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Checht

Is The Game Difficult Enough Yet?

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1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

I don't know if I'd agree with that. Rebellion's ZaT and Strange Brigade have difficulty settings that, imo, make it much more interesting and enjoyable to play. Both are definitely horde games. Tbh, the same applies to pretty much any zombie horde shooter, but then you have several more unique ones like Payday 2, also a horde shooter, in which difficulty is absolutely a factor. New enemies, better loot etc all play a role.

Teammate#1: Would someone please kill that freaking Captain so we can breath?!

Teammate#2: 2 Skulldozers entered the building!

Teammate#3: I shot my last RPG at him and the damn captain is still alive?!

Me: Allright ramblers, we are rambled.

 

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Seriously everytime De adds a new Warframe they should release a counter enemy akin to the Nox, Bursa, Maniac...something specifically meant to deal with that Warframe to keep it in check while allowing other frames to work together to deal with it...Have a mechanic where if someone is overly spamming with a power kit it calls this enemy unit in like how the death of the marked infested triggers the Juggernaut...or just throw them in anyways for variety for the higher level planets...

 

and for once not nerf them...because someone got their ego crushed....

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I am increasingly of the persuasion that DE needs to take the nerf stick to the entire game. Frames, weapons, mods, enemies, all of it. Until that happens any attempt at challenge or balance is doomed to fail. 

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6 hours ago, Voltage said:

Arbitrations scale way slower than Mot. You get more challenge out of an endurance Fissure than an Arbitration with a squad.

Imo, the issue with mot is that.as long as you have abilities you can cheese it as hard as you want. (Ofc you could just not use certain abilitys but I don't think that's the answer op is looking for.)  Three hours in an abitration is harder then three hours on mot because after you hit that one shot territory not having abilities always working is a lot more difficult.

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The game is far from difficult but I've come to accept that being difficult does not always equal more fun.

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10 hours ago, Checht said:

...

Apparently DE just started worrying about difficulty recently, and have been brainstorming and discussing what could be done to address the lack of challenge in the game (based on what they said a couple dev streams ago). They have one or two things they want to try and experiment on over the course of the next several updates, but no concrete plan yet. So basically.... I'd say come back in two or three years to see if anything has changed then. 😋

In the meantime, there's Anthem and Division 2 coming out this year that you and your friends can check out. 

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8 hours ago, GPrime96 said:

They’re also the only enemies outside of Nightmare Mode and Mot that hits like a Truck at lvl 100+. Like One Shot Territory if the Frame isn’t a Tank.

It's three types specifically: the sniper with the Opticor, which you can see charging up before they fire; the Jackal, which shreds you in 2s with its machine gun (u gotta get under its legs and kill it fast before he pops the shield); and the Elite Terra dudes, who fire slow moving projectiles that can one-shot.

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4 hours ago, AncientWendigo said:

I am increasingly of the persuasion that DE needs to take the nerf stick to the entire game. Frames, weapons, mods, enemies, all of it. Until that happens any attempt at challenge or balance is doomed to fail. 

This would piss off too many players. I agree though. I think perma invuln and perma stealth frames aren't going anywhere. I've actually come to accept Rivens and overtuned weapons.

I think the answer is to buff PvE, indirectly. Like they did with OV Corpus, and how they will likely do with the new faction. Players don't have to fight these guys at lvl 125, but those of us who want to, while framing toroids, can.

I'm glad DE is accepting the fact that for WF to have longevity, they will have to look at difficulty and reward scaling. They need to keep designing future content with a wide audience in mind, and give us options to scale up difficult and rewards. Those who just wanna play fashion frame can continue to do so at their desired difficulty level.

I'll be honest, I believe this recent attentiveness to difficulty scaling has been brought on by the upcoming competition Anthem and Division 2, both of which seem to have an "endgame first" design approach. And they also seem to listen to bitter vets like LifeOfRio, which I think is really important.

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Just stay away, it's your own fault by (ab)using the meta that you don't have challenge in this game.

Stop using it and you'll find plenty, like arbitrations for example.

The devs won't flip switch the game 180° just because some guys can't let loose of the meta and then complain there's no challenge. Like you stated yourself you were abusing it.

