5 Years of Playing: Nightwave may be the End

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

Okay, where do I begin? How about a little background info.

I started playing WF on the Xbox back in late 2014. Like many players at the time, I'd started my Xbox1 adventure with the original Destiny. Given the controversy surrounding the game, and the rate at which its content dried up, I quit Destiny cold turkey shortly after the Dark Below DLC, and I've never looked back. Seeking to satisfy the itch that Destiny afflicted me with, I discovered a little F2P title named Warframe, after following in the footsteps of a friend who similarly felt disenfranchised with Destiny.

Back in those days, Warframe was a rough thing; difficult to describe (it's like Destiny in every way, but its totally unlike Destiny in every way), even more difficult to understand than it is today, and it had a far smaller community (I kinda miss the old community; before WF got popular and poor chat moderation divided the community, region was actually populated by a majority of decent people). The game was wonky in its controls, movement, and combat; mechanics were cobbled together with seemingly little foresight regarding the implementation of new systems, and as such, the game would be changed in a fundamental way every other week by patches, hotfixes, and updates.

But Warframe was fun; it offered no lack of activities to partake in. Gameplay was simple; it was easy to pickup and combat wasn't so intense that you couldn't entertain a casual conversation with friends while mowing down armies of Grineer. The pace of the game was expansive, every new update brought new activities to partake in, new things to do, new mechanics to breakdown and optimize. And for many years, Warframe retained my faith and interests by staying true to this formula (apart from the Void rework; that was a historically terrible change).

But then something happened in 2017, sometime before Tennocon. Updates just... stopped coming. Every passing day, I'd get closer and closer to maxing out my MR, and there was nothing new coming out to widen the gap. New features just disappeared entirely, and DE went into radio silence. Right up until Tennocon 2017, when DE announced their most ambitious project yet: Open World Maps in Warframe.

I couldn't have been more EXCITED. One of my favorite genres in gaming is open-world RPGs; one of my favorite games is Warframe. It sounded like a match made in heaven! How could it possibly go wrong?!

Well, we all remember PoE's launch day, and the community wide disappointment that followed. PoE was just a roofless tileset with a door and a mission objective, and nothing of intrigue between. PoE brought nothing new to Warfarme: same mission types, adapted for open world; power creep weapons, like we'd been getting with every new Prime release; and new resources, but with the old grind.

In retrospect, it's really not surprising that the community got burned out on PoE so quickly; it was just a fresh coat of paint over familiar activities that had already become monotonous. Still, DE made an effort to appease the community, and after some expansion, Eidolon Hunting became a new favorite pastime, because it offered a new experience that you couldn't get anywhere else in Warframe. Cut ahead to 2018, and another content drought. Old issues were still prevalent, chat moderation had gone way past the point of being reasonable, and had started to adopt fascist ideals (I can't even type, "I'm coming, just give me a moment" into region without getting kicked; WTF?); and all manner of controversy was beginning to stain WF's consumer friendly reputation (Remember "Free Void?" How about the ratio difference between monetization expansions and content updates?). As suspected, DE eventually announced their 2nd open world map, Fortuna, and explained that the content drought stemmed from in-house resource demands; they couldn't spare staff for maintaining their game because all hands were on deck for Fortuna's development.

Okay. Sounds reasonable, but even so, the community had their doubts. PoE wasn't exactly a hit, and most of us were already exhausted with the "new" grind. What assurances could Fortuna offer to alleviate the community's doubt? Well, it'd be less grindy, DE claimed. And when DE finally released Fortuna, they stayed true to their word: Fortuna was far less grindy than PoE.

But that wasn't enough, because at the end of the day, Fortuna was just PoE with a fresh coat of paint; PoE, which was everything we already had in Warframe with a fresh coat of paint.

