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Riven Trading & Toolbuilders: Coming Changes


[DE]Rebecca

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Right now a lot is going on with Riven Trading discussions. Without getting into personal details, we are reviewing what took place.

As this review has unfolded, we want to experiment with applying a broader change that will prevent any individual market manipulation. This will also allow tool creators fair grounds to use clear and authorized sources of data that abides by all terms and policies.

Simply put, we will be trying out providing aggregated actual Riven trade value data for toolmakers to use. No more basing trades off of what people are posting in trade chat as asking prices, toolmakers will have access to per-platform actual Trade values.

When the data is set up we will post links and explain the update cadence / data, then toolmakers can either start or continue to provide Riven trade analysis for players. Our team has started putting everything together, I'm hoping we'll have our first release in a couple of weeks.

We are going to try doing this because we think it will allow fairer trading to occur with a standard baseline. Because Rivens vary in stats, we expect subjective value discussions to still take place.

It's worth noting that we handled this matter privately over the past two days. However in that time, there have been some instances of very mob-justice practices taking place that are below the honor of the Tenno. We all lift together - reports can be sent in to support where appropriate.

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huh, you do realize this is mostly pointless, knowing values still doesn't stop players from making the same question that happens in pretty much all trades, they ask "how much?"

The seller then specifies a price and the buyer sees if the budget they have is whitin range. So data on it almost irrelevant, you still need to ask and talk to the seller itself.

Going in to a trade with mentalities and statements such as:

  • "price is X"
  • "you are selling  it to cheap"
  • "you are selling for a value way to high"
  • "your budget is way to high, you shouldn't be buying X item for that much"

These are directly linked with poor trading conduct, even if you have data, you still need to chat with the player, you cannot go out of your way and decide how much someone else should spend on rivens, i'm in charge of my own game and i decide how much i should spend on a specific item, my sugestion is for other players to get this idea straight, to decide on your own, your budgets and your prices and if a trade is good or not for you. Again deciding on your own on your own trades, not the players next to you.

I understand you're trying to fix an issue with botting being used by only some players, but there are thousands of players with dozzens of rivens each, they can't monopolize the market, because many players already do their own decisions, sure they might have been exploiting the nature of the "god rivens" and using bots to quickly nail a good profit, but i don't believe you will be changing much, profit can still be made.

My sugestion is to invest resources into black market dealers and alt accounts for storing rivens, because when high amounts of platinum and primed chamber are involved, there is an oddly coincidence with the black market and nuked accounts, but that's me.

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Still a bit sad how the last Tactical Potato video is spreading massive misinformation, as he actually has 0 knowledge about barely any of the topics he said there, and newer players now took his word for law and are on a witch hunt for people from Riven Dealers, which actually have nothing to do with this. 

I see a lot of people disagreeing with me, so here is an essay for you. A-Z , everything that is wrong with the video.

Shadowy Riven Mafia - None of us are hiding anything though, everyone knows each other.
There is no ego trip, although I'll admit Faceless could've handled the chat with Semlar better, but the fact is he tried contacting him normally beforehand, the fact that this went to DE is just Semlars fault.
We are actually very happy about the Riven section in Semlars site, noone has a problem with that part of it being up, this is about the Riven Hunter paid app.
If you bartered riven prices starting at the average price, you're already most likely getting ripped off or undercutting.
We haven't cornered the market, in fact, Riven Dealers only control the top 1% of the Riven market.
Are you ripping someone off if he is willing to pay the price for your riven, could be argumented.
Actually, Riven Dealers don't say "Offer", it's a complete waste of time, because you will 100% be offered a very low price, everyone just puts the price next to his riven, unless he doesn't know the price himself yet, which is for an hour or two max.
None of us think we own the trading game..
This is a bigger point about us calling others "Insects" and having power over others, but here's a tl;dr - Faceless changed his name to avoid taking unnecessary, false flak. Someone changed his name to Faceless because he is a smartass, afterwards impersonating him and saying all that stupidity. (Bonus meme - he ate the mass report and got banned, not Faceless)
None of us have any power like that, best you can do is organize a mass false report to ban someone, but completely anyone can do that, all it takes is a small group.
Riven Dealers discord bot works off of Semlar.. their bot is down too.
Faceless didn't report the tracking acounts, he reported the new Service Semlar offers, which is the Riven Hunter app for 5$ that gives you live 24/7 surveilance over all trade chats and all regions - this would destroy the riven market. DE took it upon themselves to ban the tracking accounts. 
Because the bot is down, it's actually harder to snipe rivens now..
Also, I don't think Semlar helps players to not get ripped off, actually the opposite as Riven Dealers can search for very niche and expensive rivens that rarely anyone understands the value of.
Faceless did treat it a bit weirdly, but I don't recall saying he runs it or owns anything.
The discussion with Semlar seems like he is a villain, but the funniest thing is Semlar didn't even understand what he had actually made - he assumed the Riven Hunter app would help acquiring rivens, but what it would actually do is give massive power to those who would know how to use it and paid him for it, allowing to completely monopolize and destroy the market.
The screenshot the he keeps showing is the Riven Hunter app that you have to buy, not the Riven Dealers discord.. And again, RD discord does have their bot, but it works off of Semlar, so they don't have the bot either..
You can even see how bad the english is in those chat screenshots, Faceless has very good english.
Riven dealers hold the majority of the rivens in-game, obviously, with our unlimited 90 slots..
Prices don't skyrocket because of Riven Traders, they skyrocket because the platinum amount in the game is rising due to a massive influx of new players, pretty sure that's simple economics?
Semlar was messaged to try and resolve this peacefully and