Only because DE gave you the tools to extreme power doesn't mean you constantly have to use it. If you "overgear" yourself it's on you, just like in any other game.

Especially since the majority enjoys the game, otherwise it would've died before the introduction.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

Just stay away, it's your own fault by (ab)using the meta that you don't have challenge in this game.

Stop using it and you'll find plenty, like arbitrations for example.

The devs won't flip switch the game 180° just because some guys can't let loose of the meta and then complain there's no challenge. Like you stated yourself you were abusing it.

Only because DE gave you the tools to extreme power doesn't mean you constantly have to use it. If you "overgear" yourself it's on you, just like in any other game.

Especially since the majority enjoys the game, otherwise it would've died before the introduction.

The meta shouldn't be mutually exclusive to fun. Ideally, the most effective, efficient way should also be the most engaging, or at the very least pretty high up there.

Consider Devil May Cry, where the most efficient way to play the game is to have a full understanding of the game's mechanics and numerous strategies for each enemy that can be implemented to dodge incoming damage whilst dishing out your own. Whilst this might not be the most fun way to play the game for many people (That would probably be styling on enemies), it is still fun as hell. Not so for Warframe where the most efficient ways of playing are nuking and/or mass hard CC spam, which isn't fun for many players.

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vor 8 Minuten schrieb Loza03:

The meta shouldn't be mutually exclusive to fun. Ideally, the most effective, efficient way should also be the most engaging, or at the very least pretty high up there.

Consider Devil May Cry, where the most efficient way to play the game is to have a full understanding of the game's mechanics and numerous strategies for each enemy that can be implemented to dodge incoming damage whilst dishing out your own. Whilst this might not be the most fun way to play the game for many people (That would probably be styling on enemies), it is still fun as hell. Not so for Warframe where the most efficient ways of playing are nuking and/or mass hard CC spam, which isn't fun for many players.

Then don't do it, simple as that. Noone forces you to do anything. Take a frame that can't nuke nor stunlock and voila. I play it that way and it's fun, and reap rewards the same way as someone who's "efficient".

I'm also not a fan of camping for example, only because you can, doesn't mean you must. I see it in arbitrations on a daily basis. I've done hours in survival there without camping and got the rewards as "efficient" as a camper. The camper may like the way to play like that, but I don't, so I don't. 

And yeah, I disagree, since even in DmC you can just blindly mash buttons and still win fast. I tried. 

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1 minute ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

Then don't do it, simple as that. Noone forces you to do anything. Take a frame that can't nuke nor stunlock and voila. I play it that way and it's fun, and reap rewards the same way as someone who's "efficient".

I'm also not a fan of camping for example, only because you can, doesn't mean you must. I see it in arbitrations on a daily basis. I've done hours in survival there without camping and got the rewards as "efficient" as a camper. The camper may like the way to play like that, but I don't, so I don't. 

You're just restating your claim, which doesn't really refute anything I said. Yeah, you CAN just not use the meta, but the point is that you shouldn't have to gimp yourself to have fun in a video game. DMC is still perfectly enjoyable at the height of its gameplay as it is when you're a complete noob just starting out. Warframe isn't. That's an issue that should be addressed.

8 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

And yeah, I disagree, since even in DmC you can just blinds mash buttons and still win. I tried. 

Point being?

Button mashing is hardly the most efficient way to play, unless you're playing 2, which is what my comparison was about.

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vor 3 Minuten schrieb Loza03:

You're just restating your claim, which doesn't really refute anything I said. Yeah, you CAN just not use the meta, but the point is that you shouldn't have to gimp yourself to have fun in a video game. DMC is still perfectly enjoyable at the height of its gameplay as it is when you're a complete noob just starting out. Warframe isn't. That's an issue that should be addressed.

Point being?

Button mashing is hardly the most efficient way to play, unless you're playing 2, which is what my comparison was about.

I see how it's being addressed,.. constant staggers/knockdown/nullifieing in the Vallis, and it's not fun. It's forced "gimping" by the devs, which is stupid. But that's the only thing they can do without angering the majority of their game by just blindly nerfing everything.

Like I said I see no issue, since I've been enjoying the game for almost 5 years almost non-stop (I play fallout in between) and I'm happy. 

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I can't even remember the last thing that's been nerfed.

