Hildryn: Devstream #123

[Nitro747]

Just now, BallisticSalsa said:

Adaptation is an absolute must for her. The DR is one of the few things that apply to shields.

Stacking shield regen is actually really easy in this game but theirs no incentive to do so. Add in the ways to restore energy with it.

Yeah she's going to be an absolute unit.

except adaptation hardly works properly and the only instances its anywhere near "not useless" is when its used in frames with high health and armor to begin with.

[Swagernator22663]

I mean she looks good and all ... but like, can old frames get the same treatment, please.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

8 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

except adaptation hardly works properly and the only instances its anywhere near "not useless" is when its used in frames with high health and armor to begin with.

It actually does work just fine afaik.  The problem is the enemies we fight don't use single stat based attacks.  Like for instance heavy gunners do both impact and puncture damage.  Having a heavy gunner unload into you will only build resistance to one of those.  So at best you'd only be reducing one half of the damage coming at you.  In order to arguably get the most out of adaptation you need to be taking damage from multiple different sources and types.  Knowing this i'd say if it's intended the mod is working but written poorly.

[Gurpgork]

I feel like people are kind of overstating the one shot problem. 

You have to go to obscenely high levels before enemies can legitimately one shot you. Yeah, high level Detron crewmen hit like a train, but they basically have to barrel stuff you to pose a legitimate chance of killing you in one hit.

Sure, you usually can’t depend on shields to survive, but even fairly long into arbitration missions, I’ve noticed that it still takes the grand majority of enemies more than one shot to totally deplete my shield. Usually by the time I’m actually taking health damage, I have 30-40% DR from Adaptation. 

So unless you’re running against level 600 enemies or something preposterous like that, I don’t see one shots as a Warframe with potentially almost 6k shield to be a legitimate threat, especially when Arcane Barrier and Aegis exist and the Warframe has multiple built-in ways to boost and/or restore shields. 

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

21 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

except adaptation hardly works properly and the only instances its anywhere near "not useless" is when its used in frames with high health and armor to begin with.

 

10 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It actually does work just fine afaik.  The problem is the enemies we fight don't use single stat based attacks.  Like for instance heavy gunners do both impact and puncture damage.  Having a heavy gunner unload into you will only build resistance to one of those.  So at best you'd only be reducing one half of the damage coming at you.  In order to arguably get the most out of adaptation you need to be taking damage from multiple different sources and types.  Knowing this i'd say if it's intended the mod is working but written poorly.

What Adaptation doesn’t protect against is high burst damage, which admittedly would be akin to Bombard rockets, Shotgun Lancers, Detron Crewman, etc. Adaptation is a DR for DoTs, anything that constitutes to damage that goes beyond certain thresholds of eHP will be a OHK.

Adaptation when it comes to chip damage that implements a steady flow of DoT, like Heavy Gunners and Corpus Techs, will activate regardless of health/shields/armor as long as it’s within the limitations of the frame’s eHP. If the damage exceeds that, then it would mean death.

As far as Hildryn is concerned with her decent health value and exorbitant shields, adaptation is amazing. We only need to account for her armor. And whether if Rage mods would indirectly refill her shields since energy pickups counts as a shield restore for her.

Edited February 9, 2019 by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23
Additional enemy examples.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

 

What Adaptation doesn’t protect against is high burst damage, which admittedly would be akin to Bombard rockets, Shotgun Lancers, Detron Crewman, etc. Adaptation is a DR for DoTs, anything that constitutes to damage that goes beyond certain thresholds of eHP will be a OHK.

Adaptation when it comes to chip damage that implements a steady flow of DoT, like Heavy Gunners and Corpus Techs, will activate regardless of health/shields/armor as long as it’s within the limitations of the frame’s eHP. If the damage exceeds that, then it would mean death.

As far as Hildryn is concerned with her decent health value and exorbitant shields, adaptation is amazing. We only need to account for her armor. And whether if Rage mods would indirectly refill her shields since energy pickups counts as a shield restore for her.

That's a good point to note, well two points.  But yes.  I'm wondering if quick thinking will interact with her shields or not.  Because iirc quick thinking is effected by armor mods. (Could be wrong though.  Heard it from Brozime)

[BallisticSalsa]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

As far as Hildryn is concerned with her decent health value and exorbitant shields, adaptation is amazing. We only need to account for her armor. And whether if Rage mods would indirectly refill her shields since energy pickups counts as a shield restore for her.

The two things not even mentioned here are the gating and that energy pickups trigger shield regen.

Not to mention all the potential mod interactions we've yet to explore. Augur set already sees a ton of use and this frame all but demands you use the full set. We dont know yet how Flow/Primed flow interact or for that matter quick thinking which might be dead mods on her or provide other benefits.