I think you get where I'm going with this. Warframe had ceased being about new content, and become a smorgasbord of refitted old content. PoE kept me busy for a couple months, and after the first 3 weeks, I HATED PoE with a passion, thanks to its non-stop grind rewarding me with more of the same. By the time Fortuna came out, I was fed up with PoE; I hadn't entered Cetus for months. But when Fortuna came out, I was bored with it 3 days after release. 3 days. All of DE's time and effort amounted to 3 days worth of entertainment on my end, and all that time they'd spent on developing Fortuna, I'd spent doing the exact. Same. Things. Over. And over. And over again, in anticipation of Fortuna.

Fortuna 2 didn't improve things. Within 5 Orb Mother fights (day 1), I was bored out of my dome. Orb Mother fights weren't fun; they didn't introduce anything new; they were incredibility tedious and so easy that I'd decided to solo my first attempt, which I succeeded in. By the end of the 2nd attempt, I'd nailed the solution down. I could tackle Orb Mothers with precisely 0 urgency. Thanks to the many design choices that DE made to artificially increase the difficulty of the Orb Mother fights, they essentially limited viable options for speed running Orb Mothers down to the narrowest meta yet: Chroma and Nezha. Wow. What fun. I have 38 different Warframes, each with distinct playstyles, and I can only use 2 of them (who have very similar face-tanking playstyles) if I want to tackle an Orb Mother without getting slaughtered. Monotonous doesn't even come close to describing my feelings on Orb Mother fights. I derive more entertainment from circumnavigating region chat's kickbots than I do from partaking in any activity Fortuna offers.

And now we get to the present day. Now we get to the abandonment of the Alert system, and the adoption of the Nightwave system.

And I'm fed up with it, two weeks in. Just like everything since PoE, Nightwave has introduced nothing new to the game. It's the same thing under a different brand. Only this time, DE forgot to cover it up with a fresh coat of paint.

Nightwave is a checklist; a to-do list of activities who's completion actually offers some pretty enticing rewards. The problem with this checklist, is that it's all written around the completion of tasks that became monotonous YEARS ago. "Kill 3 assassination targets." Why? I've already killed thousands of assassination targets; that activity has long since lost its appeal. "Do an hour long survival." Okay, this is more my speed! But wait... "Do an hour long survival mission, WITH a friend or clanmate." My clan has long since gone inactive, and thanks to real-life, schedules rarely permit the time required for my friends and I play a game cooperatively for an unbroken hour. "Get 10 Perfect Animal Captures." The only Open World activity I despise more than mining is conservation. I play Warframe to shoot ugly enemies in the face with flashy BFGs; not pick rocks or waste my time role-playing an Animal Control Officer.

This is just a couple of examples from week 2; I don't feel the need to recount any examples from week 1; I anticipate even more grievous examples in week 3.

Nightwave has taken some of the most boring and inconvenient aspects of the game, and gated valuable content behind monotony and repetition. Very few of these activities are enjoyable; some of the activities that I would enjoy can't be completed due to social barriers. I'm beginning to feel like I log into Warframe just to "play" a job.

There is no entertainment to be savored in any of this; if you want the new goodies, then you're gonna have to waste time on boring and monotonous activities. Let me rephrase that for context: If you want a paycheck, then you're going to have to spend time doing things you'd rather not do. Nightwave isn't a game, it's a job!

What happened to Warframe? When did DE decide to stop producing content aimed at entertainment, and instead begin converting their entire game into a chore?

I know that things are not going to go back to the way they were; I'm well aware of that fact. My only hope for Warframe is that through the process of feedback and updates, DE converts Nightwave from its current tedious design and renovates it into something entertaining. If they don't, then I'll have to find more enjoyable ways to spend my time. And my sentiment isn't unique; trust me, when the novelty of Nightwave wears off, more and more players are going to start reiterating these points.

I can't see Warframe sustaining itself with this kind of a system; what's potentially even more depressing, is that I'm fast approaching the point of indifference; I'm getting to the point where Warframe's success or failure will mean nothing to me. And after having invested five years of my life into this amazing community and this amazing game, I would absolutely hate to see it reach that point. I know I'll get over it (same way I did with Destiny), but I can't help but feel as though I'd be worse off if I did drop Warframe. Warframe has been something of a daily norm for me; the entertainment it offers has been, up until this point, fairly consistent. I don't want that entertainment to become a memory, but the way DE has been directing their game... I feel as though I'm not being left with much of a choice.

