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Nightwave: Series 1

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2 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

Because the development team felt that the alert system was too antiquated and too flawed to properly bring back, and instead went forward with creating a new system designed around removing the flaws of the old one.

Or in short: Because the two systems would be redundant, and increase player workload.

Did it remove the flaws though?

It's still time constrained, even more so if we take a hard look at it, it's more exclusionary than alerts ever were. And unlike alerts it actually divides the player base instead of congregating them. So i'd say they did a poor job...

In fact there's only one spot that overlaps between nightwave and alerts, which is the wolf creds offerings. That's the only thing that nightwave has in common with alerts.
It's less about replacing alerts with a better system, and more they didn't want to think up a new reward pool for the wolf creds system, and just shoved the alert rewards into it.

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30 minutes ago, kytro117 said:

So you don't even know! This excuse of Capacity is a terrible one. 

Context, please. The guy above said "it's proven that Nightwave and Alert System can co-exist". I've asked him for a proof. 

31 minutes ago, kytro117 said:

otherwise It is not our problem!.

Wonderful stance.

33 minutes ago, kytro117 said:

Gifts of the Lotus (Which is an Alert BTW, so that rules out compatibility issues)

Because manually generating a unique mission node with a selected reward is absolutely the same as heaving a system, generating those randomly on an hourly (or so) basis.

Yes, I know that Invasions (and Nightmare nodes, and Kuva nodes) still exist. Let's assume you've got me on this one and they just wanted to get rid of the old stuff - what now?

38 minutes ago, kytro117 said:

Where can I get a refund for my Tennocon ticket

Well - if the removal of Alerts really makes you fly off the handle, despite all the other upgrades and new stuff being implemented...

Refund it. It will be bought again in a matter of minutes.

42 minutes ago, kytro117 said:

Knowing you, you'll say 'We don't have the Capacity'

We don't have the Capacity

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35 minutes ago, xTerrain said:

I missed a part too: do you have a source for that, or is it just an assumption?

You've also missed the part about "Nightwave could use some tweaking". We could have come to some conclusions on that, but you want the communism and kerosine lamps alerts back.

Also yes - it was an assumption. That could be clearly seen from such phrase as "I believe". What followed were my personal possible examples that are irrelevant.

44 minutes ago, xTerrain said:

freeing up Alerts to get back to providing a potential break from the tedium that is grinding for resources

I had 3 instances of grinding for resources:

- Oxium for Grattler (when the Ospreys spawned more seldom than me getting laid)

- Polymers for Energy Restores (was right after Razorback and a "I must craft everything in the ready-to-build section")

- Cryotic for Sibear (well... yeah, I'm not entertained -_-)

Also there was a forth one - Wisps and Gems.

There were 2 Oxium alerts that actually helped.

As of now - I'm MR25. I was just playing the game most of the time. Your argument about the grind feels alien to me.

 

Anyway - we have different stances on the matter and I see no point in stretching this particular barking session further.

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1 hour ago, xTerrain said:

They...really wouldn't be.  Heck, if anything they'd work wonders together because you could do half the Nighwave challenges IN Alert missions with no problems.  The only thing they share is rewards, and not even the big ones from Nightwave.  And that's not a problem.  it's a choice.  If you need Nitain or whatever, and the alert shows up, that's one less thing that you need to uncompromisingly focus on Nightwave for.  That's good.  It can serve to break the tedium of the typical grind.  That's been an important function of Alerts since their introduction.  Giving resources and even credits could keep players from JUST playing the one mission or planet for far longer than they'd enjoy it.

The only "flaw" with the Alert system was that it couldn't be counted on to consistently supply the necessary materials that were next to exclusive to it.  Which would no longer be any problem with Nightwave beside it, being a consistent, grindier source for those same rewards, freeing up Alerts to get back to providing a potential break from the tedium that is grinding for resources for players with less-than infinite patience in doing the same exact mission over and over again.  Alerts should never have been unilaterally relied upon for any singular, unique reward, but they should have, and they should still, exist.

