Defense 4 vs 4 (PvP)

[(XBOX)Humher]

Defense 4 vs 4

- 2 teams one attacks and the other defend

- Change positions every round. Who was attacking now defends and vice versa.

- Each team with up to 4 tennos

- 5 rounds of 4 minutes each

- The team that wins 3 rounds is the winner.

- Revive limited to 4 times if alone or infinitely times if helped by another tenno.

- Mod Rewards, boosters and resources for the winning team.

- League ranking: bronze, silver and gold.

- Rewards proportional to the league.

 

[(XBOX)SmokeSkele]

bro I loath love seige

[WhiteMarker]

Or maybe we don't bother with PvP.
Just stick to PvE and if you want to play PvP, then just play another game. If you want to play PvE, then just return to Warframe.

[KnossosTNC]

Isn't PvP in this game a lost cause?

[BornWithTeeth]

7 minutes ago, KnossosTNC said:

Isn't PvP in this game a lost cause?

Not entirely. I absolutely adore Conclave Annihilation matches on the Lua tilesets.

[KnossosTNC]

47 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Not entirely. I absolutely adore Conclave Annihilation matches on the Lua tilesets.

So... ...not quite dead, but in a coma and breathing through a straw, then?

I've always found it ironic that Digital Extremes, the co-developers of Unreal Tournament 2004, my favourite arena shooter ever and one of just 5 games I've ever rated a perfect 10, couldn't make a successful PvP mode.

Edited February 14, 2019 by KnossosTNC

[BornWithTeeth]

21 minutes ago, KnossosTNC said:

So... ...not quite dead, but in a coma and breathing through a straw, then?

I've always found it ironic that Digital Extremes, the co-developers of Unreal Tournament 2004, my favourite arena shooter ever and one of just 5 games I've ever rated a perfect 10, couldn't make a successful PvP mode.

It’s a combination of there being no dedicated servers so ping is an asymmetrical problem, with the fact that to my knowledge, Unreal Tournament did not feature ninjas who can leap sixty metres, double jump, change direction in mid air, groundslide into a second jump and wall run around the corner, all in less than three seconds.

[KnossosTNC]

10 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

It’s a combination of there being no dedicated servers so ping is an asymmetrical problem, with the fact that to my knowledge, Unreal Tournament did not feature ninjas who can leap sixty metres, double jump, change direction in mid air, groundslide into a second jump and wall run around the corner, all in less than three seconds.

Ah, P2P. The killjoy of every PvP game.

UT2K4 might not be quite as mobile as Warframe, but it was still pretty bloody mobile. It did have double jump (and even quad jump with mutator), along with dashing, wall-dodging and other moves.

Just saying, DE have experience with these things.

Edited February 14, 2019 by KnossosTNC

[(XBOX)Humher]

4 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

Or maybe we don't bother with PvP.
Just stick to PvE and if you want to play PvP, then just play another game. If you want to play PvE, then just return to Warframe.

allow me to disagree

There is room for both PvE and PvP.

different game modes that can appeal to different player profiles.

If you do not like PvP, just do not access this game mode.

[WhiteMarker]

Just now, (XB1)Humher said:

allow me to disagree

There is room for both PvE and PvP.

different game modes that can appeal to different player profiles.

If you do not like PvP, just do not access this game mode.

As we know PvP doesn't work for Warframe.
DE's numbers show this pretty clearly. They shouldn't waste time on PvP and work more on PvE.

[(XBOX)Humher]

53 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

As we know PvP doesn't work for Warframe.
DE's numbers show this pretty clearly. They shouldn't waste time on PvP and work more on PvE.

You're right.

But perhaps PvP has not yet grown for lack of a good game mode.

Maybe if we have a pvp mode that is attractive, we have more players interested.

[WhiteMarker]

14 minutes ago, (XB1)Humher said:

You're right.

But perhaps PvP has not yet grown for lack of a good game mode.

Maybe if we have a pvp mode that is attractive, we have more players interested.

But attractiveness is subjective.
And no, hyped up stuff like battle royal isn't attractive.

There were different versions of PvP in Warframe already. So far they all failed. It's likely that any other version of PvP will fail aswell.
Warframe is a PvE game. DE knows how to do PvE (somewhat). They don't know how to do proper PvP. And the Warframe community doesn't care about PvP. (Sure, a stupidly small minority likes Warframe's PvP. Nobody cares about that fraction of a fraction)
It's just wasted Dev-time and money if there goes significant work into PvP. PvE is what keeps the game alive. That's what DE should care about, and as we see from Patch History it is what DE cares about.

