Radial Javelin Rework/Radial Slash Concept

[ganjou234]

How 'bout rename and make it "Radial Slash"

• 5m base range - Range is affected by Ability Range Mods on Excalibur and Melee Range Mods equipped on Exalted Blade.
• Radial Slash damage is 100% of the total current Physical Damage of Exalted Blade (ie after base and physical damage modifiers like Pressure Point and Buzz Kill/Collision Force/Auger Strike are applied) converted into Slash damage. (0% Impact, 0% Puncture, 100% Slash)
• If Radial Slash is successfully cast within a window of 1 second after the previous cast its energy cost will be reduced by 50%. Any successful cast thereafter reduce its energy cost by 75%.
• Damage can be increased through stealth multipliers and the Melee Combo Counter.
• "Radial Cleave": Non-LOS ability, enemies behind obstacles can be hit.
• Enemies within range are slashed once.
• Enemies within range are inflicted with an impact proc.
• "Radial Combo": Each enemy hit increases the Melee Combo Counter by 1.
  • "Exalted Combo": Radial Slash hits will add to Exalted Blade's Melee Combo Counter.
• "Radial Block": Excalibur blocks attacks in any direction (i.e. an omnidirectional block) while in the animation of casting Radial Slash, block % uses Exalted Blade's block resistance (60%). Animation lasts for 1s.
  • Attacks blocked during the window will increase the Melee Combo Counter by 1.
• Becomes Radial Burst when Exalted Blade is channeling. Launches energy waves in every direction if used when Exalted Blade is on.
  • Radial Burst will consume 50% of total current energy. Consumption is unaffected by power efficiency.
  • Radial Burst cannot be cast when below 50% Maximum Energy, it will revert to Radial Slash without the energy waves.
• 1 handed ability, can be used on the move and while firing, becomes a two handed action when used as Radial Burst.

Proceed to play Warframe with "Rules of Nature" playing in the background....

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by ganjou234
Changed title..

[Birdframe_Prime]

Eh, not bad. I think some of the limitations are unnecessary, and some of the balance functions are a little needlessly complex.

Simplify, and I can see a lot more people supporting it.

For example, no ability needs to only be 5m, even Zephyr's abilities have a base of 7m. And with a single-instance damage cast, you don't need to worry too much about the range abuse (it costs 75 energy here, it's not cheap). If you're worried about too much spam, then up the power a little and remove the recast reduced cost bonus.

How about this for an adjustment; 8m base range, affected by Ability Range mods. Base damage matches exactly 50% base Exalted Blade damage and is affected by all mods that affect Exalted Blade, including Ability Strength, Duration and Efficiency. Is affected by melee combo multiplier and receives the bonus for Melee Stealth multipliers. While Exalted Blade is active, ability is cast using Exalted Blade for the higher base damage.

Additional function; Duration affects Radial Block, giving Excal reduced damage for the base 1 second plus additional time after the cast (up to about 2.06 seconds, using Max Duration). Modding for EB efficiency, therefore (which is primarily Duration), would benefit you with a little extra window for reactions.

And, because Melee 3.0 is converting the way punch-through works (giving it to the Heavy Attacks) you could actually make is count as a Heavy Attack to inherit the punch through given by the mods that affect those, meaning you can leave it as a line-of-sight ability, but it has the option to simply not be with the right modding.

But you see what I mean? You don't need to limit it so heavily with the energy costs while using Exalted Blade (especially as I think that could be a bad idea to have an ability entirely not castable if you have less than 210 energy... which would normally be plenty for casting anything) as long as you don't include the consecutive casts make it more efficient.

And you definitely don't need the range to be that short, even with max range you wouldn't match the range of a Dive Bomb, and that would be downright saddening ^^

Simplify for success ^^

[LostSeeker0]

27 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Eh, not bad. I think some of the limitations are unnecessary, and some of the balance functions are a little needlessly complex.

