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Hildryn: Devstream #123


Lewtenant
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So with the devstream demo of Hildryn, I have a few concerns I want to have addressed.

I am a Rhino main and I know the ins and outs of being that tanky frame. As rhino I suffer from energy problems, ie negative efficiency and lack of modspace to fit my "mandatory" augments (which btw was a big controversy on its own. Most players believe augments are a waste of mod space to what should have been added to abilities ie recastability) To counter this problem I use maxed Primed Flow and dual maxed arcane energize. I still however, cannot do Energy reduction sorties as rhino and ash prime has the lowest energy pool of the primes and suffering 1/4th the pool makes my 3rd and 4th ability impossible to cast. Hildryn, using shields as energy will be immune to energy reduction. It is practically a cheese for the worst sortie condition imo. She will also solve the energy economy issues of all warframes being the one with it recharging as fast as shields, and once depleted, a sentinel mod Guardian will instantly refill her "energy pool".

Inbalance:

Hildryn's shield pools as survivability is something I often cheese in other frames with quick thinking+ primed flow in many missions that I want to easily mastery fodder a trash frame, ie vauban (cough cough*). However this makes Hildryn practically the same thing as quick thinking and primed flow, but instead just maxed redirection (easy to max with endo and credits) as well as possibly primed vigor. She will easily be able to save a mod slot for other mods, as well has omit Energy Siphon for Shield Charger, which would work better for her in the economic regard than energy. We don't even know if there's an anti afk for shields as we do for anti afk energy ability spams.

She also won't need Arcane energize at all, which is a really expensive item in game thanks to the poor energy economy in game as it is, but shields recharge semi-passively at a fast rate, making her a really easy to mod for ability-spam frame. This will lastly free up her 2 arcane slots for even better performance.

Abiltiy Comparison:

Her abilities, from what was said in stream, seems to be a rhino kick in the sharp crotch:
Rhino 1: Charges short distance (can sacrifice a mod slot to grant useful but temporary armor that synergies with his 2)
Hildryn 1: Infinite range projectile launcher with infinite ammo that does scaling damage that can be modded and charge fired
Rhino 2: Casts anywhere between 5k to 18k HP+ and is immune to knockdowns and status (NOT recast-able unless you sacrifice another mod slot) and can be nullified and make Rhino evaporate
Hildryn 2: Recasts/replenishes her armor AND shields (which is shield gated to be her version of Rhino's 2) that passively regenerates and cannot be nullified, like AT ALL
Rhino 3: Boosts damage with flat 1.5x Multiplier for damage and can be modded up to around 2.5x or full maxed near 3x damage at the cost of everything else
Hildryn 3: Boosts damage AND shields of allies dynamically based on the number of enemies in the game. Potentially better or worse than Rhino's 3, but it is probably recast-able whereas Rhino's 3 is not
Rhino 4: Crowd controls all enemies within range that are planted onto the ground for about 10-15 seconds. Enemies basically turn away from you making headshots difficult and recasting does nothing because enemies affected by the crowd control are no longer planted. Trash mobs of low level are easily killed in this AoE
Hildryn 4: Crowd controls all enemies with range regardless of their footing for an undisclosed amount of time. Fly around with enemies stationary and ready to be headshotted. Recast at your leisure and is practically a better implementation of an infinite duration Limbo bubble that follows you around like Mesa's 2.

Weakness:

Hildryn will be utterly useless in Nightmare Mode missions. This is because the mode is shieldless so Hildryn will have no "health pool" and no "energy pool".
 

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13 minutes ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

Rhino 2: Casts anywhere between 5k to 18k HP+ and is immune to knockdowns and status (NOT recast-able unless you sacrifice another mod slot) and can be nullified and make Rhino evaporate
Hildryn 2: Recasts/replenishes her armor AND shields (which is shield gated to be her version of Rhino's 2) that passively regenerates and cannot be nullified, like AT ALL
 

It's situational but if I was going for invincibility I would still choose Rhino because there are status effects that go through shields - i.e. toxin and slash - the deadliest statuses enemies can give you. 