Find Nightwave grind to be a problem? How about missing alerts? You miss an alert and that reward is out of rotation for a literal two week period. That was a massive flaw. Pay to sleep was the entire definition of alerts, not to mention how far said rewards were spread out across the solar system for seemingly no rhyme or reason. Nightwave and Alerts both interrupt what a player would normally be doing anyways, so I wouldn't say they broke up the tedium as much as they cut down my grind sessions for whatever my current goal is.

In addition, the only reason to ever, ever play alerts was the unique rewards. Want a Kubrow egg? Alert. Argon? Alert. Kavat? Alert. Pretty much a band aid for either A. Stupid Kubrow egg mechanics. B. Argon drop rates. C. Stupidly low cat codes. Not to mention the actual unique rewards. Who in their right mind would run alerts for credits and endo? Or how about nano spores and control modules? Alerts were mainly filler trash punctuated by occasional useful things.

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3 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

Because the development team felt that the alert system was too antiquated and too flawed to properly bring back, and instead went forward with creating a new system designed around removing the flaws of the old one.

Or in short: Because the two systems would be redundant, and increase player workload.

first off if that's what they thought then their clearly only listen to their founders pass players that would be the dumbest reason to remove them and if it was antiquated then why[ have so many players spoken out and asked for them back

second how has if fixed the flaws of the old system is has divided the fan bases more then anything and many have felt like this new system makes the game not worth playing and anything added to the game causing this is a bad move

3rd clearly nightwave was not ready to be released it is very very flawed and this is something that was not needed in the game until it was good and right now it really isnt

4th tell me how it increases players work load you dont have to do alerts if you dont want to but nightwave you have to if you want these awards and honestly rewards like the umbra forma should not be in the game that was only added so you crybabies who aren't happy their will most likely be only one umbra frame in the game period can use umbra polarity on other frames which is lame as can be

all i have seen is bs excuses from the community i want a real answer form the devs the reason they wont answer is simple their is no good reason they just decided to take the game and cater it to those who are mater rank 20+ forget the rest

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Always nice to get insulted for providing an explanation.

Go read the "Farewell to Alerts" workshop if you want, it very clearly states the devs wanted to remove alerts rather than a reason for why they could not keep them around.

Funny how a lot of people come out of the wood work to defend alerts but yet so many were complaining about alerts and the very obvious flaws with them. Not just the founders either.

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on another note all weapons blueprints you can find in the alerts or the cred shop honestly should be able to be acquired in the market all of them are MR fodder so they really serve no purpose as a reward either way

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3 hours ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

umm look at my previous post it clearly said 50 creds.

Yes, I saw your post, give 50 creds on each rank. Taking into account the quote below (#1), I should just spend the wolf creds since they expire. This mention of 10 credits from me keeps cropping up. Why, one might ask? Well! Because like me, some people may not buy something(s) for a total increment of exactly 50 creds. I received 50 credits, same as everyone else, but I bought some stuff I didn't have...and guess what? Now...I have 10 creds. 10 creds is less than 15, which is the cheapest thing available as far as I see. What does this mean? It is possible for people to spend creds in such a manner that they don't end up with 0 creds. That was one point of my response to your suggestion and this line of responses. Sorry I wasn't clear.

If you didn't plan your purchases completely optimally because there were things you needed/wanted and you didn't spend an increment of 50 creds...they're wasted at reset. I was just pointing out your suggestion (that kind of implied it would fix all issues with nightwave and the cred rewards) was still a little flawed. I mean, sure I might be able to buy more stuff with your suggestion if they don't adjust the offering costs for inflation. But at the end, I may still end up with creds that get wasted. And if they DO adjust the offering costs for inflation and we might just be back in the same boat. I guess if they made all offerings increments of 10, and had at least 1 10 cred offering, that would remove the problem of having extra credits.

 

6 hours ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

1.)why not just spend the wolf cred before it ends since all the rewards will be continueto be the same items like baro -_- or change it to nightwave cred that can be spent anytime

2.) by newbie I say easy missions that they or anyone can complete.

3.) or just ADD 2 random elite challenges

Also, you didn't tell me how to convert wolf creds into unexpiring nightwave creds. I really would like to do so, so my straggling 10 extra creds don't expire if I don't manage to spend them before the reset.
 