She can shed status effects at will. Can't be one shot at base. Strips armor and can suck the life out of everything close by to regenerate shields.

Its possible the sheer amount of shield regen comboed with adaptation and a consistent way to get energy orbs wilk make her pretty damn hard to kill.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

28 minutes ago, BallisticSalsa said:

The two things not even mentioned here are the gating and that energy pickups trigger shield regen.

Not to mention all the potential mod interactions we've yet to explore. Augur set already sees a ton of use and this frame all but demands you use the full set. We dont know yet how Flow/Primed flow interact or for that matter quick thinking which might be dead mods on her or provide other benefits.

She can shed status effects at will. Can't be one shot at base. Strips armor and can suck the life out of everything close by to regenerate shields.

Its possible the sheer amount of shield regen comboed with adaptation and a consistent way to get energy orbs wilk make her pretty damn hard to kill.

Kinda makes you wonder what the shield restore would be when energy orb pickup is concerned. Maybe a similar formula to Equilibrium will be used.

And the insane amount of restore that will be implemented if an Arcane Energize is used. 😃

But as far as Shield-gating is concerned, I believe it’s a situational scenario whenever shields are fully depleted and health is directly affected. We’ll see what happens, but afaic Hildryn is a very interesting frame to toy with mechanically.

[HugintheCrow]

1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

You have to go to obscenely high levels before enemies can legitimately one shot you.

Level 60 enemies can easily oneshot you. That's not obscenely high.

[000l000]

Il y a 2 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

I'm still very hessitant to her mechanics working or making her playable at all. It will be interesting to see. I mean if they can get shield gating to work for her I'd love to see it on Mag, Volt and Harrow, they could be completely insane.

 

Many people complain about new frames lack of originality, copy/paste powers and such things. A brand new ressource mechanics is refreshing, at this point we can only wait until we see something relevant to criticize, comment or whatever.

I have one and only concern though, will this frame be playable in no shield content. Originality is fine but new mechanics shouldn't prevent being cut out of some content.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, BallisticSalsa said:

The two things not even mentioned here are the gating and that energy pickups trigger shield regen.

Not to mention all the potential mod interactions we've yet to explore. Augur set already sees a ton of use and this frame all but demands you use the full set. We dont know yet how Flow/Primed flow interact or for that matter quick thinking which might be dead mods on her or provide other benefits.

She can shed status effects at will. Can't be one shot at base. Strips armor and can suck the life out of everything close by to regenerate shields.

Its possible the sheer amount of shield regen comboed with adaptation and a consistent way to get energy orbs wilk make her pretty damn hard to kill.

Neither the Augur set or QT will work on her most likely.

Augur would just be beyond broken if she can use it, because it would simply mean that she'll never lose shields when using abilities and she'd never need to worry about efficiency or anything else. Say her #4 costs 100 like all other abilities, but instead of energy they use shields. Well with augur mods she'd instead just gain shield 240% of the cost as shields.

And QT triggers when you drop to 2HP, by the time that triggers her shields will already be gone. So she'll have no way to pay for QT keeping her alive to begin with.

Flow/Primed Flow may work on her by simply providing even more amounts of shield percentage.

And as for adaption. Not too sure how good it is on Hildryn. If the mod follows the rules of all other "when damaged" tooltips it would require you to take actual health damage.

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

I hope hildryn will be granted a shield immunity capability to specific damage types. 

[BallisticSalsa]

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

And as for adaption. Not too sure how good it is on Hildryn. If the mod follows the rules of all other "when damaged" tooltips it would require you to take actual health damage.

This one is already confirmed to work with shields.

The issue people have with it is that it doesn't help against burst damage.

I think theyre more likely to alter the way augur interacts with her specifically rather than kill it. Maybe translate it into raw ability efficiency. We'll see.

[JarodDempsey]

Background: I main mag and love shields and have been advocating for a shield frame since I started WF, glad to finally see one introduced.

Title. But also I hope hildryn gets some kind of barrier skill. Maybe make her 1 deploy a barrier bubble after impact with a strength proportional to charge duration.

Also her 2 seems fine although I wish allied cleanse worked on rad procs since that's like the only proc allies regularly need cleansed. Will be good to self cleanse shield bypassing procs (hopefully).

Her 3 needs better visuals I hope they make it more noticeable, perhaps enemies or allies in range may have a graphic that wasn't shown in the stream.

4 seems fine.

Overall I'd like to note that she does not have tank lvl innate ehp based on the video. Assuming moderate armor she probably has around 5.5k ehp. She probably has around 1.5k base shields so full redirection would probably put her with 11-13k ehp. What is of note however is the "shield buff" on her 3 (and ofc her gating) which will hopefully give her respectable ehp somewhere in the low to mid 20k's or higher. (Always remember as well she won't often be full shield since it's also her energy resource!) Unless she has some damage reduction mechanics potentially from her 3 it looks as though she'll have similar burst survivability to the likes of atlas.

