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[Warframe Rework Suggestion] Ember: The PHOENIX Rework {Reaction to Devstream #131 Ember Showcase}


FoxFX
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DO I BELIEVE HEAT DAMAGE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED FOR EMBER

In my opinion, no. I believe that Ember, being the Heat specialist she is, should have a mechanic which enhances some of the aspects of Heat damage as a whole. It would be a major selling point overall as a Warframe player's choice to try her out. Heat as a damage type has a crowd control and a damage over time aspect to it, and its drawbacks are what keeps it balanced enough for now.

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Although WoF is embers signature ability that many players are drawn to her for, I do think that the ability itself is bad for the game since all it is, is an afk button, half the time when using it you don't even realize you're killing enemies, and that isn't satisfying.

The nerfs they did to her back awhile ago in my opinion made her even MORE of an afk frame, since even though damage gets increased by 2x when it ramps up, the fact that the range  and efficiency decreased means that when modding her you usually mod for more range, duration, and efficiency, which therefore MUST lower your power strength. Why is this a problem? Because accelerant multiplies the damage of WoF WAY more than 2x, but it gets less useful with less power strength. Even though the damage of WoF itself now has 2x the potential, combined with accelerant the damage has actually dramatically fallen about 6x.

Therefore WoF isn't exactly a healthy ability, its afk, not that useful past mid-end starchart, and should be replaced. I do think another ability that should get some change is fireball, when you think fireball you assume the ability will actually do some decent damage with a large splash that casts really fast, although charging up fireball sort of does the first 2 jobs, it feels super clunky in the "fast" department, even with the cast speed buff of accelerant, overall I think fireball needs a bit of an overhaul as well, because even if fireball removed 100% of armor on quick cast, it's still basically single target, and ash already completely owns that realm of armor stripping with his auto homing shuriken that bypass the environment.

Edited by birdobash
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20 hours ago, birdobash said:

Although WoF is embers signature ability that many players are drawn to her for, I do think that the ability itself is bad for the game since all it is, is an afk button, half the time when using it you don't even realize you're killing enemies, and that isn't satisfying.

The nerfs they did to her back awhile ago in my opinion made her even MORE of an afk frame, since even though damage gets increased by 2x when it ramps up, the fact that the range  and efficiency decreased means that when modding her you usually mod for more range, duration, and efficiency, which therefore MUST lower your power strength. Why is this a problem? Because accelerant multiplies the damage of WoF WAY more than 2x, but it gets less useful with less power strength. Even though the damage of WoF itself now has 2x the potential, combined with accelerant the damage has actually dramatically fallen about 6x.

Therefore WoF isn't exactly a healthy ability, its afk, not that useful past mid-end starchart, and should be replaced. I do think another ability that should get some change is fireball, when you think fireball you assume the ability will actually do some decent damage with a large splash that casts really fast, although charging up fireball sort of does the first 2 jobs, it feels super clunky in the "fast" department, even with the cast speed buff of accelerant, overall I think fireball needs a bit of an overhaul as well, because even if fireball removed 100% of armor on quick cast, it's still basically single target, and ash already completely owns that realm of armor stripping with his auto homing shuriken that bypass the environment.

 I share the same suspicions about Ember's World on Fire, thus the reason for this ability Pyromania and setting Ember up to be more themed as a "phoenix."

There is also a statement [DE] made in a patch note which I will address which supports the issue around World on Fire for Ember.

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UPDATE 24.5.0 PATCH NOTES - [DE]'s STATEMENT

Quote

Balance is a conversation that we constantly have, and we see you having as well. For some people the answer is don't nerf things, buff everything else. This is the path of least resistance for us, as most of the player base is happy when we buff, and angry when we nerf. However this has a few side effects that impact the game as a whole. First, with more damage, the time to kill on enemies is lowered and the value of Crowd Control declines even more (Vauban?!). Higher max damage also means that players with the latest bells and whistles can easily kill bosses in an instant, and overcome any challenge with ease. The more your play, the easier the game gets!

So far we have been kicking the can down the road, accepting power creep and its consequences on the game - and often this game is a 'kill all the things' based game. We've mostly done nerfs on things that could be automated, required no player interaction or removed options from the game by making all other choices bad. We will continue to wrestle with this, but the most important part is when and if we decide major balance changes are needed, we will let you know and it will be the result of a lot of consideration. Design changes like this need to be more tempered and considered.

 

I wanted to underline the most important part of the recent patch note and how this is extremely relevant to Ember's World on Fire and how I have to emphasize how World on Fire overshadows Fireball and Fire Blast in terms of power and usability. I'll also again explain why I decided the removal of World on Fire in this rework suggestion in replacing a solo-buff ultimate which improves Ember's sustainability and grants Ember extra firepower into all of her attacks.

