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Space0ddity

if warframe playstyles are all hyper-agressive and extremely mobile...

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I've been of the mind that De should actually release a new enemy unit along the line of the Nox, Bursa, Juggernaut, and Maniacs specific to each prior and new frame as a counter to their kit,... so when someone spams enough kills in a team (Not SOLO unless the player hits a 1000 kills easily) they arrives so the battle stops being so one sided...

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Just now, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

I've been of the mind that De should actually release a new enemy unit along the line of the Nox, Bursa, Juggernaut, and Maniacs specific to each prior and new frame as a counter to their kit,... so when someone spams enough kills in a team (Not SOLO unless the player hits a 1000 kills easily) they arrives so the battle stops being so one sided...

pretty good idea but needs to be like a lots stronger,i like it a lot tho,upboated

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2 hours ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

I've been of the mind that De should actually release a new enemy unit along the line of the Nox, Bursa, Juggernaut, and Maniacs specific to each prior and new frame as a counter to their kit,... so when someone spams enough kills in a team (Not SOLO unless the player hits a 1000 kills easily) they arrives so the battle stops being so one sided...

Why would the battle not be one sided given there would be 3 other frames that aren't countered by that miniboss?

Manics were very dangerous. Hard to hit. Often went invisible, at certain damage gates and more. You had to pay attention to hear the laughing and people would group up because they could very much down you with a leap attack of theirs.

The players had a hissy fit and they were nerfed hard. You claim to want these enemies, but everyone else doesn't want them.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

I've been of the mind that De should actually release a new enemy unit along the line of the Nox, Bursa, Juggernaut, and Maniacs specific to each prior and new frame as a counter to their kit,... so when someone spams enough kills in a team (Not SOLO unless the player hits a 1000 kills easily) they arrives so the battle stops being so one sided...

The community would lose its collective mind over this. 

While I like it, you can't have that kind of unit in your general play because of how casual friendly the game is.  Maybe, maybe, having a special node or Syndicate beacon that lures these units would work, but it would have to be in private lobbies only.  

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1 minute ago, MagPrime said:

The community would lose its collective mind over this. 

While I like it, you can't have that kind of unit in your general play because of how casual friendly the game is.  Maybe, maybe, having a special node or Syndicate beacon that lures these units would work, but it would have to be in private lobbies only.  

you absolutely can just as long as you can see the attacks coming

ds3 enemy: prepares hard to avoid and powerful rollcatching attack,nukes hp accordingly

wf enemy: removes hp with no warning,manics teleport to you upon hp removal.

 

warframe enemies NEVER shoot or slash you,they just simply remove your hp values

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Just now, Space0ddity said:

you absolutely can just as long as you can see the attacks coming

ds3 enemy: prepares hard to avoid and powerful rollcatching attack,nukes hp accordingly

wf enemy: removes hp with no warning,manics teleport to you upon hp removal.

 

warframe enemies NEVER shoot or slash you,they just simply remove your hp values

If you believe that the community wouldn't start burning down the forums over an enemy unit that forces them to be prepared or pay close attention, you don't know the community well enough.

 

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Just now, MagPrime said:

If you believe that the community wouldn't start burning down the forums over an enemy unit that forces them to be prepared or pay close attention, you don't know the community well enough.

 

i don't think they ever fought a wf enemy that was legit fair to fight

ofc they'd burn down the forums of the enemy wasnt just a damage god but also hard to kill or vice reversa

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1 minute ago, Space0ddity said:

i don't think they ever fought a wf enemy that was legit fair to fight

ofc they'd burn down the forums of the enemy wasnt just a damage god but also hard to kill or vice reversa

Can you expand on that first line; what do you consider to be a fair fight in Warframe?

(it's just vice versa, not reversa *Hermione Granger face*)

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13 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Can you expand on that first line; what do you consider to be a fair fight in Warframe?

