rune_me Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, TheSixteenth said: I'd say, the day you differentiate PvP and PvE with AI and player are about to be over in maybe a few years. AlphaStar (AI) beat the S#&$ out of one of the top professional Protos player 5-0 in a Protos vs Protos match in Starcraft 2... Imagine an AI trained to play Stalker. I'd bet you would take the player over Alphaframe anytime soon. Yes, I gave it a name... AI has been able to beat human opponents in various games for decades now. That's hardly news. Even a newbie programmer could write an AI that can't loose a game of tic-tac-toe. Even grandmasters don't stand a chance again modern chess AI's. That however will not change the definition at all. PvP means player vs player. Player vs AI is not PvP, no matter how good the AI is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornWithTeeth Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Just now, rune_me said: AI has been able to beat human opponents in various games for decades now. That's hardly news. Even a newbie programmer could write an AI that can't loose a game of tic-tac-toe. Even grandmasters don't stand a chance again modern chess AI's. That however will not change the definition at all. PvP means player vs player. Player vs AI is not PvP, no matter how good the AI is. You’re running into one of the most fundamental gulfs of understanding here, mate, and it’s rooted in the idea which PvP players seem to have about PvE players, that folks who dislike PvP do not want challenge or difficulty. Let me say it again, for the slow learners and the people in the back: For a huge number of players who avoid PvP, it is purely and simply not about difficulty. It is about wanting to avoid the toxicity and strife which can arise from conflict between human players. Thank you for listening. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentMobius Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 16 minutes ago, TheSixteenth said: I'd say, the day you differentiate PvP and PvE with AI and player are about to be over in maybe a few years. AlphaStar (AI) beat the S#&$ out of one of the top professional Protos player 5-0 in a Protos vs Protos match in Starcraft 2... Difficulty isn't the main reason people avoid PvP, other people are more commonly the reason. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSixteenth Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 il y a 1 minute, SilentMobius a dit : Difficulty isn't the main reason people avoid PvP, other people are more commonly the reason. Then it's alright? I mean, what's the matter with other people? Don't you play in a squad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)GameNerd300 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 If I was playing as Stalker, I'd probably scare the crap outta newer players by just being there, but knowing me, I'd just help them kill a boss and extract lmao. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvid Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 1 minute ago, (XB1)GameNerd300 said: If I was playing as Stalker, I'd probably scare the crap outta newer players by just being there, but knowing me, I'd just help them kill a boss and extract lmao. Stalker can't show up in Assassination missions. Best you could help with would be a miniboss like the Lynx. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Barbarian Posted February 8, 2019 Author Share Posted February 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, (XB1)GameNerd300 said: If I was playing as Stalker, I'd probably scare the crap outta newer players by just being there, but knowing me, I'd just help them kill a boss and extract lmao. I believe you get to choose a node that players are actively playing and get to jump into their mission. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)YoungGunn82 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) I'm sincerely asking, someone help me understand. When the majority of the player base (I assume) plays this game for the PvE. Why waste time and resources on yet another PvP mode in which (I'm certain) the majority of the player base will opt-out of? And will mostly be dead on arrival. Seems like yet another giant waste of time and company resources. Wouldn't time and resources be better spent else where? For example instead of working on a Stalker PvP mode, how bout a Stalker/Acolyte quest/cinematic. Some Stalker lore, example: what happened to the Stalker after second dream? Who knows? Seems like a good opportunity right there. I think at least that would be more constructive for Warframe than yet another PvP mode barley anyone will play. Thoughts? Edited February 8, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uxx0 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Welcome to Warframe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornWithTeeth Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, Joe_Barbarian said: I believe you get to choose a node that players are actively playing and get to jump into their mission. The lobby background/area for Stalker mode is that Uranus tile from the Second Dream cinematic where Stalker accepts his downgrades* from Hunhow, which is pretty neat! *Because they are downgrades. Shadow Stalker is less threatening than old Stalker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornWithTeeth Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Aw dude, for the love of god. This ain’t helpful. Look. The mode’s already been programmed. Someone apparently did it as a side project. So there’s no wasted resources there, it’s already made. The only resources required now are some dev attention to make sure it works and doesn’t have unintended outcomes. Besides...it has been confirmed by a member of DE to be optional. Bam. Entire problem solved. So why not just opt out, not worry about it, and let everyone else play the game they want, because they will not be able to interfere with you either? 