Also, in regards to #1, they really should offer more interesting and possibly new stuff in there, not just as a rank reward. 🙂

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I think a lot of people would be happy if, going forward, 50 Nightwave credits were given for every rank up. Would solve the "potential gains" disparity between the two systems. 30 * 5 Nitain = 1,500 Nitain.

Yeah, I think the system would be a lot better that way.

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2 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

Always nice to get insulted for providing an explanation.

Welcome to the club.

57 minutes ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

50 Nightwave credits were given for every rank up

That is just too much, considering the current prices.

58 minutes ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

30 * 5 Nitain = 1,500 Nitain.

You need 180 to build/research everything.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Morelle said:

That is just too much, considering the current prices.

You need 180 to build/research everything.

It would certainly appease the people who consider literally every reward that is not wolf creds to be pointless filler. It would also allow someone who does not have a single one of the rewards to actually, reasonably be able to acquire all the helmets, auras, and skins without having to skimp out on other things. But I believe that we need more credits over all for the amount invested. Despite the ability to prestige, most of the players who should benefit from the new system will be unable to acquire as much as they could with the old system. Not that the old system was better, it was pretty bad. The new system needs tweaks, and cred amount is one I believe.

Side note: I also believe that the Umbral Forma was a mistake. But DE admits they've let power creep go on and disregard the consequences and have re-enabled Exalted weapons and arcanes interacting.

Edited by Grey_Star_Rival_Defender

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2 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

The new system needs tweaks, and cred amount is one I believe.

Sure thing, just not 50 creds for each rank. 10 should be enough. The reward pool is finite, after all, and let's be honest - potatoes are not that expensive in terms of platinum.

And platinum is rather easy to farm through in-game means, if you don't want to spend a single cent.

2 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

Side note: I also believe that the Umbral Forma was a mistake.

Even considering the fact that you can't obtain more than 1 in every 10 weeks? 

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Up front, for those that might say I'm not being constructive, I've made a couple posts on ways Nightwave could be fixed (mind you, I do consider it's current state to be broken), and made a topic or two on the same subject. However, we've seen no rush by DE to fix the valid issues many, including myself, have raised with it.

That said, as a Founder, I love Warframe. I've put almost a couple thousand dollars into this game at this point (I'm insane I know), but I did it because I love the game and everything about it. The Dev team has def made some questionable decisions over the years but this... I've never been pissed off about something added to the game before.

Nightwave managed it though.

If it was truly a re-work of the Alert system to remove the random 'hurry up and wait' system of the old alerts I'd love it and support it, but it's not, it's a time sink meant to make us log in and play for at least a couple hours a day (or much longer a few days a week), to keep the player count up; making us sacrifice unique rewards if we don't (mind you it's still a hurry up and wait system, even worse it's a 'fall behind and you'll never catch up' system now). If you can offer some form of tangible proof otherwise I'll shut my mouth, but everything I've seen since it started points me to that conclusion.

Burnout is real, and I've had had to take breaks a couple times in the past, but it was always due to a lack of new, interesting content, not the introduction of something new that I just can't stomach.

I'm stepping away from this game for a while. I love Warframe, I will always love this game I fell into years back and literally got me though a time I wanted to just be dead by letting me be something... else. I think... I'll see if I keep putting money into supporting Warframe in the future... but right now... with the jank that is the 'new melee system' and the dumpster fire that Nightwave has turned out to be, I just can't can't support it right now.

Alerts used to be a bonus that could draw me into the game naturally if they had something I wanted, Nightwave has taken that and flipped it on it's head. Warframe now demands my time at the threat of locking me out of those nifty series exclusives. It was a gentle nudge to come back in and get something I might want, but now it's a chore list and what feels like a knife at my back if I don't finish it...

 

IF they ramped it up in a way that allowed you to to complete the whole thing in the last week if that's when you jumped into it I'd be all for it, the grueling start would still be annoying as hell, but at least then I'd know that taking a vacation, or, god forbid, getting really sick wouldn't lock me out of rewards...