There has to be a way for DE to revitalize Nightwave, without gating content behind monotonous activities. I already have a job, thank you; Warframe is supposed to be my daily escape from commitment, not a virtual simulation of the daily rat-race. And that is really what I'd like to see; a return to what Warframe is supposed to be.

For any staff members of DE who may come across this; allow me to reiterate: this is not a personal attack against any of you, your product, or your community. This is a long-time member of your community, who has been a proud supporter of Warframe's endeavor, providing you with perspective and feedback. I hope you don't view this as a "fix it or I quit" ultimatum (come on, I'm just one player; I know that I wouldn't be able to put a dent in your financial earnings even if I wanted to); I wrote this in the manner that I did, because I felt that it would best outline where the Warframe experience started to get a little sketchy.

Regardless of whether your response to these issues convinces me to stay on or quit, I still wish you the best.

Yours truly, A Lone Tenno.

Edited March 5, 2019 by (XB1)Vile Slanders

[taiiat]

"i didn't have time to write something short, so i wrote something long" is... quite applicable here.

but anyways, after skimming past and ignoring 90% of the words, i was able to find the subject matter.

 

just about everything in Warframe is Nightwave already. do a very basic thing of moving from A to B to press a button or shoot a thing, Et Cetera. that's already the entire game and it always has been. which doesn't have to change how you see Warframe or the type of content you're seeking, but it is what it is. that's all i want to point out.

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

1 minute ago, taiiat said:

 

just about everything in Warframe is Nightwave already. do a very basic thing of moving from A to B to press a button or shoot a thing, Et Cetera. that's already the entire game and it always has been. which doesn't have to change how you see Warframe or the type of content you're seeking, but it is what it is. that's all i want to point out. 

"If you want to make walking enjoyable, then learn how to dance. If you want to make breathing enjoyable, then learn how to sing. If you want to deprive life of all joy and meaning, then quantify everything to its most insignificant value."

You can break Warframe down to "press A to win"; the challenge of a game developer is to make "press A to win" enjoyable. That's all I want to point out.

[DrBorris]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)Vile Slanders said:

"If you want to make walking enjoyable, then learn how to dance. If you want to make breathing enjoyable, then learn how to sing. If you want to deprive life of all joy and meaning, then quantify everything to its most insignificant value."

You can break Warframe down to "press A to win"; the challenge of a game developer is to make "press A to win" enjoyable. That's all I want to point out.

Ironic, because if you used that ideology to have fun with Nightwave (and the rest of Warframe's content) you would probably enjoy it quite a bit more.

 

It is impossible for DE to create a constant content stream, there must be repetition in a "live service" game, especially a looter. Warframe has such a massive depth of not only different content, but an endless combination of ways to go about completing said content. As you say, if you break everything down into just its process it is a hell of a lot less joyful.

So, crazy idea, maybe the best way to enjoy Warframe is to dance.

[MalloryFR]

My guess :
They'll make open world maps again and again. In these maps, you can fly and go in space, go to other planets in other open world maps.
You'll be on planets...
Someone will tell you we've missions around. A B C D E + Boss missions + Syndicate missions + Invasions + Contested missions (PvP missions) + Events + ??? ...
You take mission C
Objective pin on the map, or in orbit.
You go there.
Speech
Different kind of actual warframe missions mixed.
Maybe more cooperative things to do. I mean kind of mini games for sabotage etc... In which you need all the players involved in the mission. From 1 to 4.

People who prefer fast missions "Like Doom" can be disappointed, so in the codex... You'll be able to filter the kind of mission you want. I want a capture mission, not in the snow, with grineers. As much filters I choose, the other choices will "grey out". Then I clic the big button Launch mission. And boum I'm allready at the entrance on an open world planet ready for mission E (see above).

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

So, crazy idea, maybe the best way to enjoy Warframe is to dance.