Also I didn't hear anything about a built in heal or overshield mechanic (aside from the energy orbs one) although I did see a lot of energy orbs during her ult. Obviously arcane aegis and a regen mod will usually keep her topped up but some form of burst Regen would be nice, especially because she lacks a barrier shield and is thic™ af. 

Also I don't remember seeing much about her zarya cannon so idk what's up with that or why her 1 is "modded separately" which I'm hoping is just the same as atlas/gara/khora 1.

Edited February 9, 2019 by JarodDempsey

[SneakyErvin]

10 minutes ago, BallisticSalsa said:

This one is already confirmed to work with shields.

The issue people have with it is that it doesn't help against burst damage.

I think theyre more likely to alter the way augur interacts with her specifically rather than kill it. Maybe translate it into raw ability efficiency. We'll see.

Hmm that would be pretty awesome if they let the bonus act as efficiency. Would let her reach the efficiency cap easily with secrets and accord.

[Gurpgork]

1 hour ago, HugintheCrow said:

Level 60 enemies can easily oneshot you. That's not obscenely high.

Which enemies, under what circumstances, and while playing which Warframes? Maybe a level 60 Detron crewman can kill you at point blank if you’re playing Loki with no survivability mods, but how often is that going to happen? 

[HugintheCrow]

25 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Which enemies, under what circumstances, and while playing which Warframes? Maybe a level 60 Detron crewman can kill you at point blank if you’re playing Loki with no survivability mods, but how often is that going to happen? 

Corpus units during the Orb fight, Zephyr with Vitality for survivability mods. Whenever I forget to insta-recast the turbulence I instantly die to any dude in there. Yes, I destroy the reinforcement pylons and keep the alert to minimum zero lights up at all times.

[Teji_The_Ninja_Pigeon]

What about loads of ancient disruptors? If one lucky melee hit procs magnetic, her max shield cap gets reduced by 75% alongside other bs interface screws.

Ancient disruptors everywhere with their goddamn charger and runner lackeys... oh yeah, to not forget Vay Hek and his -looks wikia- Disruption Wave! Anything else I'm forgetting? Been a while since I played WF

Edited February 9, 2019 by Teji_The_Ninja_Pigeon

[DarkSaint_Exile]

My question is if there are plans for shield based counterparts to the Rejuvenation & Physique auras? 

Edit: I also wonder if Arcane Barrier, Arcane Aegis, & Arcane Energize, healing abilities such as Trinity's Blessing, Energy Vampire (& Vampire Leech mod for that matter), & items such as team energy restores will affect Hildryn's shields when her 3rd and/or 4th ability channeling effects are active?

#Make Shields Great Again

Edited February 10, 2019 by Dark_Divinity88
Addition

[PsiWarp]

One thing about Aegis Storm, as someone said on the wiki, is that shift (roll and backspring) should still be her custom dash for faster directional movement (since WASD is slow as heck in the demo), while LCtrl or crouch should descend with Spacebar remaining the same for ascend.

[GPrime96]

13 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

I feel like people are kind of overstating the one shot problem. 

You have to go to obscenely high levels before enemies can legitimately one shot you. 

No really since Players can go to nromal Mot and get one shot there before you reach very high levels.

[ChaoticEdge]

Well even thou you don't have adaptation mod you are pretty big heep of mess.

Yea this guy talk about her and now I have to agree with him because it is missing negate dmg type.

[541K4T]

Well, don't know about mods but Arcane Barrier is going to be in high demand after Hildryn debuts.

[ChaoticEdge]

30 minutes ago, 541K4T said:

Well, don't know about mods but Arcane Barrier is going to be in high demand after Hildryn debuts.

Even thou you have the arcane barrier, which one come down faster?  The bullets or the arcane barrier?  I have lots doubt of that as well even thou you may gain some shields but enemies who can mow down shields like cutting hot butter knife into the butter it means nothing to them.  I know she will be overpower but not greatly in that range, probably low level enemies in 30s easy piece of cake taken care of, but when it comes to lvl 50 enemies and having her at the orb would of just simple rag doll her next yard and her abilities wouldn't be used widely.  Even thou you increase the range you still have some the downfall being crush the shield.  I think its time the dev improved the shield and having shield modding more seriously in future update.

[ligonare]

I am not going to mince words. I worry for Hildyrn. Her design sounds unorthodox and fun on paper but she is going to have a hard time surviving in the game at mid/ high levels if these conditions are not addressed.

Shield-based Warframes: the weaknesses and how to circumvent them

Shields are the first line of defence that most frames possess. The only main advantage they have over health in their ability to regenerate after a period of not taking damage. However, the disadvantages are numerous.