...Anyway, I'll stop ranting. Please DE, make this right, and please stop pissing you're most devoted fans off.     ._.

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I would really have preferred chasing fugitives or the wolf to earn standing instead of the boring "achievements", there was such "grind" in Ubisoft The Division 1, people were never happy to do them, and the overall game had less content than Warframe. I'm a "new player" with 130 days / 600 hours, I still have Eidolon to chase, boring toroids to farm, broken war pieces to get, relics to open, Global events to do, I'll need Nitain and potatoes and I'll way less time to play than the binge playing of these first months.

They could have kept the old "alert", each missions having a guaranteed fugitive spawn, rewarding some standing (150 is OK for a 3min mission, more would have been required for longer ones). The Wolf could have been a guaranteed spawn in a random hidden map, chasing convicts could have given intels to locate him, and he could have had a timed respawned.

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Some of the early quests sucked, admittedly. Look at this week though. Thats REALLY doable stuff... If the workload keeps on the level of this week, how can you really complain?

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Of course I won't mind getting extra rewards for normal play

Keep nightwaves 5k standing as "open [small amount] of relic", "kill  [few] Eidolons", "kill [few] profit taker", "finish [1 or 2] sorties", and "finish [few] arbitrations", remove the "with friends" requirements and avoid anything that can't be done in one or two days, and add "20 waves defense", "20 min survival" or "4 excavations" as 3k

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3 hours ago, Tarak said:

Up front, for those that might say I'm not being constructive, I've made a couple posts on ways Nightwave could be fixed (mind you, I do consider it's current state to be broken), and made a topic or two on the same subject. However, we've seen no rush by DE to fix the valid issues many, including myself, have raised with it.

That said, as a Founder, I love Warframe. I've put almost a couple thousand dollars into this game at this point (I'm insane I know), but I did it because I love the game and everything about it. The Dev team has def made some questionable decisions over the years but this... I've never been pissed off about something added to the game before.

Nightwave managed it though.

If it was truly a re-work of the Alert system to remove the random 'hurry up and wait' system of the old alerts I'd love it and support it, but it's not, it's a time sink meant to make us log in and play for at least a couple hours a day (or much longer a few days a week), to keep the player count up; making us sacrifice unique rewards if we don't (mind you it's still a hurry up and wait system, even worse it's a 'fall behind and you'll never catch up' system now). If you can offer some form of tangible proof otherwise I'll shut my mouth, but everything I've seen since it started points me to that conclusion.

Burnout is real, and I've had had to take breaks a couple times in the past, but it was always due to a lack of new, interesting content, not the introduction of something new that I just can't stomach.

I'm stepping away from this game for a while. I love Warframe, I will always love this game I fell into years back and literally got me though a time I wanted to just be dead by letting me be something... else. I think... I'll see if I keep putting money into supporting Warframe in the future... but right now... with the jank that is the 'new melee system' and the dumpster fire that Nightwave has turned out to be, I just can't can't support it right now.

Alerts used to be a bonus that could draw me into the game naturally if they had something I wanted, Nightwave has taken that and flipped it on it's head. Warframe now demands my time at the threat of locking me out of those nifty series exclusives. It was a gentle nudge to come back in and get something I might want, but now it's a chore list and what feels like a knife at my back if I don't finish it...

 

IF they ramped it up in a way that allowed you to to complete the whole thing in the last week if that's when you jumped into it I'd be all for it, the grueling start would still be annoying as hell, but at least then I'd know that taking a vacation, or, god forbid, getting really sick wouldn't lock me out of rewards...

...Anyway, I'll stop ranting. Please DE, make this right, and please stop pissing you're most devoted fans off.     ._.

Chin up mate. I agree with everything you say. Now that DE are successful I feel that we have been left behind and our opinions don't matter. It's a great pity but we have to accept this.

Take care.

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I'm for challenges, always a nice thing to make bonus gear.

Do like to try and hunt the main target down more

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On 2019-03-18 at 10:49 AM, random__noob said:

Thats REALLY doable stuff

4 hours. Including a snack break.

