What's going on with Guides of the Lotus?...

[dan.io.wal]

I've been playing this game for over two years now. This will be my third year. I can count the amount of people I've met in game who are "Guides of the Lotus" on one hand. According to the description of the position, they are a select few players, hand picked by DE to guide any Tenno who is in need of assistance as they travel through warframe. They are generally meant to be more approachable and more trustworthy than your average player. This is done by answering questions, directing users to appropriate channels of communication, helping them within missions, and more. If I'm honest it seems purely unnecessary at this point. This is what clans are for. Hell, sometimes after I've done my daily sorties and syndicate missions, I'll go onto lower level planets and help out some new players. It's really rewarding and fun! I always keep backups of hard to find mods, and a good stock of endo to max them out for new players before I give them the tools to help them on their way. It really makes my day to know I've helped someone enjoy the game more. I played the majority of the game solo to start, and I would have loved to know just how fantastic the community was from the very beginning. From what I've seen, most other players are as well. Is there any particular benefit to the Guides of the Lotus even existing?.. I don't know, I forgot that they actually existed until I saw Rahetalius' video today.

Edited February 24, 2019 by dan.io.wal
Punctuation error*

[Voltage]

I never understood the intention of the program since the internet exists. It seems like some sub group of players who have exclusive badges/cosmetics/accolades that just have a status. I also never understood their recruitment process. After seeing that video from Rahetalius earlier today as well, I don't really see where there is a benefit in having these players be special and separate from other active Tenno who can contribute and help others. Knowledgeable people exist everywhere, and there is no need to give a special badge to a select few which is more eye catching than the genuine Veteran who wants to assist the community.

Edited February 24, 2019 by Voltage
Added a video link for those unaware of my reference

[Hello]

The only guide I have seen is the one that used to post the fashion contest on the forum. I like looking at peoples profile in game quite often to get idea for colors of frames, what armor looks good on certain frames and such since I lack all creativity towards it. Guides have the badge on their profile supposedly, I've never seen it in game. Getting rid of the Guides of the Lotus would be no different than how it is now. Don't see them now, won't have any to see if the program was removed.

When I was starting out, I had no one in game to help out. I found Twitch streamers to ask for help or I learned early on that the wiki would be used a lot.

[NotWhoItSeems]

as the wiki states the guides of the lotus are spoused to help players on low rank relays...

most of the game wouldnt have you go into relays... new players wouldnt simply stop on a relay to ask questions...

that system is needs a rework with the new player exprience... 

[(PSN)OriginalEquinox]

I think I can comfortably say that the majority of the playerbase here does more in a day than these guides do in a week or more. When a new player needs help they go to the internet or one of the chats and ask for help, I doubt anyone even knows these 'guides' exist unless they see a post here on the forum or something. Maybe when the playerbase was smaller and YouTube guides and tutorials were hard to find the few veterans who got selected for this program were able to help players but now they're just a few players with access to exclusive cosmetics and nothing more.

I would love to see DE add some kind of system similar to Overwatch that allows players to give points to other players depending on their experiences and players who reach certain milestones will get a cosmetic badge or something. That way we can really see who helps and who doesn't, maybe limit the amount of rep someone can give per day to prevent abuse

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

The PS4 ones were a nice bunch..but, yeah feels like a lot of them have moved on...Toss it out...the kids are savvy now...

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

4 hours ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

The PS4 ones were a nice bunch..but, yeah feels like a lot of them have moved on...Toss it out...the kids are savvy now...

The PS4 Guides of the Lotus were prominent when Raids were still around, and they actively participated in helping/carrying/educating players on how certain mechanics functioned in those missions. I’ve known a couple of them, and am still in contact with a few. Ever since Raids were removed, they either moved on or help players with 3x3 Eidolon caps or Profit Taker. Still, the playerbase sort of moved on and either educated themselves on the processes or have found other helpful players or means and learn best on what they need to do from there.