It'd still be nice to have a new dance every once in a while. After 5 years of the same waltz, the song isn't quite as enticing as it once was. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy shooting things, and I probably will to my dying day. But getting pidgeonholed into shooting Vor 3 more times... Going through a total of six loading screens, just to one-shot 3 different bosses... How is that an enjoyable use of time? Or the conservation: until now, I could just ignore its existence and not be penalized; and I was happy with that. With Nightwave, its now sniff turds or forfeit standing. And don't even get me started on the "co-op with friend/clanmate" mandate, that just comes across as presumptuous on DE's part.

There are ways of making this kind of system enjoyable; I remember Halo Reach employing a similar Daily/Weekly reward system that preserved the entertainment value of the game. Another way DE could curb resentment is by NOT gating such valuable rewards behind such ridiculous requirements. I've been wanting an Umbral Forma since Umbral Mods were introduced; but that want isn't strong enough for me to justify putting up with the monotony of Nightwave.

The game needs to feel like less of a chore. I love challenges, but there is nothing challenging in killing Warframe bosses. Conservation is an experience that Warframe can do without. Real life time constraints means that I have to literally schedule an appointment on Warframe with a friend, just to spend 1 hour in a survival mission. And all this extra hassle is supposed to be entertaining?

Why can't Warframe just be a game? Why does it have to take so much time out of my day? At least with the old Alert & Event System, it was jump in, jump out. I do not have a large amount of time to invest in leisure; so when I invest my time into leisure, I invest it into activities that I enjoy. Nightwave is just asking for too much while putting a lot at stake.

Edited March 5, 2019 by (XB1)Vile Slanders

[ADM-Ntek]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Vile Slanders said:

Why can't Warframe just be a game? Why does it have to take so much time out of my day? At least with the old Alert & Event System, it was jump in, jump out. I do not have a large amount of time to invest in leisure; so when I invest my time into leisure, I invest it into activities that I enjoy. Nightwave is just asking for too much while putting a lot at stake.

so much this. and everything else you have said. personally i find nightwave demotivating. the only reward i would want is the umbral forma. but i already know i wont get it. because to get it i would have to do so many things i simply don't want to do. i don't enjoy them so i'm not going to. i play to have fun not to do a chore. and while i know i'm in the minority i despise the index. so alerts were a nice way to make money. maybe not the most efficient but for me the most enjoyable. alerts were most of the time the reason why i even launched the game to see if there was something nice to do. but now i know there isn't. and i keep finding myself almost launching the game only to be like "oh wait no point"

[JackHargreav]

5 years alsó and I can't see why the New System is so scary for you. Like it or not Nightwave will stay and that's it.

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

9 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

5 years alsó and I can't see why the New System is so scary for you. Like it or not Nightwave will stay and that's it.

I really wish people would actually read what I wrote rather than just post a preemptive response. How is the similarity between our playtimes even relevant to the conversation? I've known founders who quit Warframe in the post PoE content drought; so based on your implication, I'm supposed to discredit their decision because I've now played longer? I'm genuinely curious as to your reasoning, so please elaborate.

Next, I acknowledged in my original post that Nightwave was here to stay, why are you repeating truisms?

Finally: No where in the original post did I state a fear of change; I whole heartily support change in Warframe, but new systems typically require polish. How DE decides to polish Nightwave will have a hefty impact on my continued commitment to the game, because the current iteration of Nightwave is not worth the hassle, and given that it locks valuable items behind monotonous or inconvenient challenges, I'm left to feel penalized for refusing to take part in filler activities that are repetitive and boring. The lack of entertainment leads me to liken Nightwave to having a second job, whereas pre-Nightwave Warframe was an actual game that made progression entertaining.

No where in the original post did I demand that Nightwave be abandoned; nowhere did I say "I'm afraid of Nightwave." If you're going to put words into other peoples' mouths, please do it elsewhere; it is neither desired nor looked favorably upon here.

[JackHargreav]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Vile Slanders said:

I really wish people would actually read what I wrote rather than just post a preemptive response. How is the similarity between our playtimes even relevant to the conversation? I've known founders who quit Warframe in the post PoE content drought; so based on your implication, I'm supposed to discredit their decision because I've now played longer? I'm genuinely curious as to your reasoning, so please elaborate.