For regular damage negation, sure Hildryn (maybe) has an upper hand.  But I can imagine her probably having a low health and armor pool underneath all that shield - and that's going to count for something against some factions like Infested.  We're going to see Hildryn's dropping like flies in Infested Sorties, or when taking sustained fire from corrupted with slash.  

Outside of 1 to 1 comparisons of power, it does look like Rhino will have mobility as an advantage, as one of Hildryn's abilities essentially holds her in one spot.  That may be another advantage but it's kind of hard to tell considering you're discussing a frame not even out yet.  

Edited by (PS4)lagrue
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10 hours ago, ligonare said:

I am not going to mince words. I worry for Hildyrn. Her design sounds unorthodox and fun on paper but she is going to have a hard time surviving in the game at mid/ high levels if these conditions are not addressed.

~snip~

Everything presented here are my exact thoughts and concerns about Hildyrn. which is why back when we didn't know what her powers were going to be that she would (or rather SHOULD) have something to buff at least how HER shields work in comparison to how they usually work for everything else. 

She either needs to have somekind of innate shield DR or something to allow her to resist or even temporarily ignore certain damage types. Ligonare mentioned how bad shields are in general. I was talking how inefficient shields are against damage types like poison and slash... even if Hildyrn has the ability to remove status effects she still needs to be able to CAST the abilities in the first place. and if her ability to cast is removed how is she supposed to defend herself? Even if you are on point with using abilities to remove debuffs/effects it still chips away at you regardless...

 

I'm still excited to Hildyrn but I'm also worried. I think she needs more to her kit or somekind of adjustment to her passive (at least) or additional effects added to her abilities if she is going to be remotely mid to high level content viable 

8 hours ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

It's situational but if I was going for invincibility I would still choose Rhino because there are status effects that go through shields - i.e. toxin and slash - the deadliest statuses enemies can give you. 

For regular damage negation, sure Hildryn (maybe) has an upper hand.  But I can imagine her probably having a low health and armor pool underneath all that shield - and that's going to count for something against some factions like Infested.  We're going to see Hildryn's dropping like flies in Infested Sorties, or when taking sustained fire from corrupted with slash.  

Outside of 1 to 1 comparisons of power, it does look like Rhino will have mobility as an advantage, as one of Hildryn's abilities essentially holds her in one spot.  That may be another advantage but it's kind of hard to tell considering you're discussing a frame not even out yet.  

even more valid points here. and the same concerns that I have as well. 

 

as corny and unimaginative as this sounds as things currently stands she needs somekind of "Iron Shield" to her kit... even if it was her passive where things like Armor counts towards shield DR on attacks or her shields are refined that status effects like poison and slash cannot penetrate her natural shields. (or a combination of that and more or other things whatever it may be) 

she looks like she has good CC in her kit... but the question is would she even be able to get into position to be able TO CC is another question all together.  

it is all still too early to tell... but concerns are pretty clear.

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She looks great, and she'll be unkillable if paired with Trinity/Harrow (wonder how she will work with Energy Vampire augment though).

Plus, she is gorgeous and I love her spells' effects. Just wondering where she'll be obtained, maybe this will be paired with Gas City ?

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On 2019-01-22 at 2:37 PM, Lewtenant said:

Locking baruuk behind old mate and then tiers of vox solaris was a mistake that DE can still fix before switch release. Hildryn should not be gated behind all of this mastery/standing grind, partially for her passive.

How is the method of getting baruuk a mistake? Pretty straight foward to get him, rank up a syndicate and buy the blueprints aside from quest frames the most straight forward frame to farm. And why should the switch be the only one to get a different way to farm him that seems like a $&*^ move to change it for only one platform.

Edited by (XB1)The Neko Otaku
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2 hours ago, ligonare said:

Ok then. What PvE mod reduces shield recharge delay then?

I'll wait.

actually he is right... there's Fast Deflection along with Fortitude and Vigilante Vigor but that just increases the recharge RATE... not actually reducing the delay before the recharge.

unless a mod has popped up under the radar...

Edited by Yefrign
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7 hours ago, ligonare said:

Ok then. What PvE mod reduces shield recharge delay then?

I'll wait.