The Guides of the Lotus is still a helpful organization of players, but I can’t say that they’re as active now as they were when Raids were around. However I can confirm that if there is a select playerbase that doesn’t communicate in English, there have been several Guides enlisted to help with communications. Maybe that’s where most of their duties are allocated in now.

[Leyers_of_facade]

They have been around for a long time, and frankly, the solutions in the video was far from new. I know at least quite a few players who tried to advocate for such changes, even as early as the days of ~U15. 

Imo, guide of the lotus is like many other things in the game. The idea and concepts of creating such a guide was great (as with other things like rivens), ie giving newer players a better guidance in the game since the tutorial is quite bad. Sadly during the implementation process, something went terribly wrong and now they are stuck digging a deeper and deeper hole. The worse part is, the best solution which imo is "to cut loss" by abandoning / restarting the program is likely going to create an uproar that DE wants to avoid.

Kinda glad a partner finally spoke up about all these, and I am very excited now, ooo the anticipation curious how all these will fold up at the end.

[MagPrime]

It was a nice concept that failed.  DE wanted a fame that encouraged players to do their own research and experimentation, then implemented the Guides, thoroughly confusing new players as to where they go for information. 

It would have been better if they had created a universal Player's Helping Players channel where the Guides were available at all times, even in missions, to answer questions. 

They either need to restart the program or scrap it at this point. 

[Fraank]

Those who have the badge, have it because they wanted it in first place, not because they are extra helpful or friendly towards newer players. Nah, they simply were eager enough to schmooze DE in order to get the badge. There isnt even proof that they are more helpful than any experienced player. 
Lets say 1000 players out of 6million registered loosers applied for the GOTL-"Badge"  and ~50 players got it in the end. Those 1000 players werent even a "random sample", which means they cant even represent the entirety of all warframe players. If we could measure the "helpfulness", as qualitative ordinate, measurable characteristic, i assume the Guides would ve a lower rank than a regular player who simply wants to help, because he loves to help.

In conclusion => Very "special" players out of a "special" sample have the "Guide of the Lotus"-status.

So far you can ignore the Guides. In my opinion, you should simply join a clan or alliance with some experienced players you like. There are some walking WF-libraries out there.

[Bengosha]

From a guides perspective, I want to cover as many bases as I'm able to here..
Yes our visibility IS a huge issue. We all know this and we all talk about it. Often. We have a hundred ideas for how to fix it but its a matter of how to go about it without creating more work for the devs.

As for being useless, I get that. I really do. But there's so many times people (even those in large 'helpful' clans) need someone to step up. I personally respond in the form of whispers to those calling for help in region chat. While this does nothing to help the visibility issue, several of us are very vocal still. We help, it just goes unseen on the larger scale.

In terms of being 'special'. Me, personally.. nothing special to speak of. I get on, I help people, I enjoy my time. That's it. I have nothing left to do but help people. I was recruited after making it clear to a lot of people that I was trying and then I showed that effort more and more. What I do now hasn't changed by joining the program. I just have a badge to show that Im here to help now.

We aren't here to hold your hand through the game. We are here to make sure you understand something so you can enjoy it. You may only need us once in a blue moon or never personally need us. But when the demand calls for it and someone needs to chime in with useful info or a helping hand, we got you. We want to help, we enjoy it and will continue to do so with or without the sigil/accolade. After all, we are just like you. Regular players that want to help when able.

Feel free to message/add me in game on PC if you want to know more or have questions. I'd love to clear up anything that may still be out there.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Bengosha

[master_of_destiny]

Nothing.

 

Having played for years, I can heartily agree with anyone who says the program is worthless.  I say this not as a criticism of the players volunteering, but because realizing the program has never happened.

1) If you are new you were likely to be referred.  Referred players have friends who should give them a hand.

2) If you've managed to try the game because it's free, you're likely frustrated about the mechanics in the first hours of play.  Everything costs platinum, you start with enough for a couple of slots, but you don't know that's what you need to buy so you plow it into something useless (color pallets).  By the time you figure out you can build things for resources, rather than at a platinum cost, you've put the game down in disgust.  Experience over.

