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[DE]Rebecca

Nightwave: Series 1

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This system is seriously imbalanced. With alerts you could spent ~5-15min playing one mission and getting one reward, now you spend 30 minutes to an hour playing several missions and get some points, towards getting some other points, towards getting a reward.

You can easily play 17 missions and get absolutely nothing in return: lets say you play 8 bounties for 3000 and 9 invasions 3000, that gets you 6000 points, which gets you... absolutely nothing.

The next problem is wolf cred: You don't even get any wolf cred from playing all those missions, heck even if you got 10000 points and ranked up, there is still no guarantee that you get any wolf cred this rank, which means no rewards. Even if you were the luckiest person in the world, you'd would have to play at least 30 missions just to get your first batch of wolf cred, which is only enough to get 3 nitain extract.

And then there is the huge problem of the store itself: because even if you fix the balance of the rest of the system, the idea of a store really falls apart when the currency is so hard to come by. Who's going to feel good spending weeks worth of grinding on a few piddly nitain? What player is ever going to spend their limited cred on some cosmetic statue when the store also has catalysts, reactors, nitain, and slots???

And of course the biggest problem is the tasks themselves: you have literally given players a list of chores. A list of banal, time filling chores. "Kill this many enemies, Scan this many things" who finds this fun? no one, I doubt even the people who support this system find those entertaining in any way. If you're going to give us the most boring fluff tasks, at least drop the numbers so its less monotonous. 

 

As far as I see it this system is a complete disaster, and frankly a slap in the face, but if you still want to support it, at least put alerts back in the game. As a player with 3000+ hours even just on the on steam edition, Alerts were honestly the only thing that had me coming back.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Saberpeep said:

Even if you were the luckiest person in the world, you'd would have to play at least 30 missions just to get your first batch of wolf cred, which is only enough to get 3 nitain extract.

Just a little correction. It's 15 (they're sold in a batch of 5), but nowhere near enough to build something like a Vauban Prime anyway.

 

16 minutes ago, Saberpeep said:

And of course the biggest problem is the tasks themselves: you have literally given players a list of chores. A list of banal, time filling chores. "Kill this many enemies, Scan this many things" who finds this fun? no one, I doubt even the people who support this system find those entertaining in any way. If you're going to give us the most boring fluff tasks, at least drop the numbers so its less monotonous.  

So much this T_T

Edited by Athizea
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Posted (edited)

Why DE... Why you want me play with others, why can't a I play alone anymore? This nightthing is terrible, I've spent the hole day on that only to get rank 2 into the rewards, wich is nothing usefull, I remember you guys talking about making the game better for new players, honestly, you really think the night waves are welcoming for these new player? they can't do sorties, they can't kill 500 enemis that fast, some of them don't even know what a eximus is, or how to make scans, or who the hell is simaris, this was the worst update you've made so far in the game, not just useless, but downgrading, warframe has been the only game I play continuously for years, and as times goes my will to play it fades, just hope you realize what you're doing wrong quicky, and hotfix it, as you always do, and by hotfixing I mean completely delete the nightwave from the game, thanks.

Edited by LhenriqueB
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Posted (edited)

Some questions:
• How long does the season last? It would be nice if we can clearly see how many days left before the season ends so we can actually "plan" ahead.
• Do we have to complete all the task to be able to get the last reward OR doing all the task just provide more points BUT you'll get enough points by doing just the regular ones, no need to stress about elite tasks, coz obviously those are for geared/experienced players. Again, it would be nice if we can see the total amount of points we need if we're planning to achieve all the rewards offered. Some of these tasks are a bit hard to accomplish (I'm undergeared and inexperienced for Hydrolist so this task is difficult unless I will be carried, for example) and that would be unfair if we can't get all the rewards offered just because we're undergeared for some of the tasks.
• Is there an alternative way of earning points especially for those who are still at the early game? This is supposed to replace the alert system which was very helpful for beginners. Now this new system, while it offers good rewards, the tasks assigned can be demanding. Think about someone who haven't done The War Within yet, they're already missing out 5000 points. Does this player have a chance to get the final reward or are he's just gonna have to wait for another rotation and hopefully he's geared enough to accomplish all the task by that time?