(it's just vice versa, not reversa *Hermione Granger face*)

eidolons are some of the first enemies in the entire game to have telegraphed attacks and still maintain difficulty

the sheer size of their abilities makes it feel like i can actually dodge them with my own skill

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il y a 14 minutes, Space0ddity a dit :

i don't think they ever fought a wf enemy that was legit fair to fight

ofc they'd burn down the forums of the enemy wasnt just a damage god but also hard to kill or vice reversa

Actually. A lot of ppl still complain about the Vallis enemies since they are so god damn powerful on higher levels.

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5 minutes ago, Space0ddity said:

eidolons are some of the first enemies in the entire game to have telegraphed attacks and still maintain difficulty

the sheer size of their abilities makes it feel like i can actually dodge them with my own skill

Those are some of the most boring enemies in the game.  

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5 minutes ago, Space0ddity said:

eidolons are some of the first enemies in the entire game to have telegraphed attacks and still maintain difficulty

the sheer size of their abilities makes it feel like i can actually dodge them with my own skill

You keep making comparisons to Dark Souls. Warframe will never be Dark Souls.

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8 hours ago, (PS4)watt4hem said:

Don't they have a damage cap so you can't one shot them?

Nope my Exergis one shots them easily even without Magnetize

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8 hours ago, (PS4)watt4hem said:

Don't they have a damage cap so you can't one shot them?

Not unless that was a recent addition.  

I think the Tyl Manics do though, but not the ones from the old Raid or general mission ones. 

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13 hours ago, MagPrime said:

Grineer Manic's are pretty close to what you're wanting.

To bad they're restricted to defection and one boss fight now, miss the old days when they could spawn in any mission

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11 hours ago, RX-3DR said:

The question would be, how do you mechanically implement it? The general problem with creating enemies to counter a certain playstyle is that identifying and coming up with ideas is only a quarter of the solution. An example of this is how Nullifiers are designed to counter Ability spamming. Just look at the results of it, functionally, they do a pretty weak job because they're really only a good counter to a specific scenario, completely blind Ability spam, for only two factions. Meanwhile, their reception was treated as if Satan has summoned into a sheep's pen because people found out that sitting in a corner and pressing 4 wasn't in the design manifesto.

Aggression doesn't mean anything if they are dead before the doors even open. They need to be resistant or immune to CC and ability nukes before aggression takes place.

Mobility is hard to properly implement as it is very difficult to route enemies to hop from wall to wall to chase us down. The Manic is essentially the most viable mobile enemy to implement and improving it is either a coding and clipping nightmare as it flies through walls, floors and doors to chase you down, or is literally just running the enemy on a higher playback speed.

High damage is what Ballistas are supposed to be. Problem is once again, having just damage alone doesn't mean anything as the enemy might not be able to use it. Making them deal that damage quickly and accurately would just create a frustrating experience while having a slow telegraphed melee charge will just result in the enemy dying before it gets to do anything or people just running past them with no ability for them to catch up. It's a very specific balance game to play and some enemies do it right but it's mostly the larger, semi-boss status enemies that do because the expectation on what they can do and the damage they can take is a lot higher.

Bigger enemies doesn't really mean anything besides easier to hit and a corridor nightmare. Having a Butcher that is triple the size of a Bombard is still a Butcher. The only difference is that it would either have to clip his head through every ceiling or get completely stopped by a doorway because he's too tall to fit.

The constant "improve enemy AI" idea is always a pointless one at this stage. Improving the AI will never amount to anything in the current state. Enemies need to do more against us in the first place before they can even devise ways to do it. Just put yourself in the shoes of the AI director for spawning and routing enemies, what would you do to take down a squad of 4 players? If it involves literally revolves around massive amounts 3 specific units, the problem is beyond AI.

Ultimately, enemies need to be able to do things before any design elements can come into play rather than just dying or staying stuck in the other room.

