if warframe playstyles are all hyper-agressive and extremely mobile...

[WindigoTG]

On 2019-02-20 at 12:56 PM, Space0ddity said:

why don't we have enemies that counter this mobility more？

Because the game does not have a competent gamedesigner.

 

It is pretty much the answer to any "why" in the game.

[StarMoral]

I play a lot of Prowl-heavy Ivara that just shoots enemies in the face with Concentrated Arrow. Very very slow, but I take little to no damage while packing a big punch.

I also use a docile Djinn setup that focuses on support for my frame. Healing health and shield, bonus shields, even reviving me when I'm down with Sacrifice and Reawaken.

So honestly, for me, those kinds of enemies wouldn't bother me none. I ain't movin' fast anyway, might as well just take aim and continue bein' an invisible mushroom.

[SgtHotPepper]

Comparing Warframe to DS2 is pointless.

It's far more like a diablo-like.

DS is a good game and WF a good one too but they are veeeery different.

They similar only in appareance.

 

Also WF are a grind/farm game and ask players to gather thousounds or millions of ressources and throwing at them a "everyennemyisachallenge" system is not very coherent.

 

Yeah WF is a power fantasy and from some level is very casual.

It's not truly a problem. I played Diablo long time and WF is far more diverse and appealling.

If i want challenge i can launch my DS or, better , i launch a PvP MMo or a fight game like Tekken with friends.

Others players are always more challenging that some IA.

 

I can have the challenge, i can have the power fantasy.

All games would not be like DS and anothers gameplays that WF are cool.

Diversity is the key word.

[Space0ddity]

34 minutes ago, SgtHotPepper said:

Comparing Warframe to DS2 is pointless.

It's far more like a diablo-like.

DS is a good game and WF a good one too but they are veeeery different.

They similar only in appareance.

 

Also WF are a grind/farm game and ask players to gather thousounds or millions of ressources and throwing at them a "everyennemyisachallenge" system is not very coherent.

 

Yeah WF is a power fantasy and from some level is very casual.

It's not truly a problem. I played Diablo long time and WF is far more diverse and appealling.

If i want challenge i can launch my DS or, better , i launch a PvP MMo or a fight game like Tekken with friends.

Others players are always more challenging that some IA.

 

I can have the challenge, i can have the power fantasy.

All games would not be like DS and anothers gameplays that WF are cool.

Diversity is the key word.

1。i'm comparing it to ds3 and bloodborne，as those two reward aggresive playstyles the most

2。 even if warframe is a goku simulator we should still run into some decently strong enemies sometimes. i kinda feel like vegeta or frieza，like as if there's nobody that strong around when playing wf

[SgtHotPepper]

Now it's clearer for me and i can agree with you.

Some more challenging ennemies would be refreshing.

But WF is also a preparation and a meta game.

How long before the players adapt to this new ennemy and just start stomp him like others mobs ?

[Space0ddity]

5 minutes ago, SgtHotPepper said:

Now it's clearer for me and i can agree with you.

Some more challenging ennemies would be refreshing.

But WF is also a preparation and a meta game.

How long before the players adapt to this new ennemy and just start stomp him like others mobs ?

if only de would just buff older enemies to fall in line with modern ones，hmmmmm

[Lutesque]

On 2019-02-20 at 6:56 AM, Space0ddity said:

1。are  as aggressive as the players，literally never stop rushing in and attacking

Rattlers, Helions and Those Jerks on Cetus in those flying things have this area covered.

On 2019-02-20 at 6:56 AM, Space0ddity said:

2。are as mobile as the players，and can catch them，allowing us to get that visceral 'bully breathing down the back of your neck' feeling

They may not be mobile but those Infestes Ancient Jerks will grab you regardless of how you move so there... just do more Infested missions and you can just be as annoyed as the rest of us in no time 😉

Grinneer Butchers on Cetus will Grab you too.... 

On fortuna there was this one enemy that tethered me while I was in my Archwing and killed me in 2 Seconds.

On 2019-02-20 at 6:56 AM, Space0ddity said:

3。have extremely high damage，but only as a counter to mindless agression（ie。 an enemy that reacts to immobile players with a rush of melee swipes that forces them to dodge）

Have you never been to the Void ?

On 2019-02-20 at 6:56 AM, Space0ddity said:

are actually bigger than us，allowing them to hit us with their attacks （bigger sword bigger hitbox）

Eidolons, Giant Spiders...  Big enough foy you ? 