[Kontrollo]

5 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

... It’s a combination of there being no dedicated servers so ping is an asymmetrical problem ...

3 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

As we know PvP doesn't work for Warframe.
DE's numbers show this pretty clearly. ...

I'm sure you guys can back that up. 🙄

[Wrikster]

14 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

It’s a combination of there being no dedicated servers so ping is an asymmetrical problem, with the fact that to my knowledge, Unreal Tournament did not feature ninjas who can leap sixty metres, double jump, change direction in mid air, groundslide into a second jump and wall run around the corner, all in less than three seconds.

And that's not something a regenerating stamina bar can fix?

[Wrikster]

10 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

And the Warframe community doesn't care about PvP. (Sure, a stupidly small minority likes Warframe's PvP. Nobody cares about that fraction of a fraction)

Disagree. The "Warframe players don't care about PvP" narrative is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Players don't care about PvP because it's bad. It's bad because DE doesn't devote enough time, attention and resources to it. They don't devote enough time, attention and resources to it because people don't play it. It's a vicious cycle of indifference. Every week I see two or three new players in region chat asking where they can find the PvP, and the answer from region is always "Don't bother". Infact, I'd go so far as to suggest that the PvP-hating part of the community is the (rather vocal) minority. Most players are indifferent.
 

10 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

There were different versions of PvP in Warframe already. So far they all failed. It's likely that any other version of PvP will fail aswell.

Not necessarily. Just because other versions of PvP have failed doesn't mean that PvP as a concept is destined to fail. What's needed is to identify the reasons why PvP failed and work towards fixing those problems.
 

10 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

It's just wasted Dev-time and money if there goes significant work into PvP. PvE is what keeps the game alive. That's what DE should care about, and as we see from Patch History it is what DE cares about.

Right. DE has never wasted time and money on pointless things like collectible space plushies and mods that make flowers grow on your enemies.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Wrikster
grammar and formatting

[BornWithTeeth]

12 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

I'm sure you guys can back that up. 🙄

I mean, yes? Conclave has only had dedicated servers for a couple years, and those servers are not run or provided by DE. Conclave these days is better than it was before...but I still get laggy matches, more often than if I were playing the likes of Overwatch.

 

Conclave is good, and I’m not saying ‘get rid of it! No more PvP content.’ However, Conclave is not perfect and exempt from all criticism, and, and this is important, criticising an aspect of Conclave is not an attack on people who enjoy the Conclave.

[(XBOX)Humher]

I will probably receive a lot of criticism for the comment I am going to make.

I do not think we need new Warframes, mods or weapons. We have enough.

After a while playing Warframe, in addition to the missions getting repetitive, you become so strong, you get the feeling of lack of challenge.

Investment in PvE should focus on new game modes, missions, enemies and more difficult bosses.

And PvP is a niche that should be better explored.

Warframe has the potential to build incredible PvP modes, which would attract many players.

When playing against a npc brings no more challenges, you wish challenging a real player as strong as you.

 

[Kontrollo]

4 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I mean, yes? Conclave has only had dedicated servers for a couple years, and those servers are not run or provided by DE. Conclave these days is better than it was before...but I still get laggy matches, more often than if I were playing the likes of Overwatch.

Of course it depends on what's available near you (if any; "normal" hosting is still the fallback), and if you're on a console you're still out of luck, but that's not what I was aiming at.

I've seen quite a few people now -- WhiteMarker among them -- who seem like they don't know that the following thread exists, and how these servers work:

And it has been there for over two years now.

Also, if you click on that thread and read the QA at the bottom of the OP, this might be useful knowledge for when Trials are making a comeback, too.

[BornWithTeeth]

@Kontrollo

Right...but clearly I did know about Conclave’s compatibility with community servers, and I was and am pointing out that it’s not a perfect solution.

[Kontrollo]

Then don't literally say that there are no dedicated servers. lol

I hope I've made myself clear by now on how hard it is to get anything across around here.

 

On another note:

8 hours ago, Wrikster said:

And that's not something a regenerating stamina bar can fix?

Yeah, about that... that's another one that goes back for years. Short answer: it's probably just going to make it even more brutal for newcomers, and it'd be yet another thing that'd be different between PvE and PvP.

[Wrikster]

3 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Yeah, about that... that's another one that goes back for years. Short answer: it's probably just going to make it even more brutal for newcomers, and it'd be yet another thing that'd be different between PvE and PvP.