I just need to say that nullifiers don't really counter ability spamming, unless of course they drop on your head with the bubble already up. I've found them to be more of an issue for my mobile frames because they cancel abilities that have already been cast. This is particularly the case in the orb vallis, where at times multiple classes of enemy can seemingly generate nullifier bubbles. Combine that with conflicting visual effects and you've got virtually hidden nullifiers. Everywhere. That isn't fun, and for me, it actually discourages a mobile playstyle.

What I think would be an interesting alternative is a much more agile class of enemies, similar to hyenas and manics, that are able to parkour, cling to walls, and shoot at us from unusual angles. Perhaps they would also be able to dispel warframe abilities with their melee attacks and/or certain telegraphed ranged attacks. I think that sort of thing would perform a lot better at keeping players on their toes than just giving enemies a big bubble.

Mobility may be difficult to implement, but we already have enemy and ally types in the game that are highly mobile, so there is a solid foundation already in place for adding more.

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14 hours ago, Space0ddity said:

why don't we have enemies that counter this mobility more?

by 'counter' i'm talking about enemies that:

1。are  as aggressive as the players,literally never stop rushing in and attacking

2。are as mobile as the players,and can catch them,allowing us to get that visceral 'bully breathing down the back of your neck' feeling

3。have extremely high damage,but only as a counter to mindless agression(ie。 an enemy that reacts to immobile players with a rush of melee swipes that forces them to dodge)

Stalker Classic had these. It's why I'm so disappointed that we are stuck with the objectively-inferior Shadow Stalker for the rest of eternity

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1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

You keep making comparisons to Dark Souls. Warframe will never be Dark Souls.

Forget Dark Soul type play.  Everything in DS boils down to roll and try to get a backstab.  

I would much prefer methods like in Nier:Automata and Bayonetta type interactions myself.  😁 

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21 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Forget Dark Soul type play.  Everything in DS boils down to roll and try to get a backstab.  

I would much prefer methods like in Nier:Automata and Bayonetta type interactions myself.  😁 

mostly thinking of ds3/bloodborne here

 

just about every enemy in those two is a grineer manic basically

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I guess under the right circumstances you can get stunlocked pretty easily by bursa/eximus knockdown spam and/or scorpion/ancient tripline spam, but most players do not find that fun in any conceivable way. CC is fun to use, but it's awful when used against you. It really ruins the gaming experience when you're getting whittled down because you can't move.

The primary reason you dont see enemies like you want is because it runs counter to DE's design philosophy for the game. Past a certain point, we're supposed to be gods able to faceroll hordes of enemies. We're supposed to be overpowered. That's part of what makes this game so inviting to a huge number of players: the power fantasy.

I've seen some of your other posts: you're clearly a high-level gamer. You're gud. Gudder than the majority of Warframe players. Unfortunately this means you have to deal with the game not being entirely challenging for you. This game has to appeal to the broadest swath of players possible in order to remain viable, and the kind of enemies you desire will not be tolerated by that large swatch. As you've already been told, Manics used to act like you want them to, but the community railed against it and got it changed. You are in a very, very small minority.

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16 hours ago, MagPrime said:

Grineer Manic's are pretty close to what you're wanting.

 

16 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Haven't done the Orb Mother fight have you?

 

I feel like its more about normal infantry and their "pace".  Every enemy in this game is way too slow... 

  They dont try to get away from the line of fire.   Or jump away from explosives and sht even if they see it coming.

   Their "bayonet strike" is a laugh...just like all of their melee attacks. You can avoid getting hit without actually Dodging. Just walk away and it will miss.  

    They can jump 20 meters upwards, but their running speed is a joke...Especially when they are under fire...just jog...not even ducking. They cant fire weapons while runnin.

     They do not try to wake up sleeping enemies....and they do not try to avoid lingering damage effects. None of them. Even "smart" ones.

      

Gap in speed is too big. And AI is hella weak.    And "Heavy" units have no special resistances, and get full duration stuns and disables. Makes killing them way too easy.

