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I was cautiously optimistic about the melee rework, but again, more questions raised than anything.
Channelling was notorious for being an utterly pointless system outside of life steal, and while blocking was underwhelming as well, a lot of systems had been built around it.
But you're keeping channelling and getting rid of blocking.
Why?
Now you have to work around and redesign combos, abilities, weapons that have been built around different block mechanics.
And though initially my reaction to the changes to the way bindings work was negative - I've slightly cooled down after just trying to visualize my left mouse as fire, right mouse as melee, thumb mouse as aim, and caps lock as secondary fire/channelling.
Still, leaves me questioning how this'll all work out, especially if combos will be more time based with the loss of blocking (unless you're going to redo stances with even more work, using WASD, crouch + space to give you the same range as before -- Hate the "hold" and "pause" combos in this hectic game with millions of particle effects obscuring my moves at any given time).

Again, I won't cry the end of the world just yet, but this "phase 1" leaves a lot of questions, and having those linger with "maybe they'll be solved in phase 2" does not make me hopeful.

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I dont know if DE already think of this or if it possible to be implemented in the first place, but here's the concept.
I believe it would be cool, if one combo can traverse to another.
For example- lets say we have two combos(A,B) with 4 moves on each.
Then you start combo A, make 2 hits, then switch to B and make 2 last attacks from that combo.
Or what about 4 combos 4 hits each, and making 1 attack from every one of them and make ULTIMATE COMBO WOMBO?😃
This will bring a lot of diversity in melee.

Edited by RegisteredLoser_3
misprints
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So are we still getting dual wield of Single Melee and gun? Is it still the plan to release that with melee 3.0?

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13 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Your 'F' button now exclusively swaps between Primary and Secondary weapons with a tap.

Uh ..... I guess I must use primary weapon now to toggle【 Vigorous Swap 】(using Secondary + Melee only and double tapping F to trigger Vigorous atm) _(:3」

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So wait... If blocking is dependent entirely upon us targeting the enemy, how do we account for times when multiple different enemies are shooting at us from multiple angles?

Do we settle for blocking only the bullets of one enemy at a time, while the rest chew into us from any angle, because there's no proactive way to toggle blocking?

If so, that seems like a downgrade...

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mostly sounds good, though the VFX things..... guys.. please.... warframe isnt a bullet hell, we dont need screen terrorising particals. that gif with the paracesis looks absolutely awful, and thats without berserker.... thats going to be borderline unusable...

in the same vain, please, independent partical sliders for enemy low priority, ie, their guns and such, high priority, ie, nullifier bubbles the player NEEDS to know about, and friendly things, ie, buffs to the player, or the players own particals from guns or melee. this would go a LONG way to fix the issues people have with the particals. 

for example, right now, a mesa player cant see her retical for peacemaker,  and cant see corpus nullifiers, if they lower the slider to be able to see through the billions of effects in the vallis. the nullifier is important, the retical is important in a different way, but if we want to see, we cant see the important things suddenly. 

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Blocking changes looks like a terrible idea. Having to target enemy to block only good on paper.
1) You cant target multiple enemies at same time
2) You cant just enter a defensive state to mitigate damage constantly.
3) Add a whole new proplem of target place dependancy affected by lags(yes with lags enemies can jump places very fast if you did not know)

4) Automatic blocking animation will interrupt player actions even if they don't want to block.

Either leave blocking as is or at least give me option to manually block instead of automatic when I choose to melee with left mouse button option.

Edited by Unibot
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how about the parry ? with the new melee system , can we still open enemy to finisher with it or we just lose it ?

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17 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

BLOCKING

Blocking with a melee weapon is no longer keybound, it is automatic when facing enemies who are dealing damage to you in melee mode. Your Reticle determines all!

 

The idea is clean and simple, but demonstrated execution wasn't nice. While it's perfectly understandable why exactly you have to focus on one specific enemy with daggers in hands to block (daggers are quite small as they are) this tiny reticle doesn't make any sense with sword and shield or heavy blades. So, in order to make it more useful I'd recommend to make reticle for sword & shield A LOT bigger. To the point where it would cover half of the screen (and make it almost transparent), so you just have to look in the general direction of the enemy followed by heavy blades and so on with daggers and double daggers same as it is right now. Also, increase % blocking on all weapons to match sword & shield or even higher since now it's harder to actually get this bonus. It must worth it.