Simplify, and I can see a lot more people supporting it.

For example, no ability needs to only be 5m, even Zephyr's abilities have a base of 7m. And with a single-instance damage cast, you don't need to worry too much about the range abuse (it costs 75 energy here, it's not cheap). If you're worried about too much spam, then up the power a little and remove the recast reduced cost bonus.

How about this for an adjustment; 8m base range, affected by Ability Range mods. Base damage matches exactly 50% base Exalted Blade damage and is affected by all mods that affect Exalted Blade, including Ability Strength, Duration and Efficiency. Is affected by melee combo multiplier and receives the bonus for Melee Stealth multipliers. While Exalted Blade is active, ability is cast using Exalted Blade for the higher base damage.

Additional function; Duration affects Radial Block, giving Excal reduced damage for the base 1 second plus additional time after the cast (up to about 2.06 seconds, using Max Duration). Modding for EB efficiency, therefore (which is primarily Duration), would benefit you with a little extra window for reactions.

And, because Melee 3.0 is converting the way punch-through works (giving it to the Heavy Attacks) you could actually make is count as a Heavy Attack to inherit the punch through given by the mods that affect those, meaning you can leave it as a line-of-sight ability, but it has the option to simply not be with the right modding.

But you see what I mean? You don't need to limit it so heavily with the energy costs while using Exalted Blade (especially as I think that could be a bad idea to have an ability entirely not castable if you have less than 210 energy... which would normally be plenty for casting anything) as long as you don't include the consecutive casts make it more efficient.

And you definitely don't need the range to be that short, even with max range you wouldn't match the range of a Dive Bomb, and that would be downright saddening ^^

Simplify for success ^^

Aye, all these points I cannot disagree with.

One thing to note is that Slash Dash gains 250 base damage at max rank, on top of all the mods on your melee weapon affecting it, however this base damage is actually lower than the base damage of Exalted Blade itself, which doesn't make any sense... If we were to try applying that same thing to Radial Slash, it could cause this ability to not be worth it, unless we measure all their base damages as multiplied forms of Exalted Blade damage, such as (Exalted Blade Base damage x 150% = Slash Dash damage).

I had to actually do a review on the Warframe wiki over this, and this was a tad bit of a shocker to come across... If we're going to be proposing a new ability like this, I would push for some more beneficial calculations for use while Exalted Blade is out to make this ability effective even when you're attacking a single target to nuke very strong mobs point-blank.

[1d1ot-M4chine]

what if while eb is active, range is increased by say 30% and dmg goes up by 160% with incoming damage from enemies building up the burst of projectiles with say 10% charge to the burst per hit so radial slash would be active for a few seconds, explode dealing a huge amount of dps without using a ton of energy so it would be ideal for nuking high level elite enemies.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, LostSeeker0 said:

I would push for some more beneficial calculations for use while Exalted Blade is out

I normally would, but remember what OP is suggesting for the EB version; it produces the EB waves as well, lots of them, instantly.

One of the things that Excal has in spades is EB damage. Giving him a cast that can multiply that damage? Not something to do so easily. But EB making the ability better is something that Warframe is built around, because it's more energy investment and a Drain on top.

I could see it doing something else, though... instead of the ability getting stronger, or having more range, why not incorporate the original idea of reduced cost? Not recasting to reduce costs, but just a flat reduction for the cast to compensate for the fact that there's a Drain going already?

How about something else, as a bonus to the ability, like enemies killed specifically with the combined EB/RS cast grant life steal or a chance to drop energy orbs. Utility functions, like it extends the duration of the damage reduction, or increases it because EB's auto-block has 60% already, but you can stack EB's auto-block with the Radial Block for 84% reduction from the front and still have the 60% radially.

There's combos there...

[LostSeeker0]

26 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I normally would, but remember what OP is suggesting for the EB version; it produces the EB waves as well, lots of them, instantly.