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17 hours ago, Space0ddity said:

are  as aggressive as the players,literally never stop rushing in and attacking

..which can easily be countered by our very fast melee attacks, especially with the new system that DE are working on. the moment an enemy tries to rush in, you go full blender mode: problem solved, without really having to think.

17 hours ago, Space0ddity said:

are as mobile as the players,and can catch them,allowing us to get that visceral 'bully breathing down the back of your neck' feeling

no need; enemies can warp rooms after a while. say you trigger a Bursa in the second room of a Tileset, when you run far away enough, say the 15th room, the Bursa will reappear around the corner. Wardens in rescue missions do this all the time if you don't kill them in the Prison: they appear a few rooms before extraction in one last attempt to kill the hostage, so technically enemies can do this. as for actual high mobility enemies, that's easily countered by one of many CC abilities present on almost every Warframe.

17 hours ago, Space0ddity said:

have extremely high damage,but only as a counter to mindless aggression

if they can only use high-damage attacks against aggressive tactics, what if the player simply stays at range and uses a gun? also, there's a fine line between high damage and OHK BS due to how enemy scaling works in the game. we have snipers that sort of fulfil this role, as well as enemies with Shotguns.

17 hours ago, Space0ddity said:

are actually bigger than us,allowing them to hit us with their attacks (bigger sword bigger hitbox)

Tilesets limit this with things like corridors and rooms with lower ceilings. also size doesn't mean squat when we're killing Eidolons that are like 100ft tall. smaller and faster enemies like Ratels were a step in the right direction, though those things are just more annoying than anything else. you want something that's harder for guns and melee to hit, but then we can still simply use powers to immobilize anything and then take as long as we need to line up a shot or close in with melee.

this is why people will often say that there's no way of balancing the game without considerably nerfing Warframe abilities, and doing that would go completely against the way the game was intended to be. the only means of challenge I see coming to us is (possibly) in railjack; depending on how powerful our Railjack ships are, it could potentially be a more level playing field, where enemies have similar stats and abilities to us and can pose a threat: instead of space ninja vs common soldier, it's just two armed ships fighting in space, on relatively equal ground. that might be where some challenge could reside.

but chances are with railjacks supposedly being customizable, they'll probably have their own mods and our ships will still end up being ridiculously more powerful than any enemy ship, and if that happens, then I guess challenge just can't be put in Warframe, period.

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21 hours ago, Space0ddity said:

why don't we have enemies that counter this mobility more?

by 'counter' i'm talking about enemies that:

1。are  as aggressive as the players,literally never stop rushing in and attacking

2。are as mobile as the players,and can catch them,allowing us to get that visceral 'bully breathing down the back of your neck' feeling

3。have extremely high damage,but only as a counter to mindless agression(ie。 an enemy that reacts to immobile players with a rush of melee swipes that forces them to dodge)

4。 are actually bigger than us,allowing them to hit us with their attacks (bigger sword bigger hitbox)

we've tried everything from damage to bullet sponge to dodging like a madman 

but why not have enemies that have tactics actually suited to the enemy they fight?surely more effective than hiding behind a corner and spraying a water pistol

Go to Fortuna and you'll get exactly what you're talking about. 

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19 hours ago, Genesix6 said:

But not fast enough

Oh, they're fast enough. The problem is you only see one of those per week and he just gets deleted in the crossfire without you realizing he was all over the place before catching a bullet.

Now, imagine an operative defense mission where, say, 25% of incoming enemies are Manics with their AI set to target the operative with extreme prejudice.

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50 minutes ago, ebrl said:

Oh, they're fast enough. The problem is you only see one of those per week and he just gets deleted in the crossfire without you realizing he was all over the place before catching a bullet.

Now, imagine an operative defense mission where, say, 25% of incoming enemies are Manics with their AI set to target the operative with extreme prejudice.

Is it just me or does that actually sound kinda fun in a weirdly maso♂chistic way

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