Also, there must be mods which increase area covered by the reticle even further to the point when with sword & shield mere presence of the enemy on the screen will automatically trigger blocking.

Edited by lainverse
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16 minutes ago, lainverse said:
 

The idea is clean and simple, but demonstrated execution wasn't nice. While it's perfectly understandable why exactly you have to focus on one specific enemy with daggers in hands to block (daggers are quite small as they are) this tiny reticle doesn't make any sense with sword and shield or heavy blades. So, in order to make it more useful I'd recommend to make reticle for sword & shield A LOT bigger. To the point where it would cover half of the screen (and make it almost transparent), so you just have to look in the general direction of the enemy followed by heavy blades and so on with daggers and double daggers same as it is right now. Also, increase % blocking on all weapons to match sword & shield or even higher since now it's harder to actually get this bonus. It must worth it.

Also, there must be mods which increase area covered by the reticle even further to the point when with sword & shield mere presence of the enemy on the screen will automatically trigger blocking.

Sounds like a pretty reasonable suggestion to me.

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17 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

KEYBINDINGS
BLOCKING

Blocking with a melee weapon is no longer keybound, it is automatic when facing enemies who are dealing damage to you in melee mode. Your Reticle determines all!

CHANNELING
Channeling is now a toggle set to your alt-fire button when in melee mode.

OPTIONS:

Blocking: I would like to keep blocking as a manual feature because too many stances have at least 3 unique stance routes (spam [melee] / [melee], Charged, [melee]... / block + [melee]), can this be an option? 
-Besides, our Warframes already block things automatically sometimes; the auto-blocking mod should be repurposed as a damage negation system which uses combo counter as a shield/health bar.

Channeling: This is fine.

Aiming: With Channeling being relocated, I would rather use the aim keybind (Xbox controller defaults: left trigger) to pull out my primary/secondary weapon.

Dual-wielding: Any considerations for bigger dual-wielding ideas, like:
-Toggle option bound to reload key while in melee, which would remove the automatic dual-wield system, which doesn't offer the choice to use just the sidearm.

-Dual/akimbo/twin sidearms would have halved clip and doubled reload speed when equipped. Throwing knives included.

-Double-tapping the reload key would swap to a primary weapon. Any 1 or 2-handed melee weapon would be accepted for dual-wielding, meaning those Prime artworks showing Frost dual-wielding Latron and Reaper Prime, Nekros with Tigris and Galatine Prime in either hand, Chroma using his sniper as a revolver with Gram Prime in the other hand, in addition to Vauban Prime using his Stiletto Prime with Fragor Prime, would become possible in-mission rather than being mere advertisement visuals. Besides, wasn't that art of Excalibur sliding with Skana and Sicarus the root of this besides Dark Sector's dual-wielding system?

 

 

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Question, how will the "tight melee combat roll" shown before work now that block is automatic?


With phase 1 right at the doorstep I'd like to share my suggestion on expanding charge attacks for upcoming phases.

For a start, if charge attacks are still going to be around then let us charge attack from gun mode so instead of quick melee i can start off with holding e to charge attack on first melee attack out of gun mode. Just a small QoL.

 

Now the meat.

TL;DR: Please give us rising attacks. You know, uppercuts, shouryuken, etc. Idea is to CC and get targets airborne. And maybe expand on charge/heavy attacks, ideally to give room for more possible single or short movesets that can be chained together into a combo.

Since you'll be movement locked on normal melee, lock our movement on charge attack too. While that by itself is just a nerf, this'll open up the option of applying normal melee's "pressing direction to execute different move" to charge attacks too.

For normal attacks you are kinda holding direction button while pressing [E] to execute
so for charge attacks you can hold [E] and while charging, press a direction button to execute different kind of charge attacks.

