Some feedback on the nighwave system from a casual player

[bluejello]

Someone who wishes to remain unnamed posted this in a discord, I am posting it with their permission.

"As a super casual Warframe player I'm a bit conflicted on the new Nightwave system. Not going to lie I'm going to miss the instant reward system of the alerts. The "battle pass" format is actually a bit discouraging to me because it's a list of to-do's that I normally wouldn't do or want to do. Fully socket 5 Ayatan Sculptures in a week? No idea what Sanctuary Onslaught is, or a sortie for that matter. No I do not have the entire solar system unlocked. Several of the nodes are just too difficult or impossible to solo. Complete 5 scans for Cephalon Simaris? Seems more like a chore. I don't like invasions period ... sigh. I Don't mean to be negative about this change. I'm sure the majority of the players who are used to the grind will welcome another grind that they can do on their own time and not have to watch alerts. I just don't like the format or the fact that it potentially locks out newer players or more casual (lazy?) players like me from some of the higher tier rewards. Of course no one is forcing me to play. There are plenty of other games that I can spend time on." - someone who wishes for a way to send feedback anonymously

[Swagernator22663]

Sorry but if you put nothing into the game, why would game should give you anything ...

 

This goes to that anonymous person.

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, bluejello said:

I just don't like the format or the fact that it potentially locks out newer players or more casual (lazy?) players like me from some of the higher tier rewards.

Is that really a bad thing?

Should completely casual and "fresh out the pod" new Tenno really be getting the higher tier rewards?

[Tsukinoki]

5 minutes ago, bluejello said:

I just don't like the format or the fact that it potentially locks out newer players or more casual (lazy?) players like me from some of the higher tier rewards.

And how is that a problem?

Why would a purely new player, or someone who plays super casually, even care about the higher tier of rewards?
Why shouldn't there be rewards for players willing to put in the effort and work?

The higher tier of rewards either cosmetic, or stuff for min-maxing for the most part; and the lower tier of stuff is usable for newer/more casual players (such as lower ranks giving weapon slots and warframe slots).
Neither a super casual player nor a newbie will really care for the higher tier rewards.

[RAZORLIGHT]

yeah as long as the warframe community wont accept any criticism about warframe (and if the devs dont acknowledge it) this game wont have a future.

this new alert system was also intended to help casual players who cant play 24/7 when the alerts drop.

 

playing this game since 2013 and i dont like where the game and the community is going.

do you think, the game will improve if everybody says, "ye DE, everything is fine"... jesus christ.

 

now white knights, let the rage rain down on me *facepalm*

 

@bluejello

DE needs feedback like yours, so thank you for your post.

Edited February 28, 2019 by RAZORLIGHT

[xGryphus]

First of all keep in mind that (according to Twitter posts from DE) Nightwave season will last for about 10 - 11 weeks and will only require about 60% completion rate to get all rewards. That being said, you get what you deserve - casual players will get casual rewards.

Edited February 28, 2019 by xGryphus

[(PSN)OriginalEquinox]

Yeah this person you're quoting is clearly not meant for Warframe if he isn't willing to do some standard tasks and missions in the span of a week for some really good loot, and if he's new to a point that he doesn't know what Sanctuary is then his opinion doesn't hold much weight either

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, RAZORLIGHT said:

yeah as long as the warframe community wont accept any criticism about warframe (and if the devs dont acknowledge it) this game wont have a future.

this new alert system was also intended to help casual players who cant play 24/7 when the alerts drop.

 

playing this game since 2013 and i dont like where the game and the community is going.

do you think, the game will improve if everybody says, "ye DE, everything is fine"... jesus christ.

 

now white knights, let the rage rain down on me *facepalm*

 

@bluejello

DE needs feedback like yours, so thank you for your post.

Could you elaborate on the relevance this has to the thread?

[Chewarette]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Equinox21697 said:

he doesn't know what Sanctuary is then his opinion doesn't hold much weight either

To be fair, Sanctuary is an insanely pointless game mode. Only used for fast leveling/focus with the minimum involvement possible.

[Xylia]

I'm thinking about Nitain Extract (which, face it, other than aesthetics, is the main rewards out of this system other than Forma/Potatoes).

Before, if you REALLY wanted Nitain Extract, you could get 2-3 per day if you didn't mind checking the Twitter Feed every 30min or so.

