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ssh83

Anthem is Outdated. Remember Warframe's Roots

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The Theme Park MMO design:

  • One cinematic story.  Wait X months for next chapter.
  • World state is predetermined regardless of player participation.  All fake choices.
  • Instead of replayable gameplay, just have rare drop and faction Reputation grind.  Reskin enemies to pass off as new content.
  • "Collect 10 pelts per day!"  This one is different from your other 10-pelts quest cuz.. it's a daily!

Every online game has this since World of Warcraft.  Warframe is resembling this more every year.  But veterans know that this is not how Warframe distinguished itself in the Founding days.

Original Warframe Design:

  • Story rolled out naturally though events and research.  World felt alive and unpredictably.
  • Operations allowed players to affect the outcome.  The original Salad vs Ruk in The Gradivus Dilemma
  • Frequent new game modes and enemy types that challenged the player instead of just cosmetic differences (ex: the first Survival event, the first Dragon Vault, the first Nullifier, the first Bursa event, Sabotage 2.0, etc.)
  • Sortie with mutation.  The "daily" every day is a different challenge. One of the best "daily" challenge in gaming.

Different is not guaranteed to be better.  DE made plenty of mistakes, but it's understandable because it's new territory.  However, a mistake is only a loss if lessons learned are not utilized to improve.  

Next-Level Warframe Design:

  • Between the big cinematic releases, release small lore drops and teaser sneak-peak (can be as cheap as inbox message) after special 24-hr alerts.  Good teasers can be just as fun as an actual content drop.  It would also make the story progression feel more natural than out-of-left-field.
    • Kuva Fortress was introduced in Nov 2016.  Throughout 2016, there could've been more tiny events that gave teasers about the home of the grineer queens.  Maybe intercept shipment codes to the fortress to learn that each shipment is to curiously different coordinate?
    • After The Sacrifice... nothing happens?  Let's not investigate what happened.  Not try to search for clues.  The ending of The Sacrifice is kind of begging for tie-in events and on-going story alerts.  Maybe we investigate a reported sighting, because even a false positive is better than nothing at all and we just moved on, business as usual.
  • It's not cost-prohibitive to give player agency and partial ownership of the world if you plan smartly.  For example:
    • Once it is decided that Earth relay will be rebuilt, don't start working on texture/theme, only create the layout.  Then in the operation, allow players to choose one of two syndicate to own that relay.  After the operation, tally the total score across all platforms, then create the texture/theme according to the syndicate that won.
    • Design a gun and allow players to choose the damage type. 
    • A new sentient enemy that will spawn with default resistance to damage types that was used the most during an operation (unbeknownst to the player at the time. nice surprise reveal and absolutely fit the Sentient lore)
  • New gameplay paradigm.  (not just silly gimmick like pressing 2 buttons simultaneously, or just hide in a corner for 2 minutes...  Profit Taker Bounty 3...)  There are plenty of ideas from the community.  Just read/listen.  Examples:
    • We have big open world maps... how about MOBA-inspired missions?  Or even competitive missions like a base race between two squads?  Direct PvP is problematic in Warframe, but indirect PvE competition is more accepted?
    • Infiltration where player can choose violence or stealth based on their loadout.
    • K-Drive missions... it's a race against time and check points are guarded with traps and enemies that dismount you.
  • Sortie's mutations and challenges are a good ideas for replayability, but we can easily do more.   
    • Level 100 Assassination Alert that gives a special Alert-Only relic. 
    • Arbitration Defense with alternating physical/elemental enhancement but rewards every 5 wave. 
    • Excalibur-Only Arbitration Survival that rewards every 5 minutes. 
    • Rare once-per-hour level 100 Void Fissure that gives you double chance for rare.
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16 minutes ago, ssh83 said:

One cinematic story.  Wait X months for next chapter.

I think you mean "wait X months for an Expansion you then have to pay for to continue the story (Destiny 2: Forsaken)

18 minutes ago, ssh83 said:

Once it is decided that Earth relay will be rebuilt, don't start working on texture/theme, only create the layout.  Then in the operation, allow players to choose one of two syndicate to own that relay.  After the operation, tally the total score across all platforms, then create the texture/theme according to the syndicate that won.

that takes a lot longer and is more work than just making a relay's layout, texture and theme all in one go. to be fair I don't think all that many care about the appearance of Relays once the newness wears off: many of us only go there just to exchange medals and Visit Baro when he appears. maybe also Simaris, but Syndicate rooms are always the same no matter what.

20 minutes ago, ssh83 said:

Design a gun and allow players to choose the damage type. 

not much point when everybody will just pick Slash and/or Corrosive, because those are the dominant damage types (though Radiation does have it's place for Eidolons).