 

1 hour ago, HugintheCrow said:

Strong words for someone that's dead wrong.

iem42a.png

 

Keep fighting the good fight @ligonare. Your analysis skills are some of the best I've seen yet on this forum.

Sorry to disapoint you boys but there is ONE: As @Yefrignsays https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Fast_Deflection

Get reckt'd m8's

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3 hours ago, HugintheCrow said:

Strong words for someone that's dead wrong.

iem42a.png

 

Keep fighting the good fight @ligonare. Your analysis skills are some of the best I've seen yet on this forum.

Some things.

Her 2 is confirmed to remove status effects from her and I believe her allies.  Also strips armor and gives back shields.

Picking up energy orbs immediately starts shield recharge for her.  Not to mention giving her back shields.

I agree that she needs some form of innate DR to apply to her shields outside of Adaptaion.  But even a moderate amount will do.  Even if it's soemthing like 33% of her armor.

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21 minutes ago, BallisticSalsa said:

Some things.

Her 2 is confirmed to remove status effects from her and I believe her allies.  Also strips armor and gives back shields.

Picking up energy orbs immediately starts shield recharge for her.  Not to mention giving her back shields.

I agree that she needs some form of innate DR to apply to her shields outside of Adaptaion.  But even a moderate amount will do.  Even if it's soemthing like 33% of her armor.

That is true. But get hit under the circumstance, you can forget regenerating said shield. And you can't cast 2 without any shields, the situation where 2 is supposed to prevent.

I guess a compromise is the nidus treatment. 1 and 2 uses energy only, 3 and 4 need both shields and energy/ shields only. That way it is not a necessity to mod for energy and it gives precedence to 2 keeping her alive.

Edited by ligonare
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13 hours ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

How is the method of getting baruuk a mistake?

Baruuk is faulty for 3 reasons: 

1) Old Mate: In order to get past tier 2 of Vox solaris standing you have to rank up to old mate in Fortuna, and then rank up to Hand in Vox solaris to get Baruuk. That's 400,000 standing of just thresholds to reach in factions before you earn a warframe. No other warframe is locked behind almost maxing not 1 but 2 factions! Garuuda farm was locked behind tier 4 gems with Solaris United, which was frustrating when she came out. This is especially egregious for the switch because they literally just got Fortuna last week. They are just starting the old mate grind, and most of their player base is new aside from the PC account migrations. Additionally they should be getting Baruuk very soon, since the bulk of the update latency was built around getting the Fortuna landscape to run on the switch's mobile GPU.

2) Vox standing rewards: the blueprint is tier 3, and the components are tier 4, which is backwards. You can't start building the frame until the components are done, and you have to farm the toroids and alloys to get the frame. It should be components tier 3, blueprints tier 4, so you can build the components as you rank up. 

3) Hespazym alloy: you need about 160 for baruuk, but the problem here is that resource drop chance boosters make farming this alloy worse. There have been many complaints about alloy farming due to the low drop rates in comparison to gems, and resource drop chance boosters tilt the tables further in favor of gems. Resource boosters are the only effective augments to farm baruuk. I crafted baruuk after making every kit gun, every moa, and every k drive. I mined their resources myself. I still had to farm almost all of that hespazym alloy exclusively for baruuk, even though I only needed it for one k drive that I remember. It took me 2 hours to get that alloy straight mining with a resource booster, not a drop chance booster, and that was pretty egregious given the dozens of rare gems I accrued during that time.

I know the hyldren thread isn't the best place to list all this, which is why I have done so in other threads in the forums and on the reddit. However, one thing DE almost never changes is how a frame is farmed (frost/excal/trin are the only changes I know of). When hyldren is introduced, she should not be part of vox solaris standing rewards because of the old mate requirement. There's no reason for the old mate requirement for heists other than to artificially pad update time. We didn't have to wait for Suraah to use the quills or fight any of the tiers of eidolons.

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There is no way to convince me that she won't be another DoA frame like Revenant was if what we saw on the stream was what we were going to get.  And let me explain why:

 

Shields:  Shields have no way to reduce any incoming damage unlike armor.  Impact and magnetic damage/procs are pretty rampant on enemies as is.  Toxin and slash bypass shielding.  Shields as a whole would need to be reworked in order to be considered valuable.