The last major change I remember was for Saryn and she's absolutely busted now.

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

I see how it's being addressed,.. constant staggers/knockdown/nullifieing in the Vallis, and it's not fun. It's forced "gimping" by the devs, which is stupid. But that's the only thing they can do without angering the majority of their game by just blindly nerfing everything. 

Like I said I see no issue, since I've been enjoying the game for almost 5 years almost non-stop (I play fallout in between) and I'm happy. 

This is a non-seqitur since, again, this has nothing to do with my point that the high-end should be fun, and it's reductionist. The issue with the OV enemies isn't their core design (with the major exception of the shield drones), but the code that enemies use causing otherwise well-designed enemies to turn into an unfun mess. many games incorporate challenge by implementing enemies that can limit the player directly, it's not a flawed concept. Warframe fails by not implementing proper systems that enable players to actually react and respond to this.

Continuing the DMC examples, this is similar to the enemies in the reboot that you abjectly cannot attack except by using a specific weapon type, and striking one with even the back swing of an attack (including the wide, sweeping attacks of the 'angel mode' weapons - and these enemies are usually paired so you will need to use these attacks) will cause you to get stunned, often leading to a stun that frequently, you can't be reasonably expected to avoid.

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9 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I don't know if I'd agree with that. Rebellion's ZaT and Strange Brigade have difficulty settings that, imo, make it much more interesting and enjoyable to play. Both are definitely horde games. Tbh, the same applies to pretty much any zombie horde shooter, but then you have several more unique ones like Payday 2, also a horde shooter, in which difficulty is absolutely a factor. New enemies, better loot etc all play a role.

Seeing as how you have more experience in that area, I'll cede that point to you.

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They should get rid of revives in all but solo mode across the board, and player armor, and sprinting, and jumping.  Leave wall latch/dash in.  I'd start a whole new account from nothing for that.

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16 hours ago, Checht said:

Me and my friends have stopped playing Warframe since July 2018 due to the game being too easy.

Not enough bullet sponges past level 100?

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21 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Not enough bullet sponges past level 100?

I think the term "challenge" is preffered. But yeah, to be honest I know what veterans feel, there's really nothing to do for them there except fashion frame but hey, you have a lot of dressing games out there...

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The game can be made harder, if chosen to do so.

1. Equip all 4 dragon keys.
2. Un-equip all mods on everything in Arsenal.
3. Play in Nightmare mission and use Specters as extra enemies.
4. Play in friends or invite or solo mode, and tell everyone in squad to equip all 4 dragon keys and un-equip all mods.

Maybe have a Sortie or Nightmare modifier that require dragon keys or disable all mods.

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Nope, warframe seems to be requiring less and less thought from players with each passing update. DE don't appear comfortable with nerfing anything anymore, and power creep is just running rampant. 

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To those who cannot understand how using meta still can be fun, let me point you to Killing Floor 2. You need a pretty meta team composition to survive. Enemies can be threatening without stunning or taking control away from you. They can be challenging without being bullet sponges. I can elaborate more, but not everybody here has played KF2 so I shall refrain from that

The moment I get my hands on a new warframe or weapon, the first thought shouldn't be how can I gimp my frame to not make the game boring. That is just poor game design in my opinion.

I am just checking in to see if the gameplay challenge issue has been addressed in Warframe. Looks like I will still be staying away until DE (if they do) address this issue.

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3 hours ago, Checht said:

The moment I get my hands on a new warframe or weapon, the first thought shouldn't be how can I gimp my frame to not make the game boring. That is just poor game design in my opinion.

yes. this is true. that being said, there are frames that are innately gimped compared to others. examples I gave were Oberon and Mag, who don't have invuln or perma stealth mechanics, but are still strong in their own way. of course, the problem arises when you're not interested in playing these types of frames. like, if you enjoy the tool kit of an overtuned frame, say Mesa or Saryn, but don't enjoy how easy they make the game. for sure, this has been terrible design. 

this kind of change is slow because it's only pushed by a tiny minority, and it gets buried (aggressively downvoted on reddit) by fanboys/girls who are into fashionframe and ez grinding. 

I am glad that bad endgame is on DE's radar for this year at least. come back in a while. 

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