But has it been tried yet? I've been playing Warframe for about a year now so I honestly don't know. Why would it probably be more brutal for newcomers when they're the ones who are not used to completing a bullet-jump, a double jump, an aim-glide and then a slide in under two seconds? Wouldn't it be more accessible to them if they can see the advanced movement as just a bonus to their movement speed from other games instead of a nerf from PvE? If anything, it's the veterans who would be slightly inconvenienced. Unless by "newcomers" you mean new to the Conclave. But even if you do mean that, Conclave veterans will face the same restrictions since it will be a global restriction.

This is one idea I suggested in the post I made a few days ago (which no-one responded to T_T):
 

Quote

To avoid players bullet-jumping all over the map, advanced movement will have a regenerating stamina bar. This includes: bullet jumping, aim-gliding, wall-running and wall-latching. Double jump and roll are not affected by stamina bar. To compensate for the extreme parkour, maps will be slightly bigger and more open.

Basically, all movement techniques that use your gravity powers will require the stamina bar. This will enforce a slightly slower and more deliberate and measured playstyle. You can still double-jump, slide and roll to your heart's content. Advanced movement getting nerfed will make it a bit harder to learn, but the overall annoyance factor will be greatly reduced, since trying to shoot an enemy will no longer be like trying to bring down a fly by spitting on it. Learning to not spam movement won't be hard I think, I do it all the time when I'm playing Limbo or atleast, it won't have a different difficulty for vets and newbies, since everyone will be at the same starting line.

Feel free to give this a read if you want. I still haven't decided on how to address Warframe abilities, but other than that this pretty much tackles all other problems I have personally faced in the Conclave.

 

[Kontrollo]

14 minutes ago, Wrikster said:

But has it been tried yet? I've been playing Warframe for about a year now so I honestly don't know. Why would it probably be more brutal for newcomers when they're the ones who are not used to completing a bullet-jump, a double jump, an aim-glide and then a slide in under two seconds? Wouldn't it be more accessible to them if they can see the advanced movement as just a bonus to their movement speed from other games instead of a nerf from PvE?

Newcomers to Conclave, not to the game. There already are a few complaints here and there because the current movement system in Conclave is a bit toned down from what you can do in PvE.

Doesn't stop some people to take it to its limits. Example (old now, not sure if it's still exactly the same):

 

Now imagine there was yet another resource around which to optimise.

 

Edit: By the way, I've read it. But I'm not active anymore at the moment and tend to not respond to new suggestions.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Kontrollo

[Wrikster]

4 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Doesn't stop some people to take it to its limits. Example:

I watched the full video, and I don't see how this is a problem.
Because: 1) Most of these super-advanced techniques have bullet-jumping in them. So if you can't bullet jump freely, it makes these sort of pointless. How much stamina a bullet jump consumes can be decided on by the community and DE. And as I said in my post, all Conclave mods will be removed. (Ok now that I think about it I only implied mods being removed from weapons. I'll edit it). Everyone will be on a level playing field.

2) Just because a couple of players can do insane stuff like this doesn't mean we should balance the game around them. Quake had everyone rocket-jumping all over the map, and that didn't stop it from becoming one of the greatest PvP games of all time. The changes I suggested are vastly more restrictive than rocket jumping. Besides, it would be far better than whatever we have now. Just because a solution is not a miracle cure doesn't mean that it shouldn't be considered at all.

 

11 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Now imagine there was yet another resource around which to optimise.

And as I said, there will be no mods. It will be a game of pure skill. Your loadout won't matter. Your (lack of) mods won't matter. To make it more accessible to newcomers, every warfframe can be made decently tanky. Tank frames even more so. You won't be able to optimise your stamina.

[Kontrollo]

11 minutes ago, Wrikster said:

And as I said, there will be no mods. It will be a game of pure skill. Your loadout won't matter. Your (lack of) mods won't matter. To make it more accessible to newcomers, every warfframe can be made decently tanky. Tank frames even more so. You won't be able to optimise your stamina.

You won't be able to optimise your stamina, but you would be able to optimise around it is what I'm saying. And it'd be different from PvE, so yet another thing to learn.

The gameplay would be different from what it is now, of course. But those who play it more would have a distinct advantage. Even now, top players don't need to bounce around like crazy. Just watch this (and the other guy is by no means a newbie):

Spoiler

 

 

What people don't seem to understand is that mobility is a double-edged blade. You have to compensate with your aim for both your and your target's movement. If you want to win, at least. Just running away wins no games.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Kontrollo
typo

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Humher said:

When playing against a npc brings no more challenges, you wish challenging a real player as strong as you.

Not true for most players. Heck I've been here for 4 years and I'm not tired of the same old missions and enemies yet.

Besides, if I wanted to play a PVP game or mode, I'd go play any other game that has it. Same for the majority of the WF community.

We play WF because it's a PVE horde shooter, not because it has PVP.