Merge Chanelling with Heavy Attack

[xGryphus]

Melee 3.0 is suppose to turn Channeling into some crazy Devil May Cry-ish "super mode". Rather than that I would love to see Chanelling simply woven into Heavy Attack.

From what we know so far, that Heavy Attacks will use up some combo counter for more damage. Considering that Channeling Efficiency would affect that while other mods would simply activate on Heavy Attacks i.e:
- Life Strike would steal life only on Heavy Attacks; 
- Corrupt Charge would increase damage for Heavy Attacks only;
- Quickening would increase speed of Heavy Attack wind-up.

Moreover, upcoming directional variant of Slam Attack is suppose to be treated as Heavy Attack as well. Hopefully some Heavy Attacks will be woven into combos.

All things together, this would create a system that seamlessly merges with gamplay, without the need of additional keybinds.

[Naftal]

No. No more mods that affect only one type of attack.

Melee 1.0 charge mods and now maiming strike make it so that you only use that one attack you modded for.

[Dishonored]

Channeling are kinda useless anyway
 

21 minutes ago, xGryphus said:

- Quickening would increase speed of Heavy Attack wind-up.

 

21 minutes ago, xGryphus said:

- Life Strike would steal life only on Heavy Attacks; 

^ at-least both of these can be synergize together.

Imagine redeemer prime with fast charge attack + 20% Lifesteal

[-S-O--Sephiroth-Crescent]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb HEA-Devazone:

Channeling are kinda useless anyway
 

 

^ at-least both of these can be synergize together.

Imagine redeemer prime with fast charge attack + 20% Lifesteal

tbh dont have ANY space left for that on my redeemerprime xD

 

[Kainosh]

18 minutes ago, Naftal said:

Melee 1.0 charge mods and now maiming strike make it so that you only use that one attack you modded for

That is just because its was done wrong.   

 If normal attacks are used to generate "fuel" for Heavy attacks,   they WILL be used no matter if you mod for Heavy attack or not.   

 As alternative, you can mod for Normal attacks by using Combo counter mods.  In that case, using Heavy attacks will reduce your normal attack damage as it will lower combo counter.

If balanced properly, its totally ok.   DE just have to make sure that Normal attack build with average amount of Combo counter do not outperform  Heavy attack builds by much.

 

About Heavy attacks....

I think:

• If Heavy attack is used mid combo, it must function like channeling.   Example: AAA = 3 hit combo.  ABB = Same 3 hit combo, but 2 last strikes are slower and deliver Heavy attack mod effects.    
• It must be different for every weapon type. Example:   AAB Sword = 2normal + 1heavy strike.   AAB Gunblade = 2slashes + Shot.    AAB Warfan = 2slashes + radial wirlwind slash
• Using Heavy attacks for Slam, Slide, Wall, Roll, Aerial attacks should trigger different effects (Similar to Baruuk's push/pull slam)
• Starting Combo with Heavy attack ( BAA and such) will perform different, heavy combo instead.  I think weapons need 4 normal and 2 heavy combos. 

[Urlan]

27 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

That is just because its was done wrong.   

 If normal attacks are used to generate "fuel" for Heavy attacks,   they WILL be used no matter if you mod for Heavy attack or not.   

 As alternative, you can mod for Normal attacks by using Combo counter mods.  In that case, using Heavy attacks will reduce your normal attack damage as it will lower combo counter.

If balanced properly, its totally ok.   DE just have to make sure that Normal attack build with average amount of Combo counter do not outperform  Heavy attack builds by much.

 

About Heavy attacks....

I think:

• If Heavy attack is used mid combo, it must function like channeling.   Example: AAA = 3 hit combo.  ABB = Same 3 hit combo, but 2 last strikes are slower and deliver Heavy attack mod effects.    
• It must be different for every weapon type. Example:   AAB Sword = 2normal + 1heavy strike.   AAB Gunblade = 2slashes + Shot.    AAB Warfan = 2slashes + radial wirlwind slash
• Using Heavy attacks for Slam, Slide, Wall, Roll, Aerial attacks should trigger different effects (Similar to Baruuk's push/pull slam)
• Starting Combo with Heavy attack ( BAA and such) will perform different, heavy combo instead.  I think weapons need 4 normal and 2 heavy combos. 

One thing to keep in mind, that unless it has changed from the last show, combo counters don't effect normal melee attacks, only are charged up by active melee and then spent on heavy strikes for a boost that spends the combo counter, needing it to be charged back up. The trade-off was that combo counter will charge up faster. The Heavy strikes last time have animation similar to a charge attack so its not something that last shown would easily slot into the two combo per weapon stance.