3) Assuming you've made it past disgust, you've spent 10 minutes to go to youtube.  The missing 90% of the game is spelled out by people there, because DE keeps bolting on systems without explaining them explicitly.  If you doubt this, start a new game.  Do only what you are told to do.  No purchasing derelict keys.  No building a clan dojo.  No building dragon keys.  No equipping mods, as the tutorial is buried inside the mod tab.  No slot purchasing, because they don't bring up inventory management until after it is full.  

4) Assuming you've made it past youtube, you have learned about the wiki.  Everything is listed there if it is missing from youtube.

 

Note at no point in time have we gone to a relay.  Cephalon Simaris is hours down the road, because "The New Strange" is the first time it matters.  It's the first time we even learn about MR test practices, and it's the first time you might spend long enough on a relay to notice the purple text of a guide.

 

If you wanted this program to work there's an easy way to do it.  Mission 1 stays the same, you put the orbiter back together and get to defeat Vor.  Mission 2 is one where you're forced to play with a guide or with multiple new players.  The goal would be to have them come in, and get wiped.  Cue a demonstration of the ship providing support (introduce that feature).  Give the player a packet of basic mods, and force them to equip them.  While equipping have a guide join the party, hiding this lag behind the tutorial.  Now, let the guide show you what a modified frame can do, while demonstrating even low level mods let the player power up and beat what stomped them before.  Finally, incorporate a sentinel being discovered in the wreckage of a ship.  Said sentinel introduces companions, and can be absolute garbage (the goal here is sentinel-kubrow-sentinel-kavat-player choice progression).  

Once mission 2 ends the guide and new tenno go into a relay.  From there, the guide can talk to the new tenno, until they're set.  Standard conversation would be to highlight the wiki, demonstrate relay chat, and to generally ask if there's anything else.  Once the initial interaction is completed the guide automatically friends the new Tenno, and there's a point of contact.  DE exerts control by asking the tenno to rate their guide, and the bottom 10% and a random sampling of the other 90% is done monthly.  Toxic messes get removed, guides get a chance to demonstrate their skills if the rating are somehow skewed negatively, and DE gets to continue not explaining anything.

 

 

After multiple years, the problem I run into is that none of this seems to be a focus.  I remember a time before the guides, and they didn't really improve anything once implemented.  It isn't their fault, but they should have gone the way raids did.  Once the program was proven ineffective it should have been shuttered or modified.  The issue is that it's become some status symbol, and something which could show favoritism.  The program has therefore been left to rot, and is useless.  I wish guides mattered, but the are more about the politics than helping new players.  I reiterate that this is not by their choice, but by being implemented poorly.  Maybe by update 30 we'll have something, but I stopped wishing a long time ago.  My bar for happiness is that DE doesn't start any wars with their community.  

The game chases trends after they peak, and at this rate the next trend is taking extreme offense at criticism, and using the nuclear option.  Think Metro Exodus levels of people justifiably miffed, and the response being a string of threats.  I hope they're smart enough to look past their own egos, admit their failures, and do better.  If not, another 2 year hiatus isn't unreasonable.  This is especially likely if they follow the seasons shenanigans.  There's nothing like the illusion of choice, hidden behind a timed wall of artificial grind.  Destiny and Fortnite....why chase games that have reached their inflection points within the zeitgeist?

[Owlski]

Before I share my end, I wish to clarify that I (like Bengosha) am a Guide of the Lotus. 
I don't think I personally could word/express my thoughts any better than he has already, but I'll try my best to share my own personal insight, and to help answer questions/clear up any confusions.

As Ben has mentioned; Our major issue I find for the GotL program is visibility. It's a constant thing brought up with us Guides, and it's been an issue even before I joined.
A lot of tenno may not know it, but there is usually a good handful of active Senior/Junior Guides just in the region chat, helping to answer questions, redirect players, and aiding those asking for help. Most people don't see/notice them as they look like any other tenno. 