One of the things that Excal has in spades is EB damage. Giving him a cast that can multiply that damage? Not something to do so easily. But EB making the ability better is something that Warframe is built around, because it's more energy investment and a Drain on top.

I could see it doing something else, though... instead of the ability getting stronger, or having more range, why not incorporate the original idea of reduced cost? Not recasting to reduce costs, but just a flat reduction for the cast to compensate for the fact that there's a Drain going already?

How about something else, as a bonus to the ability, like enemies killed specifically with the combined EB/RS cast grant life steal or a chance to drop energy orbs. Utility functions, like it extends the duration of the damage reduction, or increases it because EB's auto-block has 60% already, but you can stack EB's auto-block with the Radial Block for 84% reduction from the front and still have the 60% radially.

There's combos there...

I suppose some sort of combo synergy could be incorporated, though didn't you say to simplify for success before? I would advocate for the concept of keeping it simple for sure, but turn this ability into one that flat-out obliterates things in exchange for a large energy drain that might not be easily recovered from, so we can possibly ignore the energy problems for now. As it is, your suggestion to make enemies killed by this ability to drop energy orbs will fall flat if the ability itself lacks killing potential, so we need to focus on that primarily. And if Killing potential is to be focused on in regards to an ability that can potentially eviscerate a Sortie Nox to pieces at point-blank while also providing temporary protection from all sides, then providing any sort of energy discount or reduction would make this ability too strong.

Another thing to take into account is Excalibur is meant as a Warframe for beginners. Giving them an overly complex third ability could vex newbies in how to use it effectively...

As for the mechanics, the actual contact with the blade of Radial Slash could actually hit multiple times, allowing the ability to be used effectively against one or several very high threat tanky mobs, while the thrown out Exalted Blade waves could also potentially hit at point blank range too, amounting to colossal amounts of damage in an enemy's face, while still being able to serve as an anti-zerg ability when a horde of enemies are keeping their distance, and have all decided to fire at you from all sides.

An ability with this much power should definitely be costly in terms of power but not to the point that the cost is too great to even warrant using, as this would be Excalibur's emergency "Back against the wall" ability, used when you end up in a situation that could potentially end up very badly for the Excalibur in question. Some may even build around this, so the majority of this ability's damage should be a combination of both direct contact with the Exalted Blade, and the energy waves being sent out that would happen at point-blank, to not make the ranged capabilities of this ability too powerful.

Edited February 28, 2019 by LostSeeker0
Clarification

[ganjou234]

6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

For example, no ability needs to only be 5m, even Zephyr's abilities have a base of 7m. And with a single-instance damage cast, you don't need to worry too much about the range abuse (it costs 75 energy here, it's not cheap). If you're worried about too much spam, then up the power a little and remove the recast reduced cost bonus.

I've made it be affected by both Ability Range and Melee Reach Mods (on exalted blade). To show some calculations lets assume the following mods are installed (on exalted blade and Excalibur).

• Stretch
• Primed Reach
  • (5m + (5m x 0.45)) + ((5m + (5m x 0.45)) x 1.65) = 19.2m range
• Umbral Vitality + Umbral Intensify(R14) + Umbral Fiber = +54% Power Strength
• Sacrificial Pressure(R13) + Buzz Kill = +100% Melee Damage + 120% Slash
  • Exalted Blade Physical Damage Stats: 115.5 Impact, 1186.0 Slash, 115.5 Puncture
  • Radial Slash Damage = 0 Impact, (115.5 + 1186.0 + 115.5) Slash, 0 Puncture = 1417 Total Damage (100% Slash)
    • Stealth Damage: 1417 x (1 + 7 (700%)) = 11336 Total Damage
    • (2x) Melee Combo Counter + Stealth Damage: (1417 x 2) x (1 + 7 (700%)) = 22672 Total Damage

That's pretty long considering that the ability is one-handed, gets reduced cost for consecutive use, ignores LOS, is omnidirectional, and is affected by both Stealth Multipliers and the Melee Combo Counter. I think it's pretty balanced..

