MELEE 2.9 CONCERNS rebinding and melee mode

[GrimAtrament]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

I’m afraid it will: Blocking while Aiming

i am waiting for that bug as well.  but DE did mention they were getting rid of the block.

Edited February 22, 2019 by hazerddex

[Lakais]

5 hours ago, CrazyValkyr said:

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I hear and understand the concerns people have while I find it funny that some other, very vocal people seem to approach this as if they have had full experience with the system. 

My main argument against the narrative of this change removing player choice in a definite manner is that we don't know the exact way how keys will switch. Maybe they will keep the two separate key-binds for melee to allow for melee focused gameplay. With the default being E for both switching to melee (quick melee) and main melee. But there also being a dedicated melee key that is either unbound or set to E that we could switch to LMB. Entirely hypothetical, but a clear possibility. The most prominent problem then being the need to unlearn RMB as a block function. Which also brings us to a completely forgotten part of this entire melee change: Channeling and how it was supposed to be combined with blocking. Now with blocking gone... what about channeling? Maybe RMB can be switched to that and E be turned around to being switch back to gun (assuming you brought one to the fight to begin with). 

The point being that we don't know what and how we can play around with the keybinds and regardless of what you do, chances are we are going to need to adapt and relearn. I am personally optimistic about this change breathing some new air into people's playstyles and experience by forcing people to experiment. Naturally, there will be those are against these changes simply for not liking change, warframe conservatives, I guess you could call them. 

In the end, as this is v2.9999997 of melee, I think is likely that even IF we don't have all these options at the word go, they can be added in with sufficient player demand and feedback. 

And I too tweeted at Steve, my concern being the Pistol-Glaive combo that I love using. His later tweet about pistol combo's has given me some hope that this even more niche style then Sword Alone staying in play. 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Lakais

[Yamazuki]

5 hours ago, Lakais said:

I hear and understand the concerns people have while I find it funny that some other, very vocal people seem to approach this as if they have had full experience with the system. 

My main argument against the narrative of this change removing player choice in a definite manner is that we don't know the exact way how keys will switch. Maybe they will keep the two separate key-binds for melee to allow for melee focused gameplay. With the default being E for both switching to melee (quick melee) and main melee. But there also being a dedicated melee key that is either unbound or set to E that we could switch to LMB. Entirely hypothetical, but a clear possibility. The most prominent problem then being the need to unlearn RMB as a block function. Which also brings us to a completely forgotten part of this entire melee change: Channeling and how it was supposed to be combined with blocking. Now with blocking gone... what about channeling? Maybe RMB can be switched to that and E be turned around to being switch back to gun (assuming you brought one to the fight to begin with). 

The point being that we don't know what and how we can play around with the keybinds and regardless of what you do, chances are we are going to need to adapt and relearn. I am personally optimistic about this change breathing some new air into people's playstyles and experience by forcing people to experiment. Naturally, there will be those are against these changes simply for not liking change, warframe conservatives, I guess you could call them. 

In the end, as this is v2.9999997 of melee, I think is likely that even IF we don't have all these options at the word go, they can be added in with sufficient player demand and feedback. 

And I too tweeted at Steve, my concern being the Pistol-Glaive combo that I love using. His later tweet about pistol combo's has given me some hope that this even more niche style then Sword Alone staying in play. 

The issue here is there is no "switching" to melee with what they are talking about. "Melee mode" is effectively removed with the focus on guns and "quick melee". Binding LMB to melee means you have to bind shooting to something else. Between the video and all the statements there's no animation between switching between your gun and melee, you effectively always have your gun out, the only change here is quick melee is now instant and gets to combo like the current "melee mode" does.

What I find annoying is that these changes to quick melee/hybrid play could be implemented without ruining/removing "melee mode". If anyone needs to be open minded, it would be the dev.

[Lakais]

19 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

The issue here is there is no "switching" to melee with what they are talking about. "Melee mode" is effectively removed with the focus on guns and "quick melee". Binding LMB to melee means you have to bind shooting to something else. Between the video and all the statements there's no animation between switching between your gun and melee, you effectively always have your gun out, the only change here is quick melee is now instant and gets to combo like the current "melee mode" does.

What I find annoying is that these changes to quick melee/hybrid play could be implemented without ruining/removing "melee mode". If anyone needs to be open minded, it would be the dev.

Personally, I think you got it backwards. Quick Melee is what is being functionally removed. Rather then hitting E being the Quick Melee, it is an instant switch to Melee Mode. With LMB and RMB, keys that are by default for channeling and blocking being essentially doubling as weapon switch keys to what are also their functions on the firearms. And the one thing to remember here is that these are simply the default settings. Admittedly, it's a more "Aaaachshually" pedantic technicality thing. 

Now, having read the Phase 1 dev workshop on melee changes, some things have come up. There it is said that Channeling is set to a toggle triggered by the alternate fire key. Something to get used to and hopefully something that can also be turned to an "On-Hold" rather then just a toggle. And also it was mentioned that they have put in a toggle to allow for LMB to act as melee attack rather then switching and shooting your gun. The stream showed these as toggle options, but I am hoping these will be bindable keys as I have seen and thought of some very interesting keybind setups I wouldn't mind trying. 

I am hopeful for the option to for example set the keys up to allow for what is effectively Sword Alone, by allowing us to switch to melee with the default E setup but then use LMB for melee attack and RMB for channeling and maybe E again or alternate fire key to switch to guns.