Edited by Yxivi
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Switch player here. I have about 300 hours in this game and almost MR18 so kind of a new player compared to most here. Just want to share my opinion regarding Nightwave, the game feels like a chore to me now with this new system. For example, I used to get Nitain Extract in a few minutes but with the new system this has become impossible. Instead I have to farm Nightwave standing, get Wolf credits and spend it to get stuff like Nitain. This system is definitely not friendly towards new players and casual players. I think they should’ve kept the Alerts alongside Nightwave instead of completely removing it. I love the grind in this game but I definitely don’t like this. 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Leon-Darkheart said:

you should have copyrighted your idea mate, they stole it and made it worse ^^;

Given that my cautious optimism was kind of crushed with this busywork actually non-story-driven-no-mission-driven radio, I'm dreading what I initially was excited about Railjack and this tweet by Steve showing that he would be putting Star Wars Battlefrontish influences into Archwing, another thing I've been hoping for years to see.

It'll probably be influences from SW BF2 (2017) and not the infinitely better SW BF2 (2005) one.
(Take the massive scale of those space battles, maybe implement Section 8: Prejudice style gamemodes into corpus vs grineer invasions/crossfire on land for interesting dynamical large battles.)

To be fair to Railjack, at least we saw promising footage of it, which is a lot more than what they teased about Nightwave.
We really needed Nora telling us about intel she picked out, share a story of refugees, prisoners, spies, and those would directly lead to available rescue, mobile defence, capture etc missions, that would not just give a delayed reward with meaningless standing, but an immediate one (Wolf Creds would have been a start) as well to give instant feedback and feel, well, rewarding.

This feels like the devs felt pressure about not releasing an update that would give content to all players, new and old alike, as the last big one in december was mainly stuff locked behind maxing standing on Fortuna, having end game gear to do those Profit Taker heists - I haven't done any of that, taken a chill approach in doing bounties to not burn myself out, and most new players and casuals had nothing to interact with from that update.

They've been spinning a lot of plates recently, with Railjacks, Gas City, Plains rework, Hildryn, Melee, Teased quests and other frames and stuff. And they've delayed their stuff, again and again, with melee, gas city and Hildryn being the most recent ones.

So it feels like they desperately pushed out this update to have something out, even if it's incomplete and half-baked.
Gutting Alerts to give us the old Affinity challenges that were always a nice tiny bonus on the side as now our main (only) focus for our long term grind goal towards some loot later down the tiers, is just... Ugh.

Can you tell how disappointed I am?'

EDIT:
To those praising the new system and just parroting that this helps new players and casuals, please provide a REASON why you think that, and not that the loot is reliable (the challenges are unpredictable and can come and bite you when you realise you can't do them, either because of gear or time or being anti fun), which is also highly questionable given how little wolf creds you get through the entire event, and how unreliable the forecast is for getting to the last tier in order to earn more wolf creds.
Earlier system:
- Keep a lookout, sure random alerts, but could be done quickly and then get back to real life.
New System:
-Random chores that require commitment of hours a day or week for an extended period of time, for now and all future series.
-New players lost resources, opportunities to level up archwings and other gear in appropriate opportune levels and taxis
-Casuals lost fun surprises and are instead reminded daily in the game that they have a boring chore list to get through.

Edited by SnuggleBuckets
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, noneuklid said:

I freaking love Nora, and I love the atmosphere of this update.

*Snip*

I could not disagree more - her incoherent rambling gets annoying really fast - I just want to press the turn off button.

Edited by Shadow-Spawn
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how many days does  this go for? i cant seem to find an ACTUAL date. Like a few weeks, a month, a season?!?!

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7 minutes ago, EsperSparks said:

how many days does  this go for? i cant seem to find an ACTUAL date. Like a few weeks, a month, a season?!?!