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Additional function; Duration affects Radial Block, giving Excal reduced damage for the base 1 second plus additional time after the cast (up to about 2.06 seconds, using Max Duration). Modding for EB efficiency, therefore (which is primarily Duration), would benefit you with a little extra window for reactions. 

I intentionally made it not scale with duration to incentivize the use of the increased efficiency on consecutive casts.

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But you see what I mean? You don't need to limit it so heavily with the energy costs while using Exalted Blade (especially as I think that could be a bad idea to have an ability entirely not castable if you have less than 210 energy... which would normally be plenty for casting anything) as long as you don't include the consecutive casts make it more efficient.

Exalted Burst is only not castable below (225 x 0.5) 112.5 energy at base energy and is unaffected by consecutive cast efficiency. It's pretty easy to cast Exalted Burst repeatedly if you go over 50% max energy.

• Primed Flow(R12) = (563 x 0.5) = 281.5
  • Exalted Blade Toggle Cost = 25
  • 563 - 25 = 538
  • 538 x 0.5 = 269 Exalted Burst cast cost
  • Remaining Energy = 269
  • Remaining Energy + 50 energy Rage mod Activation 269 + 50 = 319 <- Exalted Burst can be casted again....

[1d1ot-M4chine]

3 hours ago, LostSeeker0 said:

I suppose some sort of combo synergy could be incorporated, though didn't you say to simplify for success before? I would advocate for the concept of keeping it simple for sure, but turn this ability into one that flat-out obliterates things in exchange for a large energy drain that might not be easily recovered from, so we can possibly ignore the energy problems for now. As it is, your suggestion to make enemies killed by this ability to drop energy orbs will fall flat if the ability itself lacks killing potential, so we need to focus on that primarily. And if Killing potential is to be focused on in regards to an ability that can potentially eviscerate a Sortie Nox to pieces at point-blank while also providing temporary protection from all sides, then providing any sort of energy discount or reduction would make this ability too strong.

Another thing to take into account is Excalibur is meant as a Warframe for beginners. Giving them an overly complex third ability could vex newbies in how to use it effectively...

As for the mechanics, the actual contact with the blade of Radial Slash could actually hit multiple times, allowing the ability to be used effectively against one or several very high threat tanky mobs, while the thrown out Exalted Blade waves could also potentially hit at point blank range too, amounting to colossal amounts of damage in an enemy's face, while still being able to serve as an anti-zerg ability when a horde of enemies are keeping their distance, and have all decided to fire at you from all sides.

An ability with this much power should definitely be costly in terms of power but not to the point that the cost is too great to even warrant using, as this would be Excalibur's emergency "Back against the wall" ability, used when you end up in a situation that could potentially end up very badly for the Excalibur in question. Some may even build around this, so the majority of this ability's damage should be a combination of both direct contact with the Exalted Blade, and the energy waves being sent out that would happen at point-blank, to not make the ranged capabilities of this ability too powerful.

This sounds awesome, I actually feel like this would give excal a much better 3rd and a good aoe backup if he gets overwhelmed, so what if in order to keep it from getting spammed the damage ties directly too the amount of enemies nearby, so the dogs output would always be able to deal with the majority of the mob and there would be no point to use I t more than 2 or 3 times since it's effectiveness is tied to nearby enemies hp and the nearby amount .

Edit: also having it be a duration based ability would definitely help it fit with his kit due to eb and blind/howl already being duration based

Edited March 1, 2019 by fallenkell

[Birdframe_Prime]

15 hours ago, LostSeeker0 said:

didn't you say to simplify for success before?

Yes, I did, but the complications I was referring to were things like having it specifically cost more in Exalted Blade (with needless calculations about what the minimum limit of Energy you need to have in order to cast) and the oddly specific damage calculations.