The idea with directional charge attacks is that it creates room for a secondary moveset.
This way we'd have;
- Primary quick/normal moveset that starts with Hold direction input and lets you build up combo counter,
and
- Secondary charge/heavy moveset that starts with Hold [E] input and consumes combo counter for additional benefits.

Rising attack could be one of the charge attacks. as an example;
Uppercut!
- hold [E] to charge, then press space while charging to execute.
- ragdolls enemies upwards, makes warframe airborne.
- consumes combo.
- affected aoe range depends on combo counter.

(combo counter cost is vague since im not sure if DE wants it so all counter is used on next charge attack or that charge attacks has determined CCcost.)


Regarding charge attack with no directional input, my initial thought was that there's 2 things you can do, automatically releasing base charge attack once its charged, or releasing e to release charge attack. Auto release is what we currently have now in melee 2.0, and "releasing e" idea would give more control. But you could utilize both to create a timing prompt mechanic.

For example releasing [E] at the brief window possibly prompted with visual/audio cue when fully charged for extra benefit. Missing the prompt by either early or late input shouldn't have any penalties, instead it just does the attack without whatever extra boost it could've had.

Think Octavia's metronome but the pulse is when your charge is full and the input is directional button or [E] release.


I could only hazard a guess as to how resource intensive it would be to implement these but since we're still in the middle of melee rework and phase 1 and 2 doesn't include charge attack changes I figured now is a good time.

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Can Valkyr ultimate energy drain increase be freezed when we out of melee form? Because its really unreasonable and unfair when your energy drain will keep increasing while you not benefit from your ultimate. Also making this precentage slowly decrease with time(instead of freezing) when out of melee will make it really interesting alternative to constantly recasting your ultimate to get energy drain back to normal.

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I kind of just want it done already lol. I spin to win a lot due to it's efficiency but if you can make melee better to where i do not need to, it would be nice to have move set variety with power. I fear re-rolling all of my slide CC rivens so please make that stat transform into something viable in the new system.

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13 hours ago, cypherusuh said:

autoblock only active if you're on melee mode, so just take out your guns 

I think they dont change how this works, since holding right click makes you aim instead of blocking

I'm still worried on what will happens with polearm, since all of its stance is stupidly bad and slow compared to other weapon. it would be sucks if polearm is forced to be meme strike weapon w/ nerfed range

But it says right click makes you aim instantly don’t they mean with the weapons? which means melee aimglide is getting removed since you weren’t aiming when aimgliding with melee we were blocking.

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How about if they adjust it to, press melee while gun aimgliding to switch to melee aimgliding, then press melee again for the aimed air to ground dive attack?

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Guys will you change something about excals interaction with nullies? Its really anoying to have your pinky toe clipped when jumping, by one of those things trough the wall and have excal gently fall on the ground, and politely turn of his FREAKING LIGHTSABER in the middle of arbitration mission.

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7 hours ago, Unibot said:

Blocking changes looks like a terrible idea. Having to target enemy to block only good on paper.
1) You cant target multiple enemies at same time
2) You cant just enter a defensive state to mitigate damage constantly.
3) Add a whole new proplem of target place dependancy affected by lags(yes with lags enemies can jump places very fast if you did not know)

4) Automatic blocking animation will interrupt player actions even if they don't want to block.

Either leave blocking as is or at least give me option to manually block instead of automatic when I choose to melee with left mouse button option.

 

I think you may be confused, or I'm not understanding your concerns. Blocking as it is now is a radial cone that is activated upon hitting a specific button which mitigates damage in that cone; the only thing changing is that instead of activating block by hitting a button your Warframe will instead block automatically when not performing another action. All other aspects of blocking should be entirely the same. 

1) You will still be able to block multiple enemies at once provided they are generally in front of you, it will simply happen automatically instead of at the behest of a button. 
2) You can enter a defensive state to mitigate damage constantly simply by not attacking. This is true of the current system as well, it will just happen automatically instead of at the behest of a button. 
3) I don't 100% understand your argument here, but I think you're talking about a low ping host in which case my experience has been that "jumpy" enemies dont' tend to even be aware of my existence at all. I'm not sure that block changes will have any impact on this at all. 
4) The 'staggered block' animation that plays for repelling an Eximus Firewall or a few other actions also negates a much longer animation of being knocked on your butt and then having to slowly recover. I would much rather 'suffer' that animation than suffer a knockdown. 

