait to actually play SO or Fortuna and wait for many (not all) of the bugs to be ironed out. This is something that may end up being forced on people and will end up causing problems in the future. Many people talk about how Limbo (The Frame) isn't a problem, but the players playing him are the problem. This feature NEEDS to be designed with the idea of players first and what they could end up potentially doing with it. Because we all know: Players will end up trolling, being a nuisance and be downright a-holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentMobius Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 minute ago, KaijuKraid said: See, this. I have an issue with this. It was DE Scott's opinion, it's be confirmed since then (In the DC) that there will be an opt-out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lighthoof Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 So, adding my few cents here. In my opinion, problem with griefing can be solved somewhat easy: 1) Do not allow Stalker to interact with mission objectives\NPCs\Traps and so on 2) Add a despawn timer for Stalker, if he doesn't engage players (like, 30s is reasonable IMHO) Now to the issues of players who don't want PvP in their WF - as mentioned above, restrict interaction between opted out players and Stalker, aswell as restrict interactions with their opted in comrades while the combat with the Stalker lasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)drpunk-yo Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 There's already an opt out, isn't there? Don't get marked 🤷♂️ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rastaban75 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 So... let me get this clear... From now on, if someone teabags the defeated Stalker this is considered against the proper etiquette and even "toxic" because it can be a real person, with feelings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aikatears Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, (PS4)drpunk-yo said: There's already an opt out, isn't there? Don't get marked 🤷♂️ If that how its will be opt out then boss fights are done. If it's a switch or an option that would be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaijuKraid Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 19 minutes ago, SilentMobius said: It was DE Scott's opinion, it's be confirmed since then (In the DC) that there will be an opt-out. Ah, that's awesome. See, strange as it is, if it's opt-out, I may actually opt-in for a while also. Just I want to be able to pick when. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirTobe Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Oh wow, if I got a ducat for every tear in this thread 😄 I wouldn't even call this PvP tbh, it's just one person giving the most often underpowered Stalker some braincells for a few seconds of the mission now and then. If DE wants to be kind to new players they could just have the old AI deal with the first half of the starchart or so, and then let players make things a bit more interesting for the rest. I'm sure they are working on preventing various trolling, keeping the player on the objective of assassination as strictly as possible. Personally I welcome it, and judging by the streams and the few players who have experienced it, everyone is having a blast. It's just what the stalker needs imo. I do however hope they don't mess up the lore with it. Considering it's a separate mode it shouldn't have anything to do with our operator, just a fun minigame on the side for anyone interested, so I think we're good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornWithTeeth Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 PSA for those opting in: Carry a Radiation Critical weapon. Stalker’s armour type is alloy, and if he works like the AI Stalker does then he’s immune to Status effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaotyke Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 11 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said: PSA for those opting in: Carry a Radiation Critical weapon. Stalker’s armour type is alloy, and if he works like the AI Stalker does then he’s immune to Status effects. *Equips Magus Melt + Virtous Surge in a X77 Amp and Dashes 5 times* Operator: I will just leave these here. *fires 3 timed nades* Stalker gets out of Invulnerability: Motherf--- *WAUM! WAUM! WAUM!* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornWithTeeth Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Kaotyke said: *Equips Magus Melt + Virtous Surge in a X77 Amp and Dashes 5 times* Operator: I will just leave these here. *fires 3 timed nades* Stalker gets out of Invulnerability: Motherf--- *WAUM! WAUM! WAUM!* Surely Magus Lockdown does not affect the Stalker. Surely not. Can someone test that please. Because my sides. Gentlemen, my sides will achieve orbit somewhere around Jupiter if that is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Skippy575 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said: The point where it becomes personal and nasty is where you say “No thanks, don’t wanna play” and they freak out and start yelling that you’re a carebear coward pansy who needs to be shot at for real to be taught a lesson because you don’t know what you really want, you can never know what you really want, so you have to do what I want! That’s...to be honest, a bit sad and concerning and makes me wonder what those people are like offline.* But hey, opt in/out? Solves that right off the bat. *I’m actually quite impressed that I’ve seen almost none of that specific behaviour in this thread, although Chewarette...I’m sorry bud, you’re kinda letting the side down a little on the civility front. Hehehe, I know who you're referring to. I've read the other threads you've been on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Silverback73 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Chewarette said: Not chickening, I'm just hating everything that is PvP related, and everyone who will be playing Stalker Mode is probably some loser hoping to get free kills on low MR newcomers, or trolls trying to destroy Defense objectives. And that'll be my very personal way of telling DE they really didn't need to bring PvP in this PvE-only wonderful game that is Warframe. PvP is toxic and some bullS#&$ like that can only bring this game down without bringing anything positive (as you said, it can't even transform Stalker into a challenge). Opt out then. It won’t exist for you. And the game stays the same. 😊 Edit: you will likely have to Opt IN So literally nothing changes for you. Edited February 7, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornWithTeeth Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 @KaijuKraid In Dark Souls’ sister game, Trenchcoat Werewolf Disease Insanity Ninja, the Hunter Whacks is the best and purest weapon, and if you disagree I will fight you over it. With an axe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaijuKraid Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) 45 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said: @KaijuKraid In Dark Souls’ sister game, Trenchcoat Werewolf Disease Insanity Ninja, the Hunter Whacks is the best and purest weapon, and if you disagree I will fight you over it. With an axe. Oh please, anyone using the Hunter Whacks is CLEARLY a noob. You need to git better scrublet. Edited February 7, 2019 by KaijuKraid 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornWithTeeth Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, KaijuKraid said: Oh please, anyone using the Hunter Whacks is CLEARLY a noob. You need to git better scrublet. The purity of the death circle is all. Nothing in the universe can be more satisfying than that charged double crescent of murder launching, impacting right on the enemy’s chin, and flattening them on their ass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Looking forward to disconnecting to ruin their "fun". Host migrations can actually be useful now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornWithTeeth Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said: Looking forward to disconnecting to ruin their "fun". Host migrations can actually be useful now. Mate. Please. Read the room a little. This thread’s really been one of the most civil and friendly Stalker mode topics to date. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune_me Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Honestly the stalker dies with a couple of shots from my operator's amp, so unless they give him some extra defense, I don't really see how it becomes that much worse if it's a player controlling him. I'll still opt out, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatDarkOne Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 8 hours ago, Chewarette said: seems like people were impatient to annoy other players without any consequences This has been the meat of every last stalker topic. 6 hours ago, SilentMobius said: If they're trying to jam something into my gameplay that strips away the game I want to play for the game they want to play, then yeah, it's super personal already. I'm mean I've been where you are right now, being moderate and enjoying a little PvP here and there when it's well implemented. Maybe 15 years ago, but slowly but surely people playing PvP ruined that game for me, and every multiplayer game I've played since, so no, I'm all out of balance and consideration now. This is exactly how I feel and view it also. Every part of this post reflects me and my experiences with PvP going all the way back to when it started in electronic gaming. The people playing PvP have ruined almost every PvP game that I use to love. I'm wondering if the same will happen in Ace Combat 7. Although I kind of doubt it as that game has a very high skill level and learning curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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