Now, to get Nitain Extract, you must spend Wolf Creds. To get Wolf Creds, you have to move up a rank which requires 10,000 standing. To get 10,000 standing, you have to complete several objectives, and not all the ranks even give Wolf Creds from the appearance of things?

So we go from 2-3 per day out of single missions to "Grind your eyeballs out to get creds to buy a bundle of 5"?

And most of these things are weekly objectives. According to wiki, you get 1-2 Daily ones that only give 1,000 and you can sometimes find capture targets that give a whopping 50 standing. Wooo.

That, and the way the Wolf Creds read, is that they decay too. Awesome. Something else that you get, that if you don't use it right away, eventually it will be gone forever.

I understand the need to change from the old alert system, but I'm not really thinking that this was the way to go either. I would have preferred that we just had daily alerts, make like 10-20 alerts and leave them up for 24 hours and just do that. Or something.

But turning it into a grindfest seems strange, especially if this is going to be the only way to get Nitain Extract.

[Sloan441]

21 minutes ago, xGryphus said:

First of all keep in mind that (according to Twitter posts from DE) Nightwave season will last for about 10 - 11 weeks and will only require about 60% completion rate to get all rewards. 

60% completion rate? That's casual enough for me. It's good enough if I can get what I want just be indulging on weekends. 

Frankly, there isn't that much that I've seen (so far) that interests me enough to get too excited about the whole thing. 

23 minutes ago, (PS4)Equinox21697 said:

...if he's new to a point that he doesn't know what Sanctuary is then his opinion doesn't hold much weight either

Once you have Khora, you're pretty much done with Sanctuary. There's very little reason to visit it once you've achieved that goal--and it's something you can do whenever you get around to it. It'll be even less significant once Khora Prime appears. The OCD completionist might desire the vandal weapons, but they have no significance past that and what little MR they offer. 

[Xylia]

So basically this is like the battle passes from the Battle Royale games?

*sigh*

We're really doing that "I wanna do that to!!!" thing? Really?

[gabuchan]

OP does have a great point. Newbies will have no idea what sorties or sanctuary onslaught missions are, yet they have a list telling them to do exactly those missions. I hope the new player experience rework that DE's working on takes a look at these concerns. Warframe has never been good at introducing a lot of key elements of the game to new players. 

[Xaxma]

2 minutes ago, gabuchan said:

OP does have a great point. Newbies will have no idea what sorties or sanctuary onslaught missions are, yet they have a list telling them to do exactly those missions. I hope the new player experience rework that DE's working on takes a look at these concerns. Warframe has never been good at introducing a lot of key elements of the game to new players. 

Hopefully it gives them incentive to research it more then in their own time. If you want something, you go and get it. Nothing is handed to you. If you don't know something, ask someone, or visit the wiki, or explore the game. 

OP has a terrible point. If you put nothing into the game, you should get nothing back. If you don't care to learn, why even play Warframe at all? 

[Ottofyre]

Okay, so we know what the quoted person doesn't want... but what does he want?

The old alert system was not working for a lot of players - with things they needed either popping up at times they simply couldn't play or, especially for newer players, on nodes they didn't have access to. This new system isn't perfect, but it does fix a lot of problems that the old system had. 

Saying you have issues with the new system is fine - they want feedback, believe it or not - but without actually saying what you do want it doesn't give them much to work with.

I have concerns of my own but I want to see how it plays out more before I form a final opinion on it.

[Singrave]

casuals\lazies can go to market or warframe.market and buy what they want with their lazy plat.

 

[Hououza]

As someone who has been playing Warframe for almost 6 years, I fully agree with the concerns about the Nightwave being worse for casual and new players than the alerts.

Referring to a post placed on Reddit by a new player, the old alert system had things like 300 Oxium which were a boon to new players who did not necessarily have the access to nodes where farming these resources.

At the end of the day, it feels like a lot of the cosmetic rewards are more difficult for new players to obtain as they need to climb a reasonable way through the ranks to get enough Wolf Creds to buy them.

[DerGreif2]

35 minutes ago, Xylia said:

So we go from 2-3 per day out of single missions to "Grind your eyeballs out to get creds to buy a bundle of 5"? 

No we got instead of hoping that you are not at work or sleeping during the nitain missions and camping in the app to play a few games for 5 nitain. It is an improvement. A huge one. Also new players should not get the high tier stuff like umbral forma. They have to deal with it and get more into the game.