On 2019-03-18 at 8:15 AM, Tarak said:

it's a time sink meant to make us log in and play for at least a couple hours a day

Every game is a time sink. The question is - if you are enjoying the process.

Unique rewards? They will return in one form or another. And if they will not - oh well.

Just make it clear for yourself: do you like to play the game, or do you want all the rewards?

P.S. Just out of curiosity: what kind of stuff could you possibly need from the alerts as a founder with over 2000$ spent?

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15 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

Find Nightwave grind to be a problem? How about missing alerts? You miss an alert and that reward is out of rotation for a literal two week period. That was a massive flaw. Pay to sleep was the entire definition of alerts, not to mention how far said rewards were spread out across the solar system for seemingly no rhyme or reason. Nightwave and Alerts both interrupt what a player would normally be doing anyways, so I wouldn't say they broke up the tedium as much as they cut down my grind sessions for whatever my current goal is.

In addition, the only reason to ever, ever play alerts was the unique rewards. Want a Kubrow egg? Alert. Argon? Alert. Kavat? Alert. Pretty much a band aid for either A. Stupid Kubrow egg mechanics. B. Argon drop rates. C. Stupidly low cat codes. Not to mention the actual unique rewards. Who in their right mind would run alerts for credits and endo? Or how about nano spores and control modules? Alerts were mainly filler trash punctuated by occasional useful things.

That's exactly my point, though.  The pay-to-sleep aspects of the Alert system would have been severely reduced by the induction of Nightwave, because there are now alternative methods to get all of their rewards.  If you need Argon, you go to the Void and do a loot run.  If you need a Kubrow Egg, it's the same thing, but on Earth.  And now if you need Nitain Extract, you can do some Nightwave to get them.  There's no longer anything that you absolutely MUST wait on a particular alert for.  Which would make them a nice bonus if one comes up at the right time, as opposed to something you feel like you absolutely cannot miss no matter what.  If that means that you specifically won't play them, so be it.  That view is not held by all players.  I myself find "grind sessions" tedious and dull, so cutting down on those and breaking the tedium in the game are effectively one and the same thing.  I kid find some Alerts worthwhile to me.

I would also mention that Nighwave does not provide an easier solution to...any of your examples.  Argon Crystals are now only available through the Void.  Kubrow Eggs, only from Kubrow dens on Earth, and Kavats only through scanning on the Derelict.  I understand that Kavat codes are tedious and obnoxious this way, so I'll admit that it's one thing you might be tempted to wait out an Alert for.  You might have a point against me there.  Perhaps Kavat Codes (and Kubrow Eggs, since I'd rather see the two paired in it for symmetry) could be added to Nightwave's Cred shop rotation to appease you and your peers.  I'd be fine with that. 

The others really only took me up to three looting runs on their respective tilesets to get what I needed, which I find wholly acceptable, as I enjoy a slow, meandering loot run from time to time (in solo, naturally).  You seem not to, and I'm sure you're not alone.  But you still had options besides waiting for the right alert to show up, and if it did show up for you, great.  You didn't have to do as much of the thing you didn't like.  Which made Alerts potentially valuable to you.  But I would argue that waiting around for the Alert that would give it to you was not necessary.

As to your last questions, someone who is bored might feel like running a quick mission just for kicks, and the list of Alerts makes a nice little set of suggestions as to what to do, without addressing the whole of the solar map to find one mission they feel like doing.  Which is invaluable when you don't have a specific goal to run straight for.  I won't say that credit, etc. Alerts were good.  "Filler trash" is probably a good term for them, but I don't think that it invalidates the whole system.  At worst, it necessitates adjustment to the involved probabilities.