[Kainosh]

7 minutes ago, Urlan said:

combo counters don't effect normal melee attacks

I know. It was just a very early and very lame demo anyway. A "subject to change" material.

Personally,  i would keep that feature. Mods need rebalance, and Combo counter mechanic need tweaks....but that "get more damage for longer chain" is a nice mechanic.  Wasteful to just throw it away.

Primaries/secondaries have pretty cool variation. Alt fire modes, Scope bonuses and such....    It would be sad if Melee were only "get Combo counter and Spend it on Heavy attack".  Especially if its same for every weapon type.... I hope they will be different.

 

 

[CrystalWitch]

On 2019-02-15 at 6:53 AM, Kainosh said:

I know. It was just a very early and very lame demo anyway. A "subject to change" material.

Personally,  i would keep that feature. Mods need rebalance, and Combo counter mechanic need tweaks....but that "get more damage for longer chain" is a nice mechanic.  Wasteful to just throw it away.

Primaries/secondaries have pretty cool variation. Alt fire modes, Scope bonuses and such....    It would be sad if Melee were only "get Combo counter and Spend it on Heavy attack".  Especially if its same for every weapon type.... I hope they will be different.

 

 

5

Well, they said melee weapons were going to be getting damage tweaks through 3.0, so who knows?

Personally though, I honestly hope they get rid of things like Maiming Strike's "Spin 2 Win" mentality.

Because then that's all you do. You just spin the weapon to get crits. Toss on Range/Range+Range Riven get to an open area and just spin around to clear everything, there's no nuance to it and it's not fun to play with in my opinion.

Get more of a kick using timed button presses to stab a Nikana at something.

And Channeling... please.... it's... honestly not worth any amount of investment right now.

[Andele3025]

Nah, channeling attacks should just be converted to more corrupted melee mods (Enduring Strike & True Punishment) and basic/universal effects (Life Strike, Dispatch Overdrive and Focused Defense).

As far as the year old heavy attack thing, we arent sure if that wasnt discarded since a logical place to implement it would have been now with the control change pass of melee 3.0.
Hell maybe we will also get blessed with the removal of or flat timing gap for pause attacks while making charge attacks work like MGRR Sam ones (only on holding the one attack we do and will have past part 1).

[Kainosh]

On 2019-02-15 at 2:46 PM, xGryphus said:

Melee 3.0 is suppose to turn Channeling into some crazy Devil May Cry-ish "super mode". Rather than that I would love to see Chanelling simply woven into Heavy Attack.

I agree.   

Never liked "devil triggers"... Usually its just a self buff that makes enemies easy to deal with.   Barely used this even in DMC games.

I would prefer simple and good "Heavy attacks"

6 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

making charge attacks work like MGRR Sam ones

A good example.  That is how "heavy" attacks should function when woven into combos...there would be no charge time tho...it would be instant coz its on a separate button.

Gunblade example: 

1) Normal combos do not include gunfire.  When Heavy attack is used in the combo, Shot happens when Blade hits the target (simultaneously with Melee attack)

2) If Heavy attack is performed separately (not during combo), then you just Fire it like normal gun untill your Combo counter runs out (fuel for heavy attacks)

Seems legit to me.

Would balance out Gunblades too...since to chagre em up for firing you will need to swing a bit.   Because now these are just used as guns.

 

[Andele3025]

16 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

A good example.  That is how "heavy" attacks should function when woven into combos...there would be no charge time tho...it would be instant coz its on a separate button.

Gunblade example: 

1) Normal combos do not include gunfire.  When Heavy attack is used in the combo, Shot happens when Blade hits the target (simultaneously with Melee attack)

2) If Heavy attack is performed separately (not during combo), then you just Fire it like normal gun untill your Combo counter runs out (fuel for heavy attacks)

Seems legit to me.

Would balance out Gunblades too...since to chagre em up for firing you will need to swing a bit.   Because now these are just used as guns.

 

Actually no, MGRR sam heavy attacks are charged (true its a different button in MGRR but thats due to other mechanics restricting key flexibility for consoles), for warframe it would easily be introduced as a press timer with options slider (after x ms value does a light attack press without release count as a heavy attack). The part thats relevant is that they go off no matter when you release them instead of being static and actually have gameplay influence instead of being a diagonal wet fart hit that some stances base attacks outdamage compared to current charge attacks.