Next, I acknowledged in my original post that Nightwave was here to stay, why are you repeating truisms?

Finally: No where in the original post did I state a fear of change; I whole heartily support change in Warframe, but new systems typically require polish. How DE decides to polish Nightwave will have a hefty impact on my continued commitment to the game, because the current iteration of Nightwave is not worth the hassle, and given that it locks valuable items behind monotonous or inconvenient challenges, I'm left to feel penalized for refusing to take part in filler activities that are repetitive and boring. The lack of entertainment leads me to liken Nightwave to having a second job, whereas pre-Nightwave Warframe was an actual game that made progression entertaining.

No where in the original post did I demand that Nightwave be abandoned; nowhere did I say "I'm afraid of Nightwave." If you're going to put words into other peoples' mouths, please do it elsewhere; it is neither desired nor looked favorably upon here.

Thanks but no. I've seen plenty enough feedback about Nightwave. I'm not really interested in reading a wall of text filled with an irrelevant history lesson. 

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

2 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Thanks but no. I've seen plenty enough feedback about Nightwave. I'm not really interested in reading a wall of text filled with an irrelevant history lesson.  

I've got a sensible solution for you then: if you're not going to partake in the discussion, then don't comment. You only discredit your own statement when you let your mouth run.

[JackHargreav]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Vile Slanders said:

I really wish people would actually read what I wrote rather than just post a preemptive response. How is the similarity between our playtimes even relevant to the conversation? I've known founders who quit Warframe in the post PoE content drought; so based on your implication, I'm supposed to discredit their decision because I've now played longer? I'm genuinely curious as to your reasoning, so please elaborate.

Next, I acknowledged in my original post that Nightwave was here to stay, why are you repeating truisms?

Finally: No where in the original post did I state a fear of change; I whole heartily support change in Warframe, but new systems typically require polish. How DE decides to polish Nightwave will have a hefty impact on my continued commitment to the game, because the current iteration of Nightwave is not worth the hassle, and given that it locks valuable items behind monotonous or inconvenient challenges, I'm left to feel penalized for refusing to take part in filler activities that are repetitive and boring. The lack of entertainment leads me to liken Nightwave to having a second job, whereas pre-Nightwave Warframe was an actual game that made progression entertaining.

No where in the original post did I demand that Nightwave be abandoned; nowhere did I say "I'm afraid of Nightwave." If you're going to put words into other peoples' mouths, please do it elsewhere; it is neither desired nor looked favorably upon here.

Btw by glacing over it you're not saying anything new. The exact same feedback that many ppl  left on the forums except you hid the main point into a novel.

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

1 minute ago, JackHargreav said:

Btw by glacing over it you're not saying anything new. The exact same feedback that many ppl  left on the forums except you hid the main point into a novel.

Wow, it's almost as if the community has a few concerns that they want to bring to DE's attention. Gee, I wonder why so many players are all saying the same thing.

Edited March 5, 2019 by (XB1)Vile Slanders

[(XBOX)Gamerking9287]

i like the idea of umbral forma, but what i don't like you have to get to tier 29 just to get 1, please DE put them in the market so we can buy them if we want, 

[JackHargreav]

19 minutes ago, (XB1)Vile Slanders said:

Wow, it's almost as if the community has a few concerns that they want to bring to DE's attention. Gee, I wonder why so many players are all saying the same thing.

Look feedback is feedback but saying exact same thing over and over endlessly is hardly useful. A lot of ppl says the same thing for a while ok developer gets it. It's a problem. Saying it forever on the other hand is just a waste of time.

Especially when you don't get to the point only at the end.

 

 

[JackHargreav]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)Gamerking9287 said:

i like the idea of umbral forma, but what i don't like you have to get to tier 29 just to get 1, please DE put them in the market so we can buy them if we want, 

I don't think It's a good idea. Umbra polarity was exclusive to Umbra. For normal frames it should be hard to get an umbral polarity. And also this idea just makes you seem like your lazy. If it was buyable then no one would bother to complete Nightwave since getting plat is really easy.