There is no actual date. They said the event will last ~10 weeks, so maybe the'll expand it a bit, maybe not.

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I was excited at the beginning with this "surprise" update and new content. As I consider my self a Vet of the game, I didn't care much about the alerts except some special ones (catalysts, formas, reactors) and the ones with the new alternative helmets. I sometimes played for Auras (popular ones) just to have extras for sale or mostly for giving away to "newbies" or clan mates in need. After I played most of the challenges and ranked up some levels (3 I think) I am not that excited anymore and seriously I kind feel petty for those new players.

I am lucky enough to have almost everything the game has to offer specially those things that were dropped by alerts, only missing the two new alternative helmets for Baruuk and Titania, I will get them eventually one way or the other. Still I feel uncomfortable and a bit anxious about how to get those and a couple of other new (?) stuff appearing through the Nightwave system. The Wolf Creds are so difficult to collect and I am wondering, how much time a new player might need to get all the needed auras and alternative helmets through this system. Not talking about potatoes, resources and other useful stuff, especially for a newbie 🙂. I believe a long time and not sure if I was a new player I could keep up with it. I spent yesterday 40 out of my first 50 Creds to get the ornament and already feeling unsure if that was a good move (its kinda small and unworthy of those 40 Creds?).

After the Vitus Essence a new kind of currency appear in the game and again very time consuming to get those in order to "buy" whatever the associated stuff this new currency has. I stopped playing the Arbitrations myself because the Fortuna update landed soon after and all my friends (including myself) moved there to do the necessary "killing, farming, grafting, fishing, etc". Haven't collected until now all the vitus essence offers and at the moment I don't care a lot to be honest.

I think that there could be two solutions to this matter:

1. Bring back the alerts system for Auras, Helmets, Nitains, Potatoes, etc but make them last longer (12 or 24 hours) so that everyone has the time to play them. Perhaps in the same alert you could choose at the end which Aura or helmet or rare resource to get from a list of offerings, much like the relics missions have.

2. Everytime you level up a rank at Nightwave you should get the "special reward" and an fixed (or scaling with the rank) amount of Wolf Creds, so that its easier for a player to get more Auras or helmets or nitains (seems to be the resource most players need and worried about).

At this time Wolf Creds rewarded through this special "syndicate" I think are not enough, especially for those new players needing plenty of the stuff offered.

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I do hope the dev's really go through all this feedback I was a bit gutted they didn't mention anything in the DevStream, Anyway if your listening this very disgruntled player has decided to have a little hope and faith in you that you will see that not keeping the old system and removing this content is really unfair to new players and that you will reinstate it on the next hotfix, would it even need a hot fix or just some tweaks on your end since the framework is still their and we still get some gifts and so on? I just went and bought the Rage pack, I hope its not my last.

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After only 3 days of this Saturn Six, I think burnt out is a real concern. Incentivizing players to re-play old content, over and over, isn't going to make it any more enjoyable just because there's a handful of desirable rewards to unlock in 1-2 months. If i had to weigh up reward vs effort, I'd be looking at finally dusting off some other games i've been neglecting up til now.

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My feedback:

* Many of the challenges are really tedious and grindy. 8 bounties on PoE for example: they take a lot of time to complete and by themselves are pretty unrewarding, unless you are new to the Plains. It makes sense to do the quickest of bounties (i.e. of Tier 1) so that you can speed up the progress, but these are of trivial difficulty and even more boring. Another example, invasions: still many of those are required for the challenge and they too become tedious.

* Forcing co-op with friends or clan members feels wrong. Many players run solo clans or don't have in-game friends but they still play in public groups which is also by definition co-op, just of a different kind. It feels some sort of punishment for a portion of the player base for no good reason (forcing in-game "friendships" or clan memberships makes no sense).