A complication that isn't needed is to convert all the damage into Slash, because having balanced IPS just like Exalted Blade, means that it can damage each Faction equally, and that any Bleed status you inflict from it is still just as powerful because it takes the value from the base IPS damage, not from the base Slash. (It also balances out the Status a little, because an ability having a 33.3% chance to proc Slash with that much damage is easily powerful enough, just look at Garuda and her ability that can go up to 100% chance... that's a lot of power.)

If you simplify it to 'I have X energy, I can cast', and 'if I cast I get effect 1; damage, effect 2; some damage reduction and, if I have EB active, effect 3; a bonus combination effect.' then that is still simple.

Simple doesn't mean minimalist ^^ There can be multiple functions, just keep them clear-cut.

15 hours ago, LostSeeker0 said:

As it is, your suggestion to make enemies killed by this ability to drop energy orbs will fall flat if the ability itself lacks killing potential

Except from the OP's point, that's not the problem ^^ Excal does damage well, especially if it comes with melee combo counter boosting or (more likely) the Melee 3.0 Heavy Attack boosting. Excal is a Drain frame, having the ability to maintain that without having to try tanking with Rage or Hunter Adrenaline would be very helpful overall.

But speaking of OP...

17 hours ago, ganjou234 said:

That's pretty long considering that the ability is one-handed, gets reduced cost for consecutive use, ignores LOS, is omnidirectional, and is affected by both Stealth Multipliers and the Melee Combo Counter. I think it's pretty balanced..

This is where I would differ with you, my friend. It's an ability, so the Range would almost certainly only scale off the Ability Range mods, especially considering that Primed Reach isn't a mod that provides any benefit on Exalted Blade (it only affects the actual blade itself, which has the same melee range as any other single-handed sword and Primed Reach only makes that... what? about 4-5m?). In which case your calculations for Max Range would be only a high of 280% or 14m radius of you include Overextended.

But on my side, buffing the base range to 8m would give you a max range of 22.4m and a range of 15.2m without Overextended. That's not quite your 19m range, but it's close, and if you upped it to 10m base, not only would this work better for players starting the game with Excal (because it gives them a little more base range to play with) but it would mean that with just Stretch and Augur Reach you would get to 17.5m which is around the same size as Nova's AMD, which we all know is an effective damage dealer. (If you add in Cunning Drift you get 19m, which is a nice comparison to your original calculations).

Again, for balance purposes, this kind of damage cast would only be affected by one type of modding, either Melee Range or Ability Range. And I can see it being far stronger if you use Ability Range and increase the base distance to match, because there is only one mod that affects Melee Range that Excal could use, and it doesn't help his other abilities.

17 hours ago, ganjou234 said:

I intentionally made it not scale with duration to incentivize the use of the increased efficiency on consecutive casts.

And again, this is a point where we'll differ. I suggested my changes because the increased Efficiency on consecutive casts is making you over-compensate on other aspects.

If there is no increased Efficiency, then you don't need the 'no casting if you don't have X% energy during Exalted Blade' bit. It's inhibitive and will only mean that in many situations you will not have your emergency area-clear cast.

With EB active, you are on a Drain, preventing you from regaining energy through normal means. You will not have time to stop EB, pop an energy plate, go back into EB and then cast your new 3 if you actually need it.

Energy in Warframe is like Ammo, not like mana or a cooldown, if you have enough ammo for your weapons you can fire, likewise if you have enough energy for your Abilities, you can cast them. It's unwise, in the extreme, to put in an ability function that penalises a player for using mods like Primed Flow. Or, from another perspective, makes putting on a mod that's beneficial to the frame cause you to need more energy than any other frame's 4th ability in order to cast your new 3.

With the way this works, both myself and LostSeeker feel that it would be actively preventative to using the ability in a lot of situations.

Yes, increased Efficiency on the base cast is awesome, but not if it comes at the penalty of the ability during EB costing this much:

17 hours ago, ganjou234 said:

• 538 x 0.5 = 269 Exalted Burst cast cost

This ability, even with as much power as you're giving it, will never be worth 269 energy, no way. No ability is. And making it impossible to cast if you're at less than 112 energy during EB is incredibly limiting.