Edited by Acos

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Didn't read through the whole thread to see if someone already suggested similar. The Vaykor Sydon effect releasing on aim should be changed to released with aim+melee attack with this new system, that way you retain your mobility like aim gliding with your melee blocking to close distance and as long as you're aiming during melee it can go off if it's charged pre/mid combo.

 

*Edit - Since aiming doesn't just aim, but weapon switches to gun simultaneously  which I noticed watching the devstream that won't work rather than having "aiming" disconnected from the weapon swapping such that it would only switch to full aim and fire when using fire.

 

I'm still probably not going to use it, because if things are low level you'd just kill them instead of charging all day, but if things are big where you'd want finisher opportunities then blocking is generally considered worse than evasion tactics and would get you killed which also any mission with higher level enemies enemies that you'd feel the need to blind generally has enough of them at a rate that blocking can be somewhat suicidal really, barring some of the tankiest frames or frames with intermittent form of CC like mirage's clones or nekros 4's as a distraction cutting down on incoming fire. Someone suggested the fix to this would be to charge blocks non-consecutively up to it's cap which could fit right into the auto blocking system in that you basically build blind charges while as a passive over time for switching to melee while normally playing and then releasing when it when you decide you want to, making it far more fluid in that taking a few shots here and there while rolling or running will eventually let you take out some finishers mid play or using it for vital CC. I'd definitely give it another go with those mechanics and play around with it. In a way it'd sort of almost make Sydon melee being closer to a more controlled version of Gara's glint passive that requires taking some form of damage.

 

 

Edited by Pirate-X

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Really worried about the changes, especially for the auto blocking, I recently made a Ack and Brunt build with Electromagnetic Shielding, also for the fact it's no longer melee only focus.
And what's the appeal of ground slams? If they are just going to keep being a annoying way of CC and not a good way to deal DMG, why should I care if they have low mobility or make me stop in the air for a few seconds?
I only use them when I want to get to the ground fast or just not use it at all.
I get DE and a lot of ppl want changes, but these are just not interesting to me at all. Maybe I'll enjoy the quick switching, but that's it.

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I have a better idea for melee visual effects.

 

Yes, it looks very cool and sounds logical that visual effects are tied to weapons highest elemental damage, BUT after these changes we will see only three FX types in game: corrosive, viral and gas. Thats boring. Why not allow us to select / buy / color any effect that we would like to use. Personaly, i like electric effects, but i will never build my weapon this way.

Edited by SlicerGT

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The only change I’m super-reluctant about is killing blocking, and it’s mostly because I don’t see what it accomplishes.

yes, it frees up the aim button to be used to draw your gun, in addition to the shoot button... but is that really necessary? What is the actual gain to the end-user there? In DE’s internal playtesting, was it a common enough occurrence to want to aim your gun WITHOUT also wanting to fire it, that blocking had to die? If so, were any middle-grounds attempted first?

E.g. pressing shoot while blocking draws the gun into an aim, and pressing shoot again fires it?

I can also see how aim-to-draw might have been dreamt up as a solution LMB-melee; now RMB can re-equip the gun, so LMB can have shared functionality. When faced with that problem, why not just let users bind a command for “melee/gun switch”? Tap E to quick-melee-into-melee-mode, tap it again to quick-shoot-into-gun-mode.

The real problem with auto-blocking is now, blocking can’t be GOOD. We can’t have the old “blocking-is-channeling” plans with innate 100% damage reduction/reflection, or innate parries on well-timed blocks. We probably can’t have blocking increment combo counter either. These were cool ideas that were developed to make blocking more useful and viable; now that it’s an innate, automatic function, they become “imbalanced” and not worth pursuing, especially since it makes several Warframe Abilities that offer passive damage reduction redundant if it does. By taking out the skill/intention layer of pressing block and making it a passive, it basically mandates that it not be as useful or fun.

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