As far as the heavy attack using combo, i still think combo will be shifted to DT usage.

[Loza03]

3 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Never liked "devil triggers"... Usually its just a self buff that makes enemies easy to deal with.   Barely used this even in DMC games.

I would prefer simple and good "Heavy attacks"

Why not both? Pull a Bayonetta 2 and have powerful super attacks and Devil Trigger run on the same resource, similar to Torture Attacks vs Umbran Climax.

Both playstyles are rewarded and it adds some more diversity and depth to the combat system.

[Teridax68]

I completely agree with the OP. Heavy attacks as they seem to be implemented in Melee 3.0 seem to match up pretty well to what players expect out of channeling: the player is infusing a portion of their power into their weapon for an extra-powerful strike, and so in a manner that is bound to feel much more impressive than the current press-a-button-for-shiny mechanic. If heavy attacks made our weapon glow, we could have the best of both worlds in one neat package.

On top of this, I question the utility of a Devil Trigger-type mode in Warframe. Operator 1.0 wasn't that popular due to the heavy downtime, and atmospheric Archwing weapons themselves feel completely redundant as a weapon power-up. Time will tell what the mechanic will look like, but what I really don't want is for the mechanic to be the exact same across multiple melee weapons: I already feel like there's too much homogeneity to melee weapons when so many of them are just empty husks that use the same animation set via stances, and doubling down on that with some cover-all super mode I think risks detracting even further from our customization choices.

[Kainosh]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Why not both?

Bayonetta.....while it has More weapons and moves....i cant say that its better than DMC or MGR even.   Feels less refined...and less balanced.   Quantity vs Quality.

 

I will say it simple :

If "devil trigger" will allow me to aim my melee strikes at Boss weakspots and hit em reliably, then YES, Gimme (Like MGR blade mode)

If "devil trigger" is just a time limited "channeling" or self buff.....Fuc it. Dont need buffs to kill creeps a bit faster.

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Bayonetta.....while it has More weapons and moves....i cant say that its better than DMC or MGR even.   Feels less refined...and less balanced.   Quantity vs Quality.

 

I will say it simple :

If "devil trigger" will allow me to aim my melee strikes at Boss weakspots and hit em reliably, then YES, Gimme (Like MGR blade mode)

If "devil trigger" is just a time limited "channeling" or self buff.....Fuc it. Dont need buffs to kill creeps a bit faster.

I mean, sure I prefer DMC to Bayo, but that doesn't mean that ideas from there can't get implemented. And as far as I'm concerned, this seems like a good idea. Hell, MGR implements this too - Ripper Mode and Blade Mode both use the same gauge as well.

Thing is, I want this Devil Trigger like mechanic. It sounds right up my alley. It isn't necessarily super helpful, but I like that kind of thing - to get a big surge of extra power. I see getting both as an option to satisfy both groups and add more choices to the flow of combat. You get a fancy attack and I get my Devil Trigger.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Not sure how DE is going to balance these "burst mode" types. Melee 2.0 seems to be balance around having a constant 2.5 multiplier. No doubt it's going to be balance around the burst mode. So anytime a player is not in burst mode, they're being punish. 

[Kainosh]

15 hours ago, Loza03 said:

You get a fancy attack and I get my Devil Trigger.

You missed the point.   I do not need "fancy" moves.  

I want to avoid anything unnecessary... things that are "fancy" but do not really add anything to the game mechanic-wise. 

Again, I dont mind Devil Trigger as long as its not just a simple self buff and adds interesting mechanics to the game. 

And i do not need any "heavy attacks" if these do not trigger new combos or allow me to do something that is impossible with just normal strikes. 

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, Kainosh said:

You missed the point.   I do not need "fancy" moves.  

I want to avoid anything unnecessary... things that are "fancy" but do not really add anything to the game mechanic-wise. 

Again, I dont mind Devil Trigger as long as its not just a simple self buff and adds interesting mechanics to the game. 

And i do not need any "heavy attacks" if these do not trigger new combos or allow me to do something that is impossible with just normal strikes. 

Well, when I said fancy attacks I meant more in the sense of larger attacks that add more to the combat. Like Wicked Weaves/Torture attacks, Zandatsu, Vergil's sword formations etc, or maybe Musou attacks. Warframe's occupying an odd position between Dynasty Warriors and Devil May Cry after all.

Giving Devil trigger special effects would be interesting, and I'd like it, but that's not really the focus of this discussion.