Exalted Blade has a Drain, it's already possible for that fact alone to be the balance for adding extra power to Radial Slash, it's fine to use that instead of obtuse calculations.

Relax and let your ability be powerful without trying to put penalties like this on it ^^

 

[LostSeeker0]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yes, I did, but the complications I was referring to were things like having it specifically cost more in Exalted Blade (with needless calculations about what the minimum limit of Energy you need to have in order to cast) and the oddly specific damage calculations.

A complication that isn't needed is to convert all the damage into Slash, because having balanced IPS just like Exalted Blade, means that it can damage each Faction equally, and that any Bleed status you inflict from it is still just as powerful because it takes the value from the base IPS damage, not from the base Slash. (It also balances out the Status a little, because an ability having a 33.3% chance to proc Slash with that much damage is easily powerful enough, just look at Garuda and her ability that can go up to 100% chance... that's a lot of power.)

If you simplify it to 'I have X energy, I can cast', and 'if I cast I get effect 1; damage, effect 2; some damage reduction and, if I have EB active, effect 3; a bonus combination effect.' then that is still simple.

Simple doesn't mean minimalist ^^ There can be multiple functions, just keep them clear-cut.

My apologies! I do definitely understand where you'e coming from. And I absolutely agree on letting the damage be directly based on your Exalted Blade's modded damage, multiplied slightly by the ability itself. The ability to tailor your damage to Corrosive for Grineer and such would definitely be extremely useful, and the Exalted Blade is the perfect system to accomplish this with.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This is where I would differ with you, my friend. It's an ability, so the Range would almost certainly only scale off the Ability Range mods, especially considering that Primed Reach isn't a mod that provides any benefit on Exalted Blade (it only affects the actual blade itself, which has the same melee range as any other single-handed sword and Primed Reach only makes that... what? about 4-5m?). In which case your calculations for Max Range would be only a high of 280% or 14m radius of you include Overextended.

But on my side, buffing the base range to 8m would give you a max range of 22.4m and a range of 15.2m without Overextended. That's not quite your 19m range, but it's close, and if you upped it to 10m base, not only would this work better for players starting the game with Excal (because it gives them a little more base range to play with) but it would mean that with just Stretch and Augur Reach you would get to 17.5m which is around the same size as Nova's AMD, which we all know is an effective damage dealer. (If you add in Cunning Drift you get 19m, which is a nice comparison to your original calculations).

Again, for balance purposes, this kind of damage cast would only be affected by one type of modding, either Melee Range or Ability Range. And I can see it being far stronger if you use Ability Range and increase the base distance to match, because there is only one mod that affects Melee Range that Excal could use, and it doesn't help his other abilities.

Agreed, don't break what already works. The direct contact with the Exalted Blade when this ability is going on could be modified by the melee range of how the Exalted Blade is modded for, but that should be it. The rest should factor entirely off of ability range.

 

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And again, this is a point where we'll differ. I suggested my changes because the increased Efficiency on consecutive casts is making you over-compensate on other aspects.

If there is no increased Efficiency, then you don't need the 'no casting if you don't have X% energy during Exalted Blade' bit. It's inhibitive and will only mean that in many situations you will not have your emergency area-clear cast.

With EB active, you are on a Drain, preventing you from regaining energy through normal means. You will not have time to stop EB, pop an energy plate, go back into EB and then cast your new 3 if you actually need it.

Energy in Warframe is like Ammo, not like mana or a cooldown, if you have enough ammo for your weapons you can fire, likewise if you have enough energy for your Abilities, you can cast them. It's unwise, in the extreme, to put in an ability function that penalises a player for using mods like Primed Flow. Or, from another perspective, makes putting on a mod that's beneficial to the frame cause you to need more energy than any other frame's 4th ability in order to cast your new 3.