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSixteenth Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 I'd probably play Stalker mode and get insta killed 5 times out of 6 before doing anything to them... But I hope it gives nice skins/sigils at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Are not you tired of killing NPCs? Geez 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappie Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said: I'm sincerely asking, someone help me understand. When the majority of the player base (I assume) plays this game for the PvE. Why waste time and resources on yet another PvP mode in which (I'm certain) the majority of the player base will opt-out of? And will mostly be dead on arrival. Seems like yet another giant waste of time and company resources. Wouldn't time and resources be better spent else where? For example instead of working on a Stalker PvP mode, how bout a Stalker/Acolyte quest/cinematic. Some Stalker lore. I think at least that would be more constructive for Warframe than yet another PvP mode barley anyone will play. Thoughts? Because DE isn't made of robots who work only to what some spreadsheet and focus group told them to do. Regardless, you need to look at the overall trajectory of where warframe is headed and ask how did we get there. And stating "wasting" followed by"sincerely" doesn't work BTW. Sorta like saying "no offense" and then you proceed to insult somebody. Edited February 8, 2019 by Chappie1975 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)YoungGunn82 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 1 minute ago, BornWithTeeth said: So why not just opt out, not worry about it, and let everyone else play the game they want, because they will not be able to interfere with you either? Because I love this game. And some of the direction it takes doesn't make any sense. 3 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said: Someone apparently did it as a side project. So there’s no wasted resources there, This is a bit contradictory teeth, I'm sorry.. It's wasted resources. No more no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzolkat Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 My theory is they can't figure out how to feasibly make Stalker's AI smart enough to pose a challenge to end-game players, so they're doing the PvP mode as a means to try and crowdsource it instead. Thinking about it that way, it actually has a lower development cost in the near-term than the AI rewrite that would otherwise be required. However, since a majority of the community is exclusively PVE, the mode may not fare very well in its intended purpose. Although, if the rewards are shiny enough.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabbynaru Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) The mode's been done like, 2 years ago if I'm not misaken, back when Lunaro and other PvP related content was also a focus. They've just been "polishing" it in between making other stuff (aka trying to come up with an idea on how to implement it without really really REALLY annoying people like me who are only here for the PvE). So they've wasted their time 2 years ago, and have been basing their heads on the walls ever since. Edited February 8, 2019 by Gabbynaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loza03 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Because Warframe actually works pretty well in a PvP setting and is surprisingly fun when the players are properly matched up? Seriously, on the occasions where you're not hilariously over the skill and power level of everyone in the room - or vice versa - Conclave can be fast, exciting and a lot of fun. It's just that's there's no matchmaking in Conclave leading to those situations being rare. Also, this could well lead to some very interesting and hilarious scenarios. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Just now, (XB1)RDeschain82 said: This is a bit contradictory teeth, I'm sorry.. It's wasted resources. No more no less. Yep, there will still have to be maintenance done to it after it is implemented that will further take away from areas that would be more beneficial. Frame Fighters is the best example of this. A project that was done as something on the "side" Something that most of the community knew would end up with a lower player activity than even conclave Still requires steady maintenance even though it has even less people playing it than Conclave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSixteenth Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 il y a 1 minute, Sean a dit : Yep, there will still have to be maintenance done to it after it is implemented that will further take away from areas that would be more beneficial. Frame Fighters is the best example of this. A project that was done as something on the "side" Something that most of the community knew would end up with a lower player activity than even conclave Still requires steady maintenance even though it has even less people