Spending shields to gain shields:  I don't see the point in this.  As we've just established shields hold little value themselves.  Why would I care about having more of something that has no value?  To use my abilities?  If her abilities actually brought something valuable to the table this could be some what forgivable.  It would still be super bad.  But at least i'd have the desire to have up keep for the resource.  We can assume that mods like rage or quick thinking will not have any extra interplay with her passive because her passive clearly states energy orbs.  And even if they did why would I take a shield based frame over an armor based frame that does more?  It also doesn't change the fact that shields are bad and thus getting more means nothing.

Passive:  So assuming what is listed is all it's getting then i'm worried.  Gating almost always needs an invulnerability period to work which is not stated to be there.  Shields themselves do not have anything bolstering their effectiveness.  Meaning i'm almost always going to be gated whenever I have shields. Sounds nice.  Until you realize you can't cast anything because you keep losing your shields.  Hence the need for that grace period.  Her passive could do so much more.  Like Her overshields are more effective at tanking damage.  Or picking up energy orbs continually recharges her shields for a set period of time despite damage.  Or maybe even when she gets gated her abilities temp don't cost her shields.  Her passive just doesn't do enough to keep her alive.

Balefire:  Why would I use this over a gun?  It doesn't have any unique properties to it.  It doesn't have massive AoE.  it's literally me spending my life source that is already pretty terrible to do damage.  I can just skip that entirely by using a gun.  The only reason I see for it's inclusion is so you are forced to use it in your 4 instead of a weapon.  Which I HOPE is not the case.  It's also treated as a true and blue exalted weapon.  Which means her forma investment is already going to be high.

Shield pillage:  Not many enemies outside the corpus have shields.  And the armor bit is confusing.  Does she also pull shields from armor units?  or does she gain bonus armor when she steals from armored enemies?  If it's the former then good.  Reliable shield source which will back the constant need to cast this to rid Hildryn of constant status procs that drastically hurt her.  If the later nice maaaaybe?  It might mean if she loses shields she won't insta die.  But she still won't have shields to use her abilities.  Which is bad.  Now if her armor value effected her shields tankyness then this could work.  Overall aside from that potential scare my only complaint is that it's visually plain.

Haven: Sweet baby Jesus why would I use this?  Allies don't have shield gating.  Shields to a majority of frames are pointless.  And i'm not getting any back from doing this.  So is this just a terrible damage ability at the cost of my life source?  I 100% don't get the idea behind this ability.

Aegis storm:  The star of her showcase and the one ability that I believe is the reason why so many people think she's amazing already.  it's a good ability especially if it's dropping those energy orbs for everyone.  seems like it can be used in a panic too.  Though, if I can't use my actual weapons in this i'll be upset.  and if I am locked out of using her shield pillage while in this i'm actually mad.  I like the cool mobility that she gets with this plus her passive.  Though as a zephyr fan I can't help but be upset by it.

Wrapping up:  Again I ask what is the point of playing her?  She seems like she's meant to be a support through status cleanse, shield/energy supplier, and some cc.  But status cleanse is a relatively minor benefit for allies.  Shields again mean basically nothing for allies.  And there are much better ways to give allies energy let alone numerous ways for a player to get their own energy.  Her cc is the most notable effect as far as im concerned as a support.  But that alone isn't worth me picking her up.  Especially with her being overly reliant on shields to not only live but even be played.  It's also fun to think that for a frame that is SO reliant on having shields she only has 1 ability that gives her shields back.  1.  Hoping they just scrap her entirely and rebuild her.  DE had the sense to do it with octavia and she turned out beautifully.  (khora too imo.  Don't @me.)

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On 2019-02-08 at 3:35 PM, LupisV0lk said:

I for one await the meta tryhards screeching about how "bad" she is because they can't figure her out.

All i know is I am going to try running a few setups on her when I get her, since I like to play around and find the build I like.

But the main thing I know is I am really hopping I can summon my grattler  hover into the air in front of a group of sorry grineer/corpus and role play as A Hind Gunship covering the ground in explosive automatic fire.

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