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9 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

While i am not so sure the ability changes are needed, the passive would help her a lot.

 

The passive is something I conceptualized to make any Ember player feel that any fire on any enemy grows in intensity the closer Ember is.

As for the ability changes, there is a major reason I have stated in the OP as to why I suggested these changes. I'll explain a bit more from what [DE] has stated in their recent patch notes of the Exploiter Orb.

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I personally think reworks, including ember, need to have more synergy with their abilities. The interactions makes the game play fun. For example embers first ability could make ignited enemies explode for extra aoe damage. For a stronger 4th ability, she needs to get rid of that toggle. 

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5 hours ago, Warfoxzero said:

I personally think reworks, including ember, need to have more synergy with their abilities. The interactions makes the game play fun. For example embers first ability could make ignited enemies explode for extra aoe damage. For a stronger 4th ability, she needs to get rid of that toggle.  

I've stated a reason why I have suggested replacing World on Fire for something else. I do believe the rework suggestion made her creates more synergy with all 4 of her abilities thn what Ember currently has now.

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THE RECENT PATCH NOTE [DE] STATEMENT

Quote

Balance is a conversation that we constantly have, and we see you having as well. For some people the answer is don't nerf things, buff everything else. This is the path of least resistance for us, as most of the player base is happy when we buff, and angry when we nerf. However this has a few side effects that impact the game as a whole. First, with more damage, the time to kill on enemies is lowered and the value of Crowd Control declines even more (Vauban?!). Higher max damage also means that players with the latest bells and whistles can easily kill bosses in an instant, and overcome any challenge with ease. The more your play, the easier the game gets!

So far we have been kicking the can down the road, accepting power creep and its consequences on the game - and often this game is a 'kill all the things' based game. We've mostly done nerfs on things that could be automated, required no player interaction or removed options from the game by making all other choices bad. We will continue to wrestle with this, but the most important part is when and if we decide major balance changes are needed, we will let you know and it will be the result of a lot of consideration. Design changes like this need to be more tempered and considered.

 

For a while, many of the changes done to these "press-and-forget" abilities were dumbed down to make some of these Warframe playstyles to be more engaging. When it comes to Ember and to the bold statement in the quotes, Ember's World on Fire is the ability I feel fits this description. Some would argue that it does require interaction because of the range reduction mechanic to it, but that does not mean it is not an automated attack.

World on Fire has many things that completely overshadows Fireball and Fire Blast making Ember more of a 2 ability Warframe in the long run (the other ability being Accelerant). World on Fire has at base the same damage potential of an uncharged Fireball and can be greater as you maintain World on Fire in game. It is an AOE attack which consistently attacks surrounding enemies at range and on top-bottom levels of areas. The fact that the AOE actually follows Ember puts this ability miles ahead of Fire Blast. There is currently not much impressive things to say about Fireball at this point in the game, and some will argue that attacking through a "ring of fire" to gain 50% Heat seems awesome while there is an "electric shield" that protects from enemy attacks granting 50% Electric Damage and Critical Hit Rate and protects from enemy attacks from the front.

We have held onto World on Fire with Ember simply because it allowed us to speed run lower level content with ease, but so can other Warframes (check Hildryn's 3rd ability as a MAJOR example of this claim). But now World on Fire has been feeling more of a crutch for Ember as this game goes on. I can understand the community outraged over the idea of suggesting this, but if we wish to have Ember more viable in not only star chart but also in other open-area contents and more in the future, we should consider the option of replacing this ability. Ember right now has 3 attack-type abilities and one stun ability, and with one attack ability overshadowing the other two, and in a game where restoring Energy has become much more easier to do, we should find an ability that would support Ember in more difficult content and not be so reliant on Accelerant all the time. This is why I suggested this Furnace passive and the Pyromania ability.

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On 2019-02-23 at 5:50 PM, FoxFX said:

The aim for this is solely to recollect rarely used Warframes. As of now, Vauban is currently in [DE]'s radar. Ember is a Warframe whose playstyle I feel needs to be mentioned next.

I wouldn't count on it. Wukong is probably next.

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1 hour ago, VentiGlondi said:

I wouldn't count on it. Wukong is probably next.

This I have heard a lot to, and that I do acknowledge Wukong's issues (which is also why I refrain from writing about him). Yet, Ember has been in Warframe as among the very first few Warframes. Time till come when people will start talking about Ember.

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Accelerant is an ability of Embers that I feel is PACKED with different roles in her kit. You have it stun enemies (Crowd Control), enemies will receive increased damage from Heat (Debuff), and can grants allies and Ember herself with additional Heat damage and Casting Speed (Support/Buff). I feel the presence of Accelerant makes more Ember players feel very reliant on it due to how much it has in it. I feel it would be best to spread the usefulness of Accelerant to the rest of Ember's kit.