playing it than Conclave I wish I could play it... But I have too many things to farm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzolkat Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said: For a huge number of players who avoid PvP, it is purely and simply not about difficulty. It is about wanting to avoid the toxicity and strife which can arise from conflict between human players. I don't know about anyone else, but this is exactly why I avoid PvP. Competition tends to bring out the worst in people, and I'm not fond of exposing myself to it. Anonymized PvP with no comms between opponents would remove most of the potential for toxicity, however. It's an experiment I -might- be willing to take a look at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzolkat Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 On 2019-02-07 at 7:46 AM, Joe_Barbarian said: So last night we had a stalker that completely ignored the normal routine of: come in make the magic ball go slap someone in the face. He started to parkour around the map not chasing a player and all 4 of us got the same pop up stalker message. It was unnatural behaviour, it looked like it was player controlled, so unless stalker has finally changed things up I'm suspecting DE is literally playing with us. Fascinating. I suppose I should have known, but I hadn't realized DE was testing Stalker Mode in the wild.. Which raises the technical question of how... partial rollout of support for the mode to public builds while full access is still only on dev build? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSG501 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 I don't mind if they want to add extra stuff (although I'd prefer more normal maps on each planet), I just wish they'd prioritise fixing the damn bugs/issues and/or finish they things they've already started instead of just 'ignoring the problems' and adding in something else. From a personal perspective I see no reason for this to be added (thank god it's optional, at least that's one good thing), I've never been interested in conclave after trying it and seeing how poorly designed PvP is but because this is a syndicate I'm fully expecting (even though most don't want this) something exclusive behind it to 'force participation'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlusteredFerret Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) 37 minutes ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said: I'm sincerely asking, someone help me understand. When the majority of the player base (I assume) plays this game for the PvE. Why waste time and resources on yet another PvP mode in which (I'm certain) the majority of the player base will opt-out of? And will mostly be dead on arrival. Seems like yet another giant waste of time and company resources. Wouldn't time and resources be better spent else where? For example instead of working on a Stalker PvP mode, how bout a Stalker/Acolyte quest/cinematic. Some Stalker lore, example: what happened to the Stalker after second dream? Who knows? Seems like a good opportunity right there. I think at least that would be more constructive for Warframe than yet another PvP mode barley anyone will play. Thoughts? I asked myself the exact same question. But there is a fairly noisy minority who've been demanding some sort of endgame / PvP mode to let them show how cheesy awesome they are, (as well as an equally vocal group of Stalker fanbois who desperately want to be able to look just like him), so I guess this is DE's way of killing 2 Condrocs with 1 stone... Since I will be having absolutely nothing to do with this, I'm not really that bothered one way or the other. However I can genuinely see this Stalker mode going the same way as Lunaro and Conclave. I mean, I will be utterly staggered if more than a few hundred people end up bothering with it. I'm also not really disappointed with DE since they have also been working on plenty of PvE content, which will hopefully be forthcoming in the not-too-distant future... Edited February 8, 2019 by FlusteredFerret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakosta_Kai Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 21 minutes ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said: Thoughts? The mode is a fairly old request and there is a subset of the playerbase that will take part in it. Given that it appears to have taken a minimum of actual development/production time to prepare, it's just a low dose option that some will enjoy. Where, imo, a player should actually be concerned is... That it likely means that players who opt-in will see Stalker pops more. That Zanuka and G3 would become the next logical targets for the option which people will definitely opt-in for given how much better their loot tables are. That Acolytes, in general, could become part of the spawn table at some point given how dated Stalker's loot table is. That Acolytes could become their own in-game faction. That players playing as Stalker will, almost guaranteed, find some venue to name and shame their conquests while being covered for doing so by the Opt-in mechanic. My bigger question is what does it mean for players who opt-out? Does it mean they will see the different Assassin enemies more (different spawn buckets) or less than / equal to (same bucket but with a modifier increasing the chance for players who opted in).as compared to now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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