21 minutes ago, ssh83 said:

A new sentient enemy that will spawn with default resistance to damage types that was used the most during an operation (unbeknownst to the player at the time. nice surprise reveal and absolutely fit the Sentient lore)

i don't think Sentient Adaptation works like that from what we've seen of them. it's not a thing they can predetermine before a fight, but a bodily reaction to incoming damage that is likely a part of their programming (they are essentially robots, just way more advanced); they can only adapt if they've already taken the damage.

23 minutes ago, ssh83 said:

Infiltration where player can choose violence or stealth based on their loadout.

we kind of do this already with spy missions, I sometimes take silent weapons and try to do all 3 vaults undetected without relying on invisibility. it can be done, but most of the time I choose guns blazing, it's more fun for me and it's what Warframe is about: we're ninjas, but we have laser guns.

26 minutes ago, ssh83 said:

Excalibur-Only Arbitration Survival that rewards every 5 minutes. 

ok but why Excalibur only though? restricting frame choice is not something I think would go down well.

26 minutes ago, ssh83 said:

Rare once-per-hour level 100 Void Fissure that gives you double chance for rare.

hah, DE would never make it that easy to get rare parts, as nice as it would be when new primes roll around. 

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theres that vid on warframes history/beginnings with steve laughing about the fact they were told they would fail with a good looking game and small dev team with expansions few and far between, luckily warframe used the procedurally generated lego map system to make that a nul issue, now however, here we are at that exact same prediction.

They have gone in the wrong direction by trying to emulate all the competition with static boring maps, warframe was better than its sci-fi co-op shooter competitors at the time (FireFall and ME3:MP) by being different largely due to the maps being mostly different all the time beyond small statics like defence.  They should have double downed on the procedurally generated stuff, have each room segment have variations within themselves so they look different, they could have adopted that very same thing on much larger outdoor segments to create outdoor maps that also were procedurally generated to avoid the boredom that static maps always bring, esp on grind heavy games.

But no here we are with Warframe trying to blend in and be just as mediocre as all the rest instead of expanding on their best innovation, esp as the BIGGEST part of the game still uses that procedurally generated system.

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4 hours ago, Methanoid said:

theres that vid on warframes history/beginnings with steve laughing about the fact they were told they would fail with a good looking game and small dev team with expansions few and far between, luckily warframe used the procedurally generated lego map system to make that a nul issue, now however, here we are at that exact same prediction.

They have gone in the wrong direction by trying to emulate all the competition with static boring maps, warframe was better than its sci-fi co-op shooter competitors at the time (FireFall and ME3:MP) by being different largely due to the maps being mostly different all the time beyond small statics like defence.  They should have double downed on the procedurally generated stuff, have each room segment have variations within themselves so they look different, they could have adopted that very same thing on much larger outdoor segments to create outdoor maps that also were procedurally generated to avoid the boredom that static maps always bring, esp on grind heavy games.

But no here we are with Warframe trying to blend in and be just as mediocre as all the rest instead of expanding on their best innovation, esp as the BIGGEST part of the game still uses that procedurally generated system.

I have the same opinion as you.

I actually got bored with open world because it looks the same from the moment we went through the gate.

I thought they would do something different, like having different spawn location in open world, or maybe some crazy stuff like this:

 

Edited by mcKentucky
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Ea will likely kill anthem when they just released  apex legends.Kinda like when they realized battlefield1 almost the same day as titenfall 2

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56 minutes ago, (NSW)jja209 said:

Ea will likely kill anthem when they just released  apex legends.Kinda like when they realized battlefield1 almost the same day as titenfall 2

Apex Legends and Anthem are not competitors. One is a PvE coop looter shooter, the other is a PvP battle royal. They're as similar as Warframe and Fortnite.

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9 hours ago, rune_me said:

Apex Legends and Anthem are not competitors. One is a PvE coop looter shooter, the other is a PvP battle royal. They're as similar as Warframe and Fortnite.

they dont have to be similar for 1 to affect the other, 1 of them just has to be more enjoyable to play and there u have the potential for a mass exodus from 1 to another game, i have done this exact same thing with many games, before warframe my sci-fi shooter preference was ME3:MP and FireFall, as soon as warframe came about i bailed the other 2 near instantly as warframe was considerably more fun and varied.  Had ME3:MP not had such a small selection of tiny static maps i probably would have stuck to ME3:MP.

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7 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

they dont have to be similar for 1 to affect the other, 1 of them just has to be more enjoyable to play and there u have the potential for a mass exodus from 1 to another game, i have done this exact same thing with many games, before warframe my sci-fi shooter preference was ME3:MP and FireFall, as soon as warframe came about i bailed the other 2 near instantly as warframe was considerably more fun and varied.  Had ME3:MP not had such a small selection of tiny static maps i probably would have stuck to ME3:MP.