• Shields are not affected by armor values (no dmg reduction)
• Shields require the player to not take damage to regenerate, which means using the environment, evasiveness or cc to function effectively
• Shield regeneration can be interrupted by dmg
• There are no mods to reduce shield recharge delay, save for PvP
• Magnetic dmg is the bane of shields: -75% capacity debuff on proc and +++ on shields
• Impact dmg deals + on shields. And the grineer and corrupted have quite a few units that deal impact dmg in droves (Heavy gunner, seekers, etc.)

Shields are hence not late-game viable because they cannot protect the frame sufficiently when it is supposed to. They melt too quickly under a barrage of heavy fire, melee and the like. However, their viability can be improved with the frames' abilities.

There are some frames that primarily uses bulk shields as their main source of defence. I will explain why their design work to some degree in keeping the player alive.

Mag:

• 2 out of her 4 abilities replenishes shields (Shield polarize and Crush)
• 3 out of her 4 abilities have natural cc to some degree (Pull, Magnetize and Crush)
• Shield Polarize can be modded to have cc with Counter Pulse but it also has a natural shield replenish with every shielded/ armored enemy affected (overrides natural regen)
• Crush replenishes shields and also grants overshields while cc-ing

Harrow

• His 1 cc-s, replenishes and also grants overshields. Cheap and spammable cc
• His passive doubles overshields cap, giving synergy with his 1

Hildryn's design uses her shields as her energy reserves. Sounds great, until you realise that this reserve is very volatile. No shields = no ability casting. Abilities that circumvent unnecessary damage. Her 2 may replenish shields like Mag's shield polarize but if shield regeneration is suppressed because you are getting shot at or under a magnetic proc, her only worth is to flex her biceps. Her abilities do not support her design too well.

• 1 out of her 4 abilities replenishes shields (only if you have enough shields)
• All her abilities require shields to activate and maintain (natural shield regen suppression)
• Only her ultimate provides cc (And hovering in plain view is a bullet attractor for enemies)

This limits Hildryn's modding potential to shield capacity, regen and preservation. The mandatory mods will have to include:

1. Shield capacity mods
2. Shield regen mods (optional if ability usage is high)
3. Mods that limit shields taking dmg (Adaptation)
4. Emergency shield recharge (Sentinel Guardian, Arcane Barrier, shield restores)

In the Devstream, the controlled environment only has butchers as test subjects. I reckon if there were heavy gunners, lancers, hellions and seekers, the outlook would be totally different. Hildryn needs more though put into her design because I believe she is non viable in late game. Heck, I don't think she would even survive the Profit Taker in her current form.

Suggestions:

If the current philosophy of shields = energy is to be kept, the important thing is for Hildryn to limit damage to her shields, replenish/ gain shields fast. Her kit must reflect that shield bastion that she is supposed to be.

Passive: Shield Gating

In my opinion, this feature should be a universal feature present on all frames in the beginning. The prevention of lump sum dmg bleeding into health from shields is a feature that is implemented into games like the Mass Effect series and the upcoming Anthem. This passive will not see optimal use for Hildyrn until very high levels because her design does not allow her to survive high level content, she will most likely not die via a single, lethal shot but rather a hail of stings/bullets.

Change her passive to something like how the nullifier shields work: maximum dmg gating for her reinforced shields. A single shot is gated at a certain value when it strikes her shield. For example 900 dmg shot hits her shield > 400 shield dmg taken. Slower RoF, heavy hitting weapons will not work too well on her but high RoF ones will be a threat. It will function like how Immortals from Starcraft works.

Or just a flat AoE EMP/ temp armor buff on shield depletion.

Skills

• Less damage oriented, more support/ defence oriented ones
• Augment Mesa's shatter shield for one of her abilities - limit shield damage
• Skills that affect recharge mechanics: delay, speed, interrupt mechanics
• Shield investment + return mechanic. Sacrifice shield capacity for X duration > Overshields on ability end. Or shields for energy drops.
• Weapon energy leeching - X% dmg dealt converted to shields (like discharge)
• Shield melding - Allies/ Enemies: share shield pool.
• Shield projection/ transference

Feel free to discuss on any further gripes, improvements that anyone have in mind. Cheers.

Add-on:

• Improvement to her 2: Shield Pillage. An additional capacitor with 3 charges is separate from the shield pool. This is like nidus mutation stacks. To charge the capacitor, Hildryn will sacrifice X shields to gain a charge. In event of complete shield depletion, charges can be spent to use 2 to replenish shields. When safe to do so, Hildyrn can recharge the capacitor if she got enough shields.
• Improvement to her 1: Dmg dealt by 1 can replenish % of shields or have a chance to replenish % of shields.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by ligonare