Now my personal problems with the new system as was shown is that the switching between melee and firearm is too fast. The warping of weapons makes the switch feel cheap and honestly placeholderish. I would much prefer if the switch was a bit slower with maybe more animation put in where the Tenno stows current weapon with one hand switch to the other one with the other. Or maybe even just sort of "toss" the weapon into the void-aether and have it teleport to the frame's holsters or something why they switch to a new one. But that's a minor thing and something I think I can get used to. The other, bigger issue I potentially see with the lack of blocking is aim-glide and camera position. This is something that i think could be done more globally where aimglide is far more zoomed out then now with even scoped weapons (snipers) not using said scopes. This is a situational awareness deal that I can see many people preferring the use of melee weapons for, being able to see more of your surroundings while gliding. 

 

[SenariousNex]

I feel as though they are trying to re-invent Gunz K-style, which was one of the most fluid sword + gun combat systems ever made.  

example: 

 

[DoomFruit]

49 minutes ago, SenariousNex said:

I feel as though they are trying to re-invent Gunz K-style, which was one of the most fluid sword + gun combat systems ever made.  

example: (snip large video)

That doesn't actually look very fluid at all. Maybe it's just the animations (stiffly gliding up and down when they jump, not much transition between movements), but it looks very stilted and highly un-natural (there's no inertia in the characters' movement, they shift directions instantly). About the only fluidity I noticed there is how the player appeared to do vertical wallhops without any special camera movement. If I were to replicate your setup using a detron and a dakra prime, I'd be moving far more smoothly in this game than in your video.

Edited February 23, 2019 by DoomFruit

[IntheCoconut]

3 hours ago, SenariousNex said:

I feel as though they are trying to re-invent Gunz K-style, which was one of the most fluid sword + gun combat systems ever made.  

example: 

 

Aww Gunz...I used to play the game as a kid and loved it. I have to say though, I don't think kstyle and butterfly were ever intentionally designed to be part of the initial game. It was just sort of a fluke that happened and it added depth to the game, so the developers decided to never "fix" it. It was one of the best happy accidents and certainly was why I enjoyed it so much. It helped define Gunz and make it stand out from other arena shooters.

I'm honestly not sure if DE would ever go that far though. Being able to change directions mid-flight is super fun, but not exactly realistic. The fact that Archwings have a deceleration time that prevents you from instantly stopping or instantly changing directions is kind of an indication that they want to stick to more realistic physics in their game. There also isn't any way to really reset your projection during a bullet jump once your feet leave the ground. You can sort of steer yourself a little, but nothing like in Gunz where you could swap or block to reset your dash to completely alter your direction. But with the upcoming melee changes, the new Ground Slam does seem to provide a lot more control in where you land, so what do I know? Maybe it will go the way of Gunz.

[SenariousNex]

3 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

That doesn't actually look very fluid at all. Maybe it's just the animations (stiffly gliding up and down when they jump, not much transition between movements), but it looks very stilted and highly un-natural (there's no inertia in the characters' movement, they shift directions instantly). About the only fluidity I noticed there is how the player appeared to do vertical wallhops without any special camera movement. If I were to replicate your setup using a detron and a dakra prime, I'd be moving far more smoothly in this game than in your video.

It doesn't look smooth because many animations are canceled, because game's animations weren't designed around k-style, they were glitches invented by players, so it looks a bit jarring. But it feels very fluid to do.

 

48 minutes ago, IntheCoconut said:

 

I'm honestly not sure if DE would ever go that far though. Being able to change directions mid-flight is super fun, but not exactly realistic. The fact that Archwings have a deceleration time that prevents you from instantly stopping or instantly changing directions is kind of an indication that they want to stick to more realistic physics in their game. There also isn't any way to really reset your projection during a bullet jump once your feet leave the ground. You can sort of steer yourself a little, but nothing like in Gunz where you could swap or block to reset your dash to completely alter your direction. But with the upcoming melee changes, the new Ground Slam does seem to provide a lot more control in where you land, so what do I know? Maybe it will go the way of Gunz.

The instant turn on a dime mid air direction change came from a dash ability, I think gunz dashes would be a perfect addition to warframe as they are very similar to limbos dash or Javelin dashes in Anthem. Archwing acceleration and deceleration needs to be ripped out of the game and re-done to mimic  flight controls of jet planes (or Javelins in Anthem, they have very nice flight feel to it). I really hope it goes the way of Gunz, because the game had very simple moveset (dash, slash, block, jump, switch weapons, reload fire) and due to fluidness and ability to animation cancel, you can write books on how many skills people could learn.

[Soulden]

I'm more interested on trying to understand how "Melee only" players will be affected. Beside that aim glide block possible bug posted above.

If DE follows with keybinds, just keybind and done. 

Unless keybinds are being removed entirely, then ewww....

[tonyb010ny]

I am another one of those people who

- MOSTLY play with a melee weapon and

- have the melee attack keybound to the left mouse button

The problem for me with the new system is I either have to melee via the keyboard (sorry, that doesn't work for me)

or I continue to melee with the mouse, and now my primary FIRE key for primary and 2ndary weapons has to be bound to the keyboard. 

 

So, yeah, I guess until something changes, I am going to bind my weapon fire to they keyboard, and keep meleeing with the mouse...

NOT THE BEST SOLUTION IMHO 😞

 

tonyb010ny