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The document for my analysis on Vauban Rework will touch in a lot of things I feel are being overlooked.

I may write down in this thread my last excerpt on Ember's World on Fire and how it hinders her performance in higher levels.

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Response on:

I can't really deny I get this feeling sometimes when it comes to this quoted comment:

Quote

I have the answer to anyone who wants to play with fire and be more effective then ember. Just bring the Ignis/ Ignis wraith and you have more damage potential in ONE weapon then ember can put out reasonably. that's right ember is replaced by one weapon in her current state and while it is sad it is funny at the same time XD.

I feel that while weapons are serving a better purpose than what Ember was intended, I think that redesigning her kit to not just "support Heat-modded weapons" would be the direction Ember has now.

This is partly why I designed the Pyromania which "support weapons by ADDING bonus Heat damage." This alone makes the interaction between Pyromania + Accelerant and combining the proposed Fireblast and Fireball to make Ember feel a lot more engaging.

Ember already has enough crowd control as Heat is technically a crowd control element. If Ember is to be the glass-cannon Warframe they intended to make her to be, they have to remove the automated ability World on Fire to lower the attack abilities Ember has to 2 (one for single target, the other for AOE). This is further supported with the Furnace passive ability.

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I still believe that World on Fire is still a clutch on Ember as it still overshadows Ember's Fireball and Fire Blast. Ember has way too many attack abilities, and I feel to make all her abilities usable in certain situations, World on Fire has to be replaced with some self-supporting ability.

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May converse a bit on the new Wisp Warframe and the controversy surrounding her 4th in relation to Ember's soon.

In the meantime, I am still deep in thought on a topic for Ember and on Vauban's rework article I am working on.

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Like i said 1 hours ago, in another post :

 

In my opinon ember could be really good, if WoF do more damage more the enemy are close to ember, and do less damage more far of ember, without destroying her range for free.

If the enemy are at 99% of her max range so he will take 1% of damage. Quite simple in fact, and that not will clean all little trash along as you not run close enough to them

(depend of your power base of course)

Like that a mélée build could be interesting...

The first spel is useless, or at least make it charge ultra more fast, or put a 100% fire status effect or something...

 

 

Or another alternative could be :

-Remove the limite of 5 enemy hit.

-Divide the damage by the number of enemy in range.

 

But i prefer the first one.

Edited by HankHuley
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23 hours ago, HankHuley said:

Like i said 1 hours ago, in another post :

 

In my opinon ember could be really good, if WoF do more damage more the enemy are close to ember, and do less damage more far of ember, without destroying her range for free.

If the enemy are at 99% of her max range so he will take 1% of damage. Quite simple in fact, and that not will clean all little trash along as you not run close enough to them

(depend of your power base of course)

Like that a mélée build could be interesting...

The first spel is useless, or at least make it charge ultra more fast, or put a 100% fire status effect or something...

 

 

Or another alternative could be :

-Remove the limite of 5 enemy hit.

-Divide the damage by the number of enemy in range.

 

But i prefer the first one.

 It is a fair opinion, however, my concern is that buffing World on Fire will further overshadow 1/2 of Ember's abilities. Thus the reason for how less engaging Ember currently is.

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Long time ember player.

 

Here is my ideal kit, in line with Ember's namesake.

 

 

New Passive: Backdraft - When taking heat damage Ember will recover up to 10/20/50% of heat damage as fuel based on heat levels from Ultimate. (Lower heat levels equal 50% conversion, higher heat levels = 10%)

Ability 1: Pyroblast - Ember fires a superheated heat damage projectile that ignites the target for X damage. Upon contact with enemies / or collidable objects the projectile explodes dealing area damage, and spawning "ember coal" particles (fuel) Bonus Effect from Ultimate: Particles absorbed by Ember's passive after using this ability contribute both to the Detonation's heat pool and regenerate Ember's health pool.

Ability 2: Accelerant - Same as now, spawns particles (fuel), Increases heat damage. Bonus Effect from Ultimate: Enemies killed while under effect will spawn patches of ground that can be lit on fire by heat abilities or firearms for increased damage and armor while standing on them.

Ability 3: Molten Carapace - Ember sheds all heat from her passive, due to the temperature drop her skin hardens and she gains a short term armor buff that increases based off the amount of heat expelled, reflects attacks against this hardened shell. As heat rises, the buff wears off faster. Bonus effect from ultimate. If used at full heat Ember gains a movement speed buff as well as armor.