Edited March 5, 2019 by JackHargreav

[(XBOX)Gamerking9287]

Maybe so but i am and won't be the only one that thinks it.

[ArcKnight9202]

I would like them to rework systems to make them more enticing to use. For example, this week has a 10 syndicate mission challenge. I've never started any syndicates and I have no intention of ever doing so under the current design. I am likely a minority in that and I accept it. However, Nightwave is hardly the driving force that will finally get me to start doing that "content".

Of course, this is all much harder than just tying challenges to it and putting players through the grinder whether it's good or not.

I want to like Nightwaves but I really dislike that they stripped out the basic Alert system to give it to us. Not everyone liked it but it's obvious that many did.

[DebrisFlow]

On 2019-03-05 at 3:45 AM, DrBorris said:

Ironic, because if you used that ideology to have fun with Nightwave (and the rest of Warframe's content) you would probably enjoy it quite a bit more.

 

It is impossible for DE to create a constant content stream, there must be repetition in a "live service" game, especially a looter. Warframe has such a massive depth of not only different content, but an endless combination of ways to go about completing said content. As you say, if you break everything down into just its process it is a hell of a lot less joyful.

So, crazy idea, maybe the best way to enjoy Warframe is to dance.

I think that breaking down the game to its base processes is inevitable if you play for so many years. You unintentionally realize that the whole game is either "Move from A to B while killing everything" or "defend the objective by killing everything" and unfortunately you cannot undo in your mind this realization (I would compare it to realizing that ###MAJOR SPOILER### Santa's not real). I'm finding myself in the same exact situation as the OP and i've been thinking a lot on how to feel the game joyful again with the content we have.

A solution proposed by many players is to create your own content with the endless combinations of ways to go (i think, one of the possible ways to read your methapor of "dancing"): Today i'll do the sortie with MK-1 weapons only. This mission no melee kills, etc. The quantity of these mini challenges is virtually infinite because of the "massive depth of not only different content, but an endless combination of ways to go" . But i soon realized that the solution is too arbitrary and lacks constraints. If i don't have a constraint (losing the reward) i lose the trill of the challenge. In the metaphor of dancing, i don't find rewarding to randomly invent my own dance foot-steps. In a game with no rules you can cheat on anything and that's not funny.

I think that the game DEvelopers should intervene there to make "press A to win" enjoyable. Adding random and less predictable modifiers to missions and enemies and, more importantly, to obtain the reward should be a good idea to surprise you with a reinvented mission each time you play it, break the routine and tickle you brain for adaptation. They have already tons of different in-game lego bricks to do that, so it would be also feasible and reasonable! Put more than one into a single mission and you have countless combinations.  Also, that's the same principle that makes (almost)everybody crazy for riven rolling, it's always a random surprise (get it, unveil it, roll it, 2 stats, 3 stats, 2-1, 3-1, etc). 

The problem is that in designing new game modes DE has been giving always something predictable and monotonous, and this undermines the effort they put in it. An example? Arbitrations: the idea of immunity drones and no revives is cool, but that's the only step and after some runs you know that they will be there forever and the surprise wears off. Sorties: the modifiers are those (14?) and those will remain, one per mission, now we're all accustomed to those. SO/ESO: you got it. In summary, here's a new mission, you will have that for eternity as it is.

Would be hard, in terms of programming effort, to implement a system of multiple procedurally generated mission modifiers and conditional rewards? Would it bring a higher change for mission failure / griefing? A mission that gives Corpus Tech guns to another random enemy type. Or that choses for you a random loadout on mission start.  As an example of conditional reward, imagine a challenge that impose to not kill a specific kind of enemy there present. Add to the mixer, enjoy. Feasible? Does it tackle the problem

On 2019-03-05 at 3:14 AM, (XB1)Vile Slanders said:

where the Warframe experience started to get a little sketchy.

?

Edited March 6, 2019 by DebrisFlow