* Ayatan treasures: filling 5 of them as a challenge is pointless. First of all, not many people keep them around for long because there is already an immediate motivation to transform them into endo. Secondly, amber stars are hard to come by in large quantities. This feels like a challenge designed to push people into Arbitrations for some reason. [Note: I have a few dozen Ayatans in my inventory and I completed the challenge in seconds, so this is not some personal grudge, I just find this a pointless challenge]

* 3 rounds of Sanctuary Onslaught: my suggestion is to make it to 4 or 6 (or even 8, that would qualify as "elite" as well) for reasons that have to do with the rotatation rewards of the challenge. It is conceivable that someone plays the mode to get those rewards, but such a player would be "punished" by having people jump out of the mode right after wave 3. By matching the Nightwave challenge with the SO rotation would make more sense.

* In general, my feeling from my first experiences with the new system, is that I felt forced to do stuff in the game that I haven't really felt like to in a long time. I was reminded, for example, why I don't like PoE bounties. Now, revisiting stuff is sometimes alright, but my feelings towards things I didn't like hasn't changed. I still don't like most of the PoE bounties - I just felt forced to do them. I know the counter-argument of course which is "don't do them, then!" but in the end it all boils down to how long we have as players to complete the series up to Tier 30 or at least get the intermediate rewards we want. If we do have enough time, fine, then by all means include some challenges that are completely boring. However, try more to integrate the challenges of the new system into habits that players already have.

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I would just like to thank the devs @ DE for this update, after 400+ logins, the removal of the Alerts system and the implementation of 'Nightwave' has driven me back into playing other games instead, thank you once again, as my Sim Racing skills had become somewhat rusty, I now have the time and inclination to polish them up. 👍

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So I went and read every post in this thread (whew) and I think I came to a conclusion:

the Nightwave series tiered rewards would be a really nice system to get new content... IF the Wolf cred shop wasn't anchored to it.

Veteran players can just do every act and fast and get the nice unique Wolf stuff....but the new players are going to struggle HARD to get the old alert rewards.

Maybe there could be another way to earn Wolf credits that is not tied to specific tasks and specific tiers? So a new player could just play what missions they can/want and buy the things they need without being limited to one thing every couple weeks? Right now there's Wolf Creds only at tiers 3-6-12-20-24, so it's not even one old alert reward every week... Is a Dark Dagger blueprint really worth all that work? You could make the potatoes cost way more in this case, to balance the easier access to Wolf dollars?

When I heard DE describe Nightwave on the dev stream, I honestly thought it was an amazing idea, because I imagined players could actually farm for wolf credits on OUR terms and times and then buy what we needed in the shop, like any other syndicate. Sure, things would cost more points, but I imagined we could just grind missions as we pleased and be able to afford anything we wanted. If an alt helmet took 10 minutes in an alert before, now it could take 20 or 30 minutes of play in any mission you chose to play and at any time you chose to play at. Instead it's a small fixed amount locked behind fixed acts and fixed tiers. How is this better than alerts really?

TLDR: Nightwave series is a good addition to the game BUT Wolf cred shop for old alert loot is bad.

My proposal: uncouple Wolf creds from main progression or at least give alternative ways to gain them that aren't locked down hard?

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Things I like:

  • The predictability is good, in that there's a known list of tasks and you don't get the mismatch between affinity objective and mission type that you frequently saw with the old affinity system.
  • I like the tasks that you can do as you go, like killing 500 enemies or killing 20 enemies by sliding.
  • Even the low-rank rewards are attractive, specifically weapon and warframe slots, and having a reliable way of acquiring potato blueprints makes them far less anxiety-inducing.
  • Having enemies specific to the current episode is fun to see.

Things I'd like to see changed:

  • I'm still relatively new, and I know how important alerts were for me to fundraise. I'm worried new players will have an even tougher time raising credits.
  • The current set of missions are fairly grindy - three capture, nine invasion, eight bounties. The alert system encouraged you to do different mission types instead of repeating the same one over and over (the big issue I have with Simaris targets), and I'd like to see that aspect carried forward.
  • The weekly missions only provide a reward if you do all of them in time. I'd like to see staged missions, so if you do the first part, you get a portion of the reward, but it can also be a more bite-sized goal.
  • The weekly missions encourage players to do as low-level content as they can because it's quicker. I'd like to see players encouraged to do mid-range missions as well.
  • I'd like there to be a cap on the number of weekly missions you can get credit for, so some of the weeklies that are annoying, distasteful or beyond our abilities can be skipped without feeling like I'm screwing myself out of rewards.
  • My biggest hope for the weekly missions is that they can be directly related to the current episode. For example, while 'complete 3 capture missions' is active, the capture targets are replaced by a Saturn Six escapee, or when we hit certain milestones for scanning targets, we get a transmission from Nora implying she's intercepting our scans and finding some new piece of information on the Wolf.
  • I'm hoping the episode-specific changes become more substantial. For example, it'd be cool to be able to go to Saturn Six directly as we get closer to the end of the episode.
  • Nora's transmissions are too generic. Repetition is inevitable, but it sounds like she's only got three responses to mission completion. At minimum, these should be unique across the week, and ideally, they'd fit the mission. They also get cut off when they're "complete a kind of mission" goals.
  • My expectation when this was released was that this would be an ongoing story, but I don't appear to be able to advance it. I'd much prefer it if ranking up made more story content available. If more story content is intended to be released after some time has elapsed, I still think there also needs to be a way for story to advance by rank.

My assumption is that these stories are supposed to be one-and-done, to avoid the issue where many of the game's bosses are characterised through events that ran at specific times before I started playing.

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Tenno are listening to the radio 'cause the battle is over and the Lotus can't find any new alert mission to do. So, the Tenno spent their time doing Xbox achievements for the new DJ who replaces the Lotus. These are my feelings. Sometimes there is a new invasion... That's fine, if you want to help your fellows Corpus or Grineer, or you can continue listening to the radio. 😐

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Merusworks said:

I'm still relatively new, and I know how important alerts were for me to fundraise. I'm worried new players will have an even tougher time raising credits.
 

Its not the credits that are the problem its the resources we used to get from the alerts especially nitain, something I could pick  a few up of each day happily and keep my build queue ticking over with, now I am all out and already need 11 more, yeah sure I will get them soon when I finish another 2 tasks but that will be it for the week instead of my nice constant supply I had before, plus the alerts broke up the grin on my other activities, there really is no reason to remove the Alerts and a still allow Nightwave to stay a it is.

Doing this doesn't hurt anyone and the only reason I see them wanting to not is so we go and buy more things from the market instead of crafting them. Wouldn't be surprised is Nitain becomes a plat Item either.

Edit. Plus the serious extra time investment to get the same rewards I used to get in 5 minutes.

Edited by TheSkunkyMonk
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, nikola32123 said:

how are we going to get rewards after wolf creds expire?

By playing the new Nightwave Season that will replace the "Wolf of Saturn Six", something like the "Squirrel of Eris two" or however it'll be called.

 

You're now running in a hamster wheel for your rewards, at the start of a season you have to get ranks to get currency to buy your old Alert rewards at the end of it all progress is wiped along side all Credits unused and you start all over again in a new season.

 

You're now basically playing "Battle Passes" one after another none stop or you don't get your old rewards or the new ones of course.

 

Edit: Is it wrong that I now REALLY want to play something called "The Squirrel of Eris two"?

Edited by Drivrius
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Drivrius said:

If by the end I still have 10 Wolf Credits I can't buy anything with, why can't they carry over to the next event?

This bugs me too, a lot! I don't remember anything else  from any other event that just vanishes, i still have thousands of Antiserum Injector Fragments, hundreds of Trembera Essence, Kappa and Omega and whatnot Beacons, we can keep those, but those essential Wolf Creds? Nah, expire after 10 weeks. Didn't spend all in time? Wasted your grind...

It would instantly improve the whole nightwave system if at least those creds would persist and could be used in the next episode. That way players could build up a base of credits to spend on stuff when they need it. Instead of figuring out the need of a few Nitain and then having to do nightwaves for 3 weeks to get them and starting over for the next time.