Ability 4: On/Off two part 4 ability tied to passive

 

Detonation (When on)

Ember surges with fiery anger, All heat damage increased by x% scales up to maximum % over duration. Every attack made while active increases energy drain. All attacks made while Detonation is active ignite targets for X%, Any target hit during detonation while ignited pulsates with Ember's energy and releases a pulse of damage. Targets killed while active release large amounts of particles (fuel) for Embers next outburst. Enemies hit by the pulsing attacks are ignited. 

Consumption (when off)

When Ember's fourth ability if toggled off all excess heat (particles) in the room is absorbed into Ember as a bonus heat damage. This pooled damage scales over time until a Maximum X is reached. This pooled "heat" can be used to fuel her abilities. Abilities 1-3 have bonus effects based on the heat levels when used.

 

 

Basically Ember will be a roaming backdraft, Creating fires to fuel her ultimate, Have a little bit more tank with an armor boost and passive health absorb on heat damage taken, and more interactivity with her skills. If she wants to clear rooms it will require setup to harvest particles (fuel) to keep her armor up to dive into a swathe of enemies, set everything on fire, build up heat and turn on her ultimate to have short bursts of room clearing AOE burning deathball gameplay without being the SET IT AND FORGET tier of ultimate we have had for years. With full heat ability 3's and her innate move speed on the ability, it will allow ember the ability to get into fights setup, go kaboom, and get out.Her Synergy will allow her to use her fuel particles for healing, armor and mov speed, or detonating for aoe damage.

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9 hours ago, Nadroid said:

Long time ember player.

 

Here is my ideal kit, in line with Ember's namesake.

 

 

New Passive: Backdraft - When taking heat damage Ember will recover up to 10/20/50% of heat damage as fuel based on heat levels from Ultimate. (Lower heat levels equal 50% conversion, higher heat levels = 10%)

Ability 1: Pyroblast - Ember fires a superheated heat damage projectile that ignites the target for X damage. Upon contact with enemies / or collidable objects the projectile explodes dealing area damage, and spawning "ember coal" particles (fuel) Bonus Effect from Ultimate: Particles absorbed by Ember's passive after using this ability contribute both to the Detonation's heat pool and regenerate Ember's health pool.

Ability 2: Accelerant - Same as now, spawns particles (fuel), Increases heat damage. Bonus Effect from Ultimate: Enemies killed while under effect will spawn patches of ground that can be lit on fire by heat abilities or firearms for increased damage and armor while standing on them.

Ability 3: Molten Carapace - Ember sheds all heat from her passive, due to the temperature drop her skin hardens and she gains a short term armor buff that increases based off the amount of heat expelled, reflects attacks against this hardened shell. As heat rises, the buff wears off faster. Bonus effect from ultimate. If used at full heat Ember gains a movement speed buff as well as armor.

Ability 4: On/Off two part 4 ability tied to passive

 

Detonation (When on)

Ember surges with fiery anger, All heat damage increased by x% scales up to maximum % over duration. Every attack made while active increases energy drain. All attacks made while Detonation is active ignite targets for X%, Any target hit during detonation while ignited pulsates with Ember's energy and releases a pulse of damage. Targets killed while active release large amounts of particles (fuel) for Embers next outburst. Enemies hit by the pulsing attacks are ignited. 

Consumption (when off)

When Ember's fourth ability if toggled off all excess heat (particles) in the room is absorbed into Ember as a bonus heat damage. This pooled damage scales over time until a Maximum X is reached. This pooled "heat" can be used to fuel her abilities. Abilities 1-3 have bonus effects based on the heat levels when used.

 

 

Basically Ember will be a roaming backdraft, Creating fires to fuel her ultimate, Have a little bit more tank with an armor boost and passive health absorb on heat damage taken, and more interactivity with her skills. If she wants to clear rooms it will require setup to harvest particles (fuel) to keep her armor up to dive into a swathe of enemies, set everything on fire, build up heat and turn on her ultimate to have short bursts of room clearing AOE burning deathball gameplay without being the SET IT AND FORGET tier of ultimate we have had for years. With full heat ability 3's and her innate move speed on the ability, it will allow ember the ability to get into fights setup, go kaboom, and get out.Her Synergy will allow her to use her fuel particles for healing, armor and mov speed, or detonating for aoe damage.

 

Ember, according to DE in the patch notes I linked in the OP, was meant to be a glass-cannon. Yet I cannot understand nor truly support the idea of a passive where Ember has to be hit by a damage type that only a minuscule amount of enemies can dish out. I'm sorry but I feel needing Ember to damage herself is not a good choice given how hard enemies can hit and given that Ember is not really as tanky enough to take hits.

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My work on the Vauban rework is reaching a point where I feel confident in posting it.

As for the talk on Ember, I still see a lot of suggestions improving World on Fire but not doing much for the other two offensive abilities.

I'll levy in on the reasons why one offensive Ember ability will need to go and explain how Ember is in a similar situation with Vauban further.

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