By that definition Warframe should be afraid of Fortnite, because many more people obviously seem to enjoy Fortnite than Warframe. But it isn't actually an issue, because the people who enjoy Fortnite aren't playing Warframe, and the people playing Warframe prefer it to Fortnite. 

Same scenario. Apex is no more a threat to Anthem, than Fornite is to Warframe.

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1 minute ago, rune_me said:

By that definition Warframe should be afraid of Fortnite, because many more people obviously seem to enjoy Fortnite than Warframe. But it isn't actually an issue, because the people who enjoy Fortnite aren't playing Warframe, and the people playing Warframe prefer it to Fortnite. 

Same scenario. Apex is no more a threat to Anthem, than Fornite is to Warframe.

which is why for quite some time DE keep adding in "non warframelike" features to warframe to attract players who like other genres, or do you think that fishing, mining and pokemon catching is "proper sci-fi horde shooter space ninja" gameplay, im just waiting for a bio-dome to be added to the orbiter so we can get some farmville action in and get planting.

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9 hours ago, rune_me said:

Apex Legends and Anthem are not competitors. One is a PvE coop looter shooter, the other is a PvP battle royal. They're as similar as Warframe and Fortnite.

My point is when they release big hit titles at almost the same resales dates people are going to flock to the popular battle royal thing  over anthem.

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hace 11 minutos, (NSW)jja209 dijo:

My point is when they release big hit titles at almost the same resales dates people are going to flock to the popular battle royal thing  over anthem.

nah, because most of the PvP demographic think PvE is boring and the PvE demographic thinks pvp is the spawn of satan

only a small amount of players like to play both

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10 hours ago, rune_me said:

Apex Legends and Anthem are not competitors. One is a PvE coop looter shooter, the other is a PvP battle royal. They're as similar as Warframe and Fortnite.

The view from the gamer looks like that--one a PvE ARPG, the other a PvP BR. 

The view from EA, however, looks more like this: $$$$ and $$$$. EA is selling widgets that happen to be games. They could, from their point of view, be selling toasters instead of games. It's all the same to them: $$$$. You, as the consumer/gamer, are simply whales to be harpooned by marketing. 

Of course, this isn't so, but that's why EA is in the position they're in at present. That sort of marketing only works when all the products in a category are basically the same. These are games, however, they aren't the same. EA views them as the same, so it's all about the marketing, not the product. 

The problem (well, one of the problems) is that if Apex Legends turns out to be $$$$ to EA, but Anthem turns out to be only $$, then General Motors think takes over and since one isn't making enough money, it has to go (BioWare being Pontiac, if you want to really stretch the analogy) and fans will be...well, we've seen it before more than a few times. It's not pretty. 

Anthem is being rushed out for EA to make some quarterly goal. It's going to suffer for it. BioWare potentially might bite the dust because of it. It's not about us as gamers. It's about the money hats and the diamond ponies at EA. 

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12 minutes ago, Sloan441 said:

The view from the gamer looks like that--one a PvE ARPG, the other a PvP BR. 

The view from EA, however, looks more like this: $$$$ and $$$$. EA is selling widgets that happen to be games. They could, from their point of view, be selling toasters instead of games. It's all the same to them: $$$$. You, as the consumer/gamer, are simply whales to be harpooned by marketing. 

Of course, this isn't so, but that's why EA is in the position they're in at present. That sort of marketing only works when all the products in a category are basically the same. These are games, however, they aren't the same. EA views them as the same, so it's all about the marketing, not the product. 

The problem (well, one of the problems) is that if Apex Legends turns out to be $$$$ to EA, but Anthem turns out to be only $$, then General Motors think takes over and since one isn't making enough money, it has to go (BioWare being Pontiac, if you want to really stretch the analogy) and fans will be...well, we've seen it before more than a few times. It's not pretty. 

Anthem is being rushed out for EA to make some quarterly goal. It's going to suffer for it. BioWare potentially might bite the dust because of it. It's not about us as gamers. It's about the money hats and the diamond ponies at EA. 

Even EA don't have the luxury of seeing the games as the same. Since EA owns Bioware, but is only funding Respawn through their partners program. That means EA isn't paying salaries for Respawn's employees and aren't really involved at all with the development of Apex Legends, only the publishing and the marketing. Respawn has full intellectual property rights over their games. Bioware don't, everything they make belongs to EA. So Apex Legends isn't really EA's game, they are just publishing it and then taking a cut from it's ingame sales. Everything Anthem sells goes straight into EA's pockets. So EA can't really pick between the two games. They are left to just focus their resources on Anthem and let Respawn focus on the development of Apex Legends.

Edited by rune_me

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