 

[Space0ddity]

3 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Rattlers, Helions and Those Jerks on Cetus in those flying things have this area covered.

They may not be mobile but those Infestes Ancient Jerks will grab you regardless of how you move so there... just do more Infested missions and you can just be as annoyed as the rest of us in no time 😉

Grinneer Butchers on Cetus will Grab you too.... 

On fortuna there was this one enemy that tethered me while I was in my Archwing and killed me in 2 Seconds.

Have you never been to the Void ?

Eidolons, Giant Spiders...  Big enough foy you ? 

 

i love all of those guys with my heart and theres nothing i enjoy ingame more than eidolons and mot

gimme more de (　・∀・)

[Lutesque]

Just now, Space0ddity said:

i love all of those guys with my heart and theres nothing i enjoy ingame more than eidolons and mot

gimme more de (　・∀・)

LoL... then Wear all The Dragon Keys... and then you can have your challenge without making the rest of us suffer even more.

[Space0ddity]

1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

LoL... then Wear all The Dragon Keys... and then you can have your challenge without making the rest of us suffer even more.

i do vault runs like all the time its pretty fun

normally in pubs i dont bother adding health mods，if i die i just laugh it off and keep shooting since enemies in this game are a meme

[Lutesque]

10 minutes ago, Space0ddity said:

i do vault runs like all the time its pretty fun

normally in pubs i dont bother adding health mods，if i die i just laugh it off and keep shooting since enemies in this game are a meme

Volt Runs aren't difficult even if you wear all the keys.... unless if you're not doing Orokin Derelict Capture... 

[Space0ddity]

3 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Volt Runs aren't difficult even if you wear all the keys.... unless if you're not doing Orokin Derelict Capture... 

i dont add health mods

[FlusteredFerret]

Infested literally never stop rushing you (once you get sufficiently far into a mission).

There are a couple of Corpus units...the knockdown ones and the ones that use jetpacks or something to hover in the air.

The PoE Ghouls are bigger and have some fairly nasty weapons...they also don't stop pursuing you, even if you run away.

Grineer Bombards and Nox are also pretty tough to deal with. As are Juggernauts, Ambulas, Manics etc.

 

The medium sized Orb spiders that defend the Temple, Spaceport etc. Are both bigger than us and highly mobile.

 

Also Warframe play styles can be whatever the player wants them to be, both through personal play style and build. Personally, I'm never "hyper-aggressive" simply because I prefer a slower play style and like to take in my surroundings, looking for good shooting spots, cover etc. rather than just parkouring all over the place as fast as possible. I also like to conserve energy and don't spam abilities...preferring to use them when I (or the team) really needs them.

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by FlusteredFerret

[Gabbynaru]

You know why people don't play conclave? Cause you can't hit anything and it's not fun at all. Now imagine that in the core gameplay, enemies just bullet jumping around like crazy, high speed movement, massive damage... That doesn't sound fun at all. In fact, it sounds absolutely terrible. So how about we don't get that?

[Entity--]

well at least make sure to delete spy missions before adding that

[Loza03]

6 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Rattlers, Helions and Those Jerks on Cetus in those flying things have this area covered.

Pity Hellions barely show up on most tilesets and only the Plains have meaningful air support (not even OV for some reason)

Honestly I'd like more stuff like them. They're not super strong on their own but they do throw a wrench into the works of players just sitting around and nuking everything that shows up. That's the kind of thing that Warframe needs more of, and less of multiplicative scaling and untelegraphed CC, and more controlled damage numbers overall so DE can actually have a prayer of balancing without screwing over some large chunk of the playerbase. Frankly, the code enemies run on is in dire need of an update by any stretch. For example - shotgunners, assault troops and snipers all use the same range, and enemy ability use was evidently designed for individual enemies, not groups, as they'll all trigger regardless of other enemies - leading both to stunlock-to-death combos where a dozen grappling hooks hit you at once and worthless time wasters as enemies CC you with basically nothing around to actually capitalise on that CC.

Imagine if enemies used CC less often and with more telegraphing, but used it smarter like drawing you explicitly into a danger zone. Something that's more consistent and easy to avoid, but also be much more deserving of being avoided.