The hole point of the system is to get the alert rewards more reliable instead of pure luck. And it even provided some things to do for players like me that have all things already. You just have to do 60% of the missions in a season to get to rank 30. That's is more than enough for players that play an hour per day. The challenges even stack.

Yes it's a battle past but it's free and the only negative points of a battle pass is that it locks things form the nor paying players. This is not the case. So stop the qq

[DerGreif2]

6 minutes ago, Hououza said:

Referring to a post placed on Reddit by a new player, the old alert system had things like 300 Oxium which were a boon to new players who did not necessarily have the access to nodes where farming these resources. 

You can get 300 odious with 10 waves on Io... the alert system was useless even for new players often times. For that things some things like the chat system exists. If you need it ask for it. And to do a mission where you get one control module or so... it's pointless. Or WAS pointless.

[5H4DE]

I don't see the problem, someone who can't be bothered to play the game still wants to be showered with rewards in said game?

[maddragonmaster]

honestly feel a bit pev'ed that some people are a bit inconsiderate  about casual play and that the fact OP didn't really help much by refering it to (lazy play). i put enough effort in this game ran with randoms and what grind after grind after horrible grind by myself since the clan i am in  ended up a ghost town and my friend and clan leader needed work on his labtop  in order to handle warframe.  yet one of those dang things out of no where demands that i need to run with a friend or clan mate. i played this game dry to  the point i see no point putting in an unnecessary of effort in anything anymore since its the same old do this and that wait for an unnecessary long amount of time for the dailies or weeklies to cycle over. 

and the fricking kicker is that i need to take breaks now and then because of this fact. sorry just getting a bit stir crazy because i feel like half the time i am this event meter thing doesn't move fast enough to even feel like i am doing any progress. i just got to the teir 2 reward and i am having a horrid case of anxiety  from this snail paced work. i mean syndicates and the previouse alerts were faster then this.

[RaidenFirewing]

29 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

 sorry just getting a bit stir crazy because i feel like half the time i am this event meter thing doesn't move fast enough to even feel like i am doing any progress. i just got to the teir 2 reward and i am having a horrid case of anxiety  from this snail paced work. i mean syndicates and the previouse alerts were faster then this.

You got the tier 2 reward at the second day the Nightwave even exists. There are 30 tiers/ranks, each 10k rep. And the event will stick around for at least 10 weeks. That's 70 days.
So "normal pace" would be around one rank every other day. You're actually really fast.

Nightwave, and the structure it is right now, is exactly so you won't power through it, but can take your time with it. It's an incentive to play for veterans and a way to get amazing things for newer players, like inventory slots.

About the actual topic:
I can see very well how, for a new player, this systems seems like a step backwards from alerts. With alerts, you got a mission, could run the mission, and got the reward. Done.
Now you have acts/challenges, some of which you don't even know what they are (Sortie, Sanctuary Onslaught, Hydrolyst) You've got this giant bar of progress that you feel like you need to fill, that you feel like you're missing out on the game if you don't.

But the thing is... as stated multiple times in this thread: it's not about filling the bar. It's about setting yourself a goal to work towards. Maybe you want the inventory space, maybe you're aiming for the Umbral Forma. Maybe you want that sweet poster. Pick and choose, and then engage with it to your liking. And personally, I like it.

About the wolf creds ... I feel like they need to balance a bit the pace it is earned with the prices. So far, you're getting 50 credits all 3 rankups (ish, 4 rankups later on). If you want vauban, you need to spend 75 creds, same for a potato. That seems... steep, but then again, you're not supposed to get everything at once. The Wolf Cred Offerings will rotate, but they won't go away. You will always be able to buy them, once the season ends, with other creds, however they might be called then.

DE wanted to give the alerts more structure, from a random "hit or miss" to something you can actively work towards, and I think they did achieve that.
The issue now is that, of course, people see all this stuff and want to have it all. In other games it might not be much of an issue to have a pass like that. You're not playing rocket league for the loot (at least I suppose you're not).
But in warframe, you are. You play for the loot, and here, you're presented loot that dangles in front of you, entices you... which you probably won't get if you're not grinding for it. Which is the point of the system, but also the problem. People want to have all of the loot, and newer people will feel like they have no chance of getting said loot.