Is the program outdated/unnecessary?
I genuinely see and understand where you guys are coming from on this. There are many tenno out there who aren't Guides, but actively help and seek out players in need, and that's great! However, I find there will always be players who need help, and having a collective group that can ping/message and call other like-minded individuals to aid those in need is (what I personally find) to be the most advantageous aspect of this program. 

I can't speak for others, but I personally wasn't recommended into the program.
In general, I personally like to help out people. Always have.
Since I was young, I always found a sense of satisfaction for helping out a player, seeing them happy/enjoying themselves, and knowing that I played a role in it.
So when I saw DE had opened up applications for the GotL, I thought that since I already essentially help out players, I figured I'd apply. 

In game, I often won't openly express I'm a GotL unless asked. (I personally feel like I'm boasting if I do so, if not warranted/asked.)
That being said; Us Guides are just like everyone else. We're players like you guys, and are just as passionate about the game & the community. 

------------------
I don't honestly know if this answered any questions that you guys have about us/our program, but I wish to reciprocate Bengosha's offer, and state that if any of your guys have any further questions that you wish to personally ask me, I'm always open to hearing your guys end, and (hopefully) doing my best to clarify mine. 😅
Sadly, I'm on PC as well, but I'm sure there are many console Guides who would also gladly extend the same offer to those of you on console. 

[Sean]

"Guides of the Lotus" is a program that is simply unneeded.

Even to the two people in this topic stating they are guides, do either of you actually need a little program to help people? Are you only doing it BECAUSE of the program? Would you still help people if the program was retired and the badge/cosmetics were removed?

 

A lot of people help others and expect nothing in return, I'd even wager that a lot of people throughout this very topic have done so.

The program itself needs to just go, it serves no purpose.

 

The people who want to help will continue to do so regardless of a little badge, armor, or profile icon.

[Owlski]

1 hour ago, Sean said:

"Guides of the Lotus" is a program that is simply unneeded.

Even to the two people in this topic stating they are guides, do either of you actually need a little program to help people? Are you only doing it BECAUSE of the program? Would you still help people if the program was retired and the badge/cosmetics were removed?

 

A lot of people help others and expect nothing in return, I'd even wager that a lot of people throughout this very topic have done so.

The program itself needs to just go, it serves no purpose.

 

The people who want to help will continue to do so regardless of a little badge, armor, or profile icon.

As stated in my previous post; I've always been one to help someone.
So regardless of what happens to the program, I would still be helping people. Guide or not. 

While the program definitely needs to be improved upon, I still believe that it serves a good function (as explained in my main post). Moreover, there's aspects of unity that we can accomplish that would be significantly harder to achieve if anyone were simply on their own.
Ultimately, removing the program I would see as a great loss to both the community and the game. 

If I may counter your point with the opposing question; 
Would there be any determent if Guides (solely as a community dedicated to helping players) would cause if kept in effect?

Genuinely curious on your guys take and open for a discussion.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Owlski

[Sean]

4 minutes ago, Owlski said:

As stated in my previous post; I've always been one to help someone.
So regardless of what happens to the program, I would still be helping people. Guide or not. 

While the program definitely needs to be improved upon, I still believe that it serves a good function (as explained in my main post). Moreover, there's aspects of unity that we can accomplish that would be significantly harder to achieve if anyone were simply on their own.
Ultimately, removing the program I would see as a great loss to both the community and the game. 

If I may counter your point with the opposing question; 
Would there be any determent if Guides (solely as a community dedicated to helping players) would cause if kept in effect?

Genuinely curious on your guys take and open for a discussion.

 

I personally see it as something that quite a few people use to just get shiny badges / exclusive stuff and feel part of an exclusive club.

While obviously it wouldn't be all, it just seems like something easily corruptible, especially when combined with the chat moderator program.