[angias]

Le 19/02/2019 à 23:56, Space0ddity a dit :

why don't we have enemies that counter this mobility more？

by 'counter' i'm talking about enemies that：

1。are  as aggressive as the players，literally never stop rushing in and attacking

2。are as mobile as the players，and can catch them，allowing us to get that visceral 'bully breathing down the back of your neck' feeling

3。have extremely high damage，but only as a counter to mindless agression（ie。 an enemy that reacts to immobile players with a rush of melee swipes that forces them to dodge）

4。 are actually bigger than us，allowing them to hit us with their attacks （bigger sword bigger hitbox）

we've tried everything from damage to bullet sponge to dodging like a madman 

but why not have enemies that have tactics actually suited to the enemy they fight？surely more effective than hiding behind a corner and spraying a water pistol

My guest is the AI is too weak to handle more complex pathway/interaction at a high speed.

Good example are the manic and cavor wich AI struggle to do the simple things.

Have you observed the enemy becomming way WAY more deadly in open space/world they have also a more aggresive behavior. My though on this is there is less obstacle between us and them so they change less often their actions and they can use action that are way faster without drawback.

Heck the enemy struggle to just walk in clostrophobic space.

[(PSN)watt4hem]

On 2019-02-21 at 1:06 AM, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

Nope my Exergis one shots them easily even without Magnetize

 

On 2019-02-21 at 1:07 AM, MagPrime said:

Not unless that was a recent addition.  

I think the Tyl Manics do though, but not the ones from the old Raid or general mission ones. 

That's probably the case then. It's been a while since i saw a manic outside of tyl's forced spawns.

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, (PS4)watt4hem said:

 

That's probably the case then. It's been a while since i saw a manic outside of tyl's forced spawns.

Someone in my Discord said they spawn 15m on endless missions, after Ceres if you're in a team.  30 if solo.

I've been spamming Helene and hitting W30 a lot and haven't seen them there, so I'm betting there's some truth to what they said.

[Brorelia]

On 2019-02-19 at 9:00 PM, MagPrime said:

Grineer Manic's are pretty close to what you're wanting.

If only their spawn rate was half as high as it was in Nightmare LoR.

[GrimAtrament]

On 2019-02-19 at 9:56 PM, Space0ddity said:

why don't we have enemies that counter this mobility more？

 because every time we do. a bunch of people come onto the forums and complain about having there power fantasy taken away.

look what happened to manics, and bursas.

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by hazerddex

[MagPrime]

5 minutes ago, Brorelia said:

If only their spawn rate was half as high as it was in Nightmare LoR.

I would enjoy more Manics, honestly.  One of the few enemies that actually gets on my nerves sometimes.

[Unus]

       I've run into this in the past (as well as the "forum incineration" reminder) when designing several enemies that fall into those categories, and, the answer I've managed to cook up is "When implementing them, restrict them by level.".

 

Example? I have these units called Grineer Headhunters that are made to kill Tenno. Jumpy, armed with shield-pierceing weapons, resistant to abilities, etc. Being as dangerous as they are though, I put a level limit of "20 and past" on them so that that they only show up in that way.

 

I bet if Digital went about things in a similar manner, where enemies actually got more dangerous in loadout, unit consistency, and "Tenno Counterability" as you progress through the System Map, it would be a happy median of sorts.

 

 

[(PSN)watt4hem]

6 hours ago, MagPrime said:

Someone in my Discord said they spawn 15m on endless missions, after Ceres if you're in a team.  30 if solo.

I've been spamming Helene and hitting W30 a lot and haven't seen them there, so I'm betting there's some truth to what they said.

I've heard about this when i asked about farming regular ash wayyy back. Still don't know if it's true or not but they do sometimes spawn. But for some reason there's also a chance for a spawned manic to despawn if i took too long to find/kill it.

[angias]

Il y a 2 heures, (PS4)watt4hem a dit :

I've heard about this when i asked about farming regular ash wayyy back. Still don't know if it's true or not but they do sometimes spawn. But for some reason there's also a chance for a spawned manic to despawn if i took too long to find/kill it.

When an enemy get to a place it is not supposed to be, it just die.

I should start taking note on this. The DEvs have changed some of the enemy behavior throug optimisation and for the common enemy walking from their spawnpoint to their objective was a true challenge. This issue has been addressed but i believe it could have some interresting effect on faster enemy in clostrophobic spaces.

Would not be surprised if when the manic teleported in the "wrong" place, that would make the AI fail and trigger death.