Maybe even have the ranks persist too and create an endless rotation like AABC just spread over 30 ranks, having it repeat the most valuable stuff at the end (you surely only need the sigils once, right?) and indicate the reached rank on the profile stats.

Edit: Looking through the cred offerings again i noticed that you can only gain wolf creds in batches of 50 and the only way to spend all of them is by buying the weapon blueprints (heat sword and dark dagger cost 50 each), the mods (20) or vauban parts (25). These are obvious parts that you would only need once. If you spend your creds on a potato (75), statue (40), helmet (35) or nitain (15), you're condemned to waste some of your creds.

Edited by TheFBD
Paragraph about wasted wolf creds
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On 2019-02-28 at 4:11 AM, yourmadwife said:

Nitain Extract is probably still recievable on Fortuna rotation early lunchz Eudico quests as a reward on Venus.

ghoul purge on plains is the best way to get nitain 

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Nightwave looks cool. Some aspects of it are fun. But I have other things to grind for. Things that are a lot more fun to me. And to me, because I will need the items in Nightwave, you've made it to where I'm going to have to pay for it.

I was looking forward to having a collection of all of the weapons and Warframes. I wanted to level them all up and play with them. 

Now, I'm going to have to get rid of some for slots. Makes me sad. I was having so much fun. 

Now, I'm not even looking forward to the new weapons and Warframes. And why should I. It'll be a Grindfest just to level, potato and forma. Then I'll get to play them like I want to?

I never minded paying for prime access. I wanted to support this awesome free to play game. Now you're forcing me to buy because I'm not going to be able to get the items. No, I'm done with that. It will make the game tedious... And where's the fun in that.

We're not that naive to believe this is a better alternative to the Alert system because it was more fair to your players because they would miss something.

A fix for that would be to make the Alerts last longer or be more frequent. There, jobs done. See how easy that was?

Nightwave is cool. Yes, it looks fun but it shouldn't replace Alerts. It should just be another fun way to play the game. 

Yes, there's a better way to get credits and resources. But you have totally forgotten about the new players. 

If you're a veteran it's "What's the big deal." Have you forgotten how hard it was to get enough recourses, credits and Endo? If you're a veteran like me none of this is a problem now. I've more credits, resources and Endo than I need. I don't even turn in my sculptures.

If you're new to the game, well, you've just made it harder for them. They're not going to stick around.

In the beginning it was hard. Crappy weapons and a serious grind for everything. Get in with randoms and they don't care about opening all the lockers, containers and farming. They don't care about fishing, mining and looking for sculptures. They just want to get in and out as fast as they can. Which is one of the reasons I play solo. Yeah, you did it faster but I got the sculpture. 

I understand doing the mission just for the end result but if you're a new player that sucks. Yeah, you can do nodes that have greater rewards than the alerts but again you forget your place. You're NOT new to the game.

They have to struggle with doing the quests, opening nodes and replacing those crappy weapons. Which is why the Alerts are so important.

If you really wanted to fix the alerts you would actually fix it. Make it better. Last longer. Add new alerts more often. Make it mean something. Help new players.

This Nightwave, sweet. A replacement, it is not.

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Things that need attention/fixing:

 

1) Nitain

There needs to be a somewhat reliable and relative quick way to get at least a few units here and there - especially for newer players.

a) create a (tradable, one-time use) blueprint for it and move it to the clan dojo.

b) or add Nitain to the battle pay tables of Invasions.

 

2) Wolf creds are tedious to get... they need to stay persistent across the 10 weeks cycles.

That way the grind is still tedious and aggravating enough to satisfy the Dev's sadistic side  (looking at you bloody syndicates standings) but at least you know you will get there eventually (for essentials like auras or potatoes and for "unimportant" stuff like cosmetics and various blueprints for mediocre weapons).

On your own time, because as it is now you are actively punishing players who can not invest enough time to do all these somewhat arbitrary chores this new system forced onto us.

You are basically saying if you can not invest x amount of time into this new system you can as well forget it even exists, certain things you will never ever get from it. And honestly this kind of discouragement and punishment really stinks. A lot.

 

 

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