The main issue, in my eyes, lies in the time constraint. You fear you'll miss out on the loot, that you won't ever have any chance of getting it if you don't 100% it. One way to alleviate this might be to ensure that you will be able to earn the rewards at some later point, too. That however would take away from the flavour of the entire Nightwave, as it's supposed to be a varying seasonal reward structure.

In the end, I don't know of any way to solve this so that everyone is happy. For my part, I really enjoy Nightwave so far and I'm looking forward to see where it goes, and what the inevitable balance fixes (for it still needs balance tweaking) bring.

 

[Kontrollo]

5 minutes ago, RaidenFirewing said:

I can see very well how, for a new player, this systems seems like a step backwards from alerts. With alerts, you got a mission, could run the mission, and got the reward. Done.
Now you have acts/challenges, some of which you don't even know what they are (Sortie, Sanctuary Onslaught, Hydrolyst) You've got this giant bar of progress that you feel like you need to fill, that you feel like you're missing out on the game if you don't.

I think that's the most solid concern with the new system I've seen raised so far.

[maddragonmaster]

12 minutes ago, RaidenFirewing said:

You got the tier 2 reward at the second day the Nightwave even exists. There are 30 tiers/ranks, each 10k rep. And the event will stick around for at least 10 weeks. That's 70 days.
So "normal pace" would be around one rank every other day. You're actually really fast.

Nightwave, and the structure it is right now, is exactly so you won't power through it, but can take your time with it. It's an incentive to play for veterans and a way to get amazing things for newer players, like inventory slots.

About the actual topic:
I can see very well how, for a new player, this systems seems like a step backwards from alerts. With alerts, you got a mission, could run the mission, and got the reward. Done.
Now you have acts/challenges, some of which you don't even know what they are (Sortie, Sanctuary Onslaught, Hydrolyst) You've got this giant bar of progress that you feel like you need to fill, that you feel like you're missing out on the game if you don't.

But the thing is... as stated multiple times in this thread: it's not about filling the bar. It's about setting yourself a goal to work towards. Maybe you want the inventory space, maybe you're aiming for the Umbral Forma. Maybe you want that sweet poster. Pick and choose, and then engage with it to your liking. And personally, I like it.

About the wolf creds ... I feel like they need to balance a bit the pace it is earned with the prices. So far, you're getting 50 credits all 3 rankups (ish, 4 rankups later on). If you want vauban, you need to spend 75 creds, same for a potato. That seems... steep, but then again, you're not supposed to get everything at once. The Wolf Cred Offerings will rotate, but they won't go away. You will always be able to buy them, once the season ends, with other creds, however they might be called then.

DE wanted to give the alerts more structure, from a random "hit or miss" to something you can actively work towards, and I think they did achieve that.
The issue now is that, of course, people see all this stuff and want to have it all. In other games it might not be much of an issue to have a pass like that. You're not playing rocket league for the loot (at least I suppose you're not).
But in warframe, you are. You play for the loot, and here, you're presented loot that dangles in front of you, entices you... which you probably won't get if you're not grinding for it. Which is the point of the system, but also the problem. People want to have all of the loot, and newer people will feel like they have no chance of getting said loot.

The main issue, in my eyes, lies in the time constraint. You fear you'll miss out on the loot, that you won't ever have any chance of getting it if you don't 100% it. One way to alleviate this might be to ensure that you will be able to earn the rewards at some later point, too. That however would take away from the flavour of the entire Nightwave, as it's supposed to be a varying seasonal reward structure.

In the end, I don't know of any way to solve this so that everyone is happy. For my part, I really enjoy Nightwave so far and I'm looking forward to see where it goes, and what the inevitable balance fixes (for it still needs balance tweaking) bring.

 

the 3 days bit is what making me panic. i mean are they going to be out there for 10 weeks or is it going to be some short thing? i mean i feel like i am pressed to do every immediately and some of the stuff looks so far out of reach just like every dang single "loot" you get. were it takes hundreds upon thousands of runs just to get a dang drop.

[RaidenFirewing]

Steve confirmed on twitter that The Wolf of Saturn Six will last "10 ish" Weeks, and to get all 30 tiers, you're supposed to complete around 60% of all challenges.
So there is really no need to rush.
https://twitter.com/sj_sinclair/status/1101102882026336256

 

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by RaidenFirewing