 

I would much rather see the "Guides of the Lotus" program turned into a literal "Guide" for the game and then some new chat tab focused on new players being able to ask for help on various questions with anyone being able to answer. I'm also the type of person that will help out another in the game when they need it (and I have known many others who are the same), but just the program for "Guides of the Lotus" just feels so unnecessary and just falls into the trap of turning only into a "club" and losing focus.

[Owlski]

 

1 hour ago, Sean said:

 

I personally see it as something that quite a few people use to just get shiny badges / exclusive stuff and feel part of an exclusive club.

While obviously it wouldn't be all, it just seems like something easily corruptible, especially when combined with the chat moderator program.

 

I would much rather see the "Guides of the Lotus" program turned into a literal "Guide" for the game and then some new chat tab focused on new players being able to ask for help on various questions with anyone being able to answer. I'm also the type of person that will help out another in the game when they need it (and I have known many others who are the same), but just the program for "Guides of the Lotus" just feels so unnecessary and just falls into the trap of turning only into a "club" and losing focus.

I can definitely see where you're coming from, and interesting points overall to ponder.
While I don't doubt that some people who have applied for the GotL program have done so more more selfish reasons (like gaining the title/exclusivity of the items), I've known the program to be fairly steadfast when rooting out tho who are simply in it for such things. I also encourage and implore anyone that see's any Guide abusing their rights, to screenshot, report, and forward such things to support. As Guides, our ways of identification (sigil,armor, etc) are purely used to help identify us. Any Guide using any 'leverage' to gain unfair advantages are not above the ToS, nor should they be treated as such.

The GotL Sigil (and later) shoulder armor were added to try and combat the sort of visibility issues Bengosha and I have mentioned prior.
I personally admit that they aren't the most effective things in helping players identify us, and (thus) know to be able to approach us for help if need be. This discussion is well known between us Guides/the program as a whole.
For the solution about having a tab chat solely focused on helping players, I'd love to see something like this as well, as that'd help narrow the window (so to speak) for players to have a more effective way at getting help.


I will however point out one thing you stated, that is often seen as a common misunderstanding. 

1 hour ago, Sean said:

it just seems like something easily corruptible, especially when combined with the chat moderator program.

The Guide of the Lotus program, and the Moderation program aren't combined. We're two separate programs, and have been for quite some time now.
While it's true some Senior Guides ended up becoming moderators in the past, this has no longer been the case for many years.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Owlski

[Sean]

Just now, Owlski said:

 

I can definitely see where you're coming from, and interesting points overall to ponder.
While I don't doubt that some people who have applied for the GotL program have done so more more selfish reasons (like gaining the title/exclusivity of the items), I've known the program to be fairly steadfast when rooting out tho who are simply in it for such things. I also encourage and implore anyone that see's any Guide abusing their rights, to screenshot, report, and forward such things to support. As Guides, our ways of identification (sigil,armor, etc) are purely used to help identify us. Any Guide using any 'leverage' to gain unfair advantages.

The GotL Sigil (and later) shoulder armor were added to try and combat the sort of visibility issues Bengosha and I have mentioned prior.
I personally admit that they aren't the most effective things in helping players identify us, and (thus) know to be able to approach us for help if need be. This discussion is well known between us Guides/the program as a whole.
For the solution about having a tab chat solely focused on helping players, I'd love to see something like this as well, as that'd help narrow the window (so to speak) for players to have a more effective way at getting help.
 

I will however point out one thing you stated, that is often seen as a common misunderstanding. 

The Guide of the Lotus program, and the Moderation program aren't combined. We're two separate programs, and have been for quite some time now.
While it's true some Senior Guides ended up becoming moderators in the past, this has no longer been the case for many years.

 

Interesting and appreciated on the clarification on the changes within GotL as one of the major glaring issues I had with it was how it was used as a "stepping stone" for some people to then become chat moderators... especially with some of the "problematic" moderators that regularly cause some issue or another.

Good to hear that there is now a solid barrier between the two programs as not all potentially good chat moderators would make good GotL and vice versa.

[Bengosha]

I just want to throw this out there too 😄