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21 hours ago, (NSW)TheFrontz said:

still waiting on the valid reason behind alerts being removed when its been proven they both can coexist

because the reaosn alerts were removed, was because not everyone could get on when the alerts were up, and alot of people could only get 1 nitain a day at most, if u do only half the standing ur still getting more nitain then u would have if u only got 1 a day, once u have enough nitain to build eveyrthing, u cna just grab literly anything els u would have missed lol

i was playing with a mr 20 a while back that didnt even know what steel charge was, thats how bad alerts were for people that didnt have an alert tracker

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

because the reaosn alerts were removed, was because not everyone could get on when the alerts were up, and alot of people could only get 1 nitain a day at most, if u do only half the standing ur still getting more nitain then u would have if u only got 1 a day, once u have enough nitain to build eveyrthing, u cna just grab literly anything els u would have missed lol

i was playing with a mr 20 a while back that didnt even know what steel charge was, thats how bad alerts were for people that didnt have an alert tracker

I didnt have a tracker and I was enjoying the alerts, really did break up the grind after long survival bouts. Also got alot more than 1NE a day not to mention all the auras. Now its put behind a crazy grind compared to what it once was. The random part made it all the more worthwhile when something I didn't have finally popped up as well always keeping my attention.

Not everyone is going to be able to complete Nightwave so the same problem still exists with the new system as well. If we had both I honestly think this update would of been great.

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1 minute ago, TheSkunkyMonk said:

I didnt have a tracker and I was enjoying the alerts, really did break up the grind after long survival bouts. Also got alot more than 1NE a day not to mention all the auras. Now its put behind a crazy grind compared to what it once was. The random part made it all the more worthwhile when something I didn't have finally popped up as well always keeping my attention.

Not everyone is going to be able to complete Nightwave so the same problem still exists with the new system as well. If we had both I honestly think this update would of been great.

if two hours a week is a crazy grind, then im sorry 

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1 hour ago, xTerrain said:

That's exactly my point, though.  The pay-to-sleep aspects of the Alert system would have been severely reduced by the induction of Nightwave, because there are now alternative methods to get all of their rewards.  If you need Argon, you go to the Void and do a loot run.  If you need a Kubrow Egg, it's the same thing, but on Earth.  And now if you need Nitain Extract, you can do some Nightwave to get them.  There's no longer anything that you absolutely MUST wait on a particular alert for.  Which would make them a nice bonus if one comes up at the right time, as opposed to something you feel like you absolutely cannot miss no matter what.  If that means that you specifically won't play them, so be it.  That view is not held by all players.  I myself find "grind sessions" tedious and dull, so cutting down on those and breaking the tedium in the game are effectively one and the same thing.  I kid find some Alerts worthwhile to me.

I would also mention that Nighwave does not provide an easier solution to...any of your examples.  Argon Crystals are now only available through the Void.  Kubrow Eggs, only from Kubrow dens on Earth, and Kavats only through scanning on the Derelict.  I understand that Kavat codes are tedious and obnoxious this way, so I'll admit that it's one thing you might be tempted to wait out an Alert for.  You might have a point against me there.  Perhaps Kavat Codes (and Kubrow Eggs, since I'd rather see the two paired in it for symmetry) could be added to Nightwave's Cred shop rotation to appease you and your peers.  I'd be fine with that. 

The others really only took me up to three looting runs on their respective tilesets to get what I needed, which I find wholly acceptable, as I enjoy a slow, meandering loot run from time to time (in solo, naturally).  You seem not to, and I'm sure you're not alone.  But you still had options besides waiting for the right alert to show up, and if it did show up for you, great.  You didn't have to do as much of the thing you didn't like.  Which made Alerts potentially valuable to you.  But I would argue that waiting around for the Alert that would give it to you was not necessary.

As to your last questions, someone who is bored might feel like running a quick mission just for kicks, and the list of Alerts makes a nice little set of suggestions as to what to do, without addressing the whole of the solar map to find one mission they feel like doing.  Which is invaluable when you don't have a specific goal to run straight for.  I won't say that credit, etc. Alerts were good.  "Filler trash" is probably a good term for them, but I don't think that it invalidates the whole system.  At worst, it necessitates adjustment to the involved probabilities.

They removed Kubrow egg limits, invalidating Kubrow egg alerts (as they were valued for bypassing the limit), and increased Kat Code spawn chances (invaldiating Kat Code alerts) shortly before Nightwave. Those were good additions to the game in preperation for the removal of alerts, since the alerts felt like the reason the limits were in place to begin with. That’s why part of the alert system felt like a band aid for companions.

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