With the way this works, both myself and LostSeeker feel that it would be actively preventative to using the ability in a lot of situations.

Yes, increased Efficiency on the base cast is awesome, but not if it comes at the penalty of the ability during EB costing this much:

This ability, even with as much power as you're giving it, will never be worth 269 energy, no way. No ability is. And making it impossible to cast if you're at less than 112 energy during EB is incredibly limiting.

Exalted Blade has a Drain, it's already possible for that fact alone to be the balance for adding extra power to Radial Slash, it's fine to use that instead of obtuse calculations.

Relax and let your ability be powerful without trying to put penalties like this on it ^^

This.

Thank you for pointing out the kinds of things I wanted to avoid, as inhibiting this ability would keep it as a dead ability or worse. Many Excaliburs do spec for duration and run Flow or Primed Flow to keep their Exalted Blade out as much as possible, and these sorts of penalties are nothing short of an insult to an already efficient and effective mod loadout. I apologize for seeming a little triggered, but I'm in total agreement with Birdframe_Prime to avoid stuff like this entirely, which is very likely to render this ability deader than dead, due to butchering how people mod to make all his other abilities flow well.

This is not synergy.

Edited March 1, 2019 by LostSeeker0
Punctuation

[1d1ot-M4chine]

On 2019-03-01 at 11:48 AM, LostSeeker0 said:

This.

Thank you for pointing out the kinds of things I wanted to avoid, as inhibiting this ability would keep it as a dead ability or worse. Many Excaliburs do spec for duration and run Flow or Primed Flow to keep their Exalted Blade out as much as possible, and these sorts of penalties are nothing short of an insult to an already efficient and effective mod loadout. I apologize for seeming a little triggered, but I'm in total agreement with Birdframe_Prime to avoid stuff like this entirely, which is very likely to render this ability deader than dead, due to butchering how people mod to make all his other abilities flow well.

This is not synergy.

i feel like since so many people use EB on while mixing in his 1 and 2, radial slash should synergize well with EB and his other abilities and have bonuses for using while in EB. 

Maybe make radial slash have a base range of 10m and have it scale EB's wave dmg so its a super high dps ability with good crowd nuking.

i think also making sure it doesnt totally disrupt the flow of an EB builds so its more of an ADDITION to the frame rather than just saying this is an ability now deal with it, seeing how its currently being thought of as something to be used in conjunction with EB  i think it would be good for it to not need a lot of modding for it to be a good ability that does its job of being a quick nonspam nuke to get some breathing room.

also i definitely think some sort of energy return like the orbs from kills would be great for during EB to stay topped off/ get energy back after a mistake (fat fingering an ability, or just an energy drain eximus)

Edited March 3, 2019 by fallenkell

[LostSeeker0]

On 2019-03-03 at 1:29 AM, fallenkell said:

i feel like since so many people use EB on while mixing in his 1 and 2, radial slash should synergize well with EB and his other abilities and have bonuses for using while in EB. 

Maybe make radial slash have a base range of 10m and have it scale EB's wave dmg so its a super high dps ability with good crowd nuking.

i think also making sure it doesnt totally disrupt the flow of an EB builds so its more of an ADDITION to the frame rather than just saying this is an ability now deal with it, seeing how its currently being thought of as something to be used in conjunction with EB  i think it would be good for it to not need a lot of modding for it to be a good ability that does its job of being a quick nonspam nuke to get some breathing room.

also i definitely think some sort of energy return like the orbs from kills would be great for during EB to stay topped off/ get energy back after a mistake (fat fingering an ability, or just an energy drain eximus)

Well, if we are going to go the route of the energy return, it should leave a Garuda-like mark on enemies it hits but fails to kill for several seconds, that it killed when marked, still drops the energy. The major flaw I'm seeing here is that if it only gives energy on kill, then this receiving energy back will fail hard when you end up going against Sortie mobs that can't be killed right away by such an ability.

Another thing I fear is the energy given back may be too much, enabling this mechanic to be abused effectively. And a mechanic that can't make up its mind whether to be overpowered or useless is something we should avoid entirely.

In order to think of how the mechanics should work well, we should also think of all the scenarios in which they will fail as well. I'm afraid too many here are getting too ahead of themselves and not factoring in these sorts of problems that pop up with some of the mechanics suggested. The way I did my suggestion as a straight-forward defensive/offensive AOE attack was to think: "Yes the initial attack could serve against lots of flunkies, but what about big mobs? Give it exponential damage to do the job to still retain effectiveness. Damage too overpowered to erase an entire mob of strong enemies? Limit the highest damage area to point-blank range, while the waves thrown out still perform significant damage to lesser mobs as collateral damage."

The best result is to make an ability without frivolous mechanics that lose their purpose when thrown into scenarios that aren't ideal. I do absolutely agree with you on how it needs to be an addition to the frame and Exalted Blade, which is why I envisioned it as Exalted Blade's power attack on steroids for moments when you need things to die immediately and in large numbers. Yes, I know people are worried about energy problems for Excalibur, but you can often make Exalted Blade have an extremely minuscule drain from a combination of duration and efficiency, and supplement your energy with enemy drops as you shred mobs in your way.The energy drain of this one attack would be significant, and should be significant for good reason, due to it being quite powerful.

Edited March 4, 2019 by LostSeeker0
Typo

[ganjou234]

7 hours ago, LostSeeker0 said:

Yes, I know people are worried about energy problems for Excalibur, but you can often make Exalted Blade have an extremely minuscule drain from a combination of duration and efficiency, and supplement your energy with enemy drops as you shred mobs in your way.The energy drain of this one attack would be significant, and should be significant for good reason, due to it being quite powerful.

This is why I used the limitation due to energy consumption, it's basically a radial nuke that scales with Melee Combo Counters (at least on Melee 2.0) and Stealth multipliers. Without limitation, it becomes like the abused nukes and spin-to-win we have today.

But I'm beginning to think that there needs to be a reward for being able to kill enemies with it.

What do you think of this...

• Consume 50% of current energy
  • Restore 25% of Exalted Burst's cost for every kill with Exalted Burst.

With this, you'll need to kill at least 4 enemies to restore the enormous cost used for Exalted Burst.

[LostSeeker0]

18 hours ago, ganjou234 said:

This is why I used the limitation due to energy consumption, it's basically a radial nuke that scales with Melee Combo Counters (at least on Melee 2.0) and Stealth multipliers. Without limitation, it becomes like the abused nukes and spin-to-win we have today.

But I'm beginning to think that there needs to be a reward for being able to kill enemies with it.

What do you think of this...

• Consume 50% of current energy
  • Restore 25% of Exalted Burst's cost for every kill with Exalted Burst.

With this, you'll need to kill at least 4 enemies to restore the enormous cost used for Exalted Burst.

And with this gimmick, this ability becomes suicide for your energy reserves when enemies begin becoming too strong to be instantly killed, Are you sure you wish to replicate the problem of why Ember is irrelevant in high end content? Again, this single gimmick is going to be disastrous, and should be simplified as a straight energy cost, as this gimmick would cripple an Excal that did it at the wrong time, or simply fat-fingered.

Remember, Excalibur is a Warframe meant for beginners to the game, and this gimmick is a good way to frustrate them with something that is too punishing for beginners, which if DE does keep to this standard, DE themselves will never include something like this to keep new players happy.

I'm afraid this energy gimmick will cause more trouble than anything, and should be put to rest. Overcomplicating things is a good way to cause more problems to arise, where a more straightforward method can yield more clean results. Give it a straight energy cost that is a bit hefty like the current 75 energy cost, and people will be able to work with that much more effectively.

Edited March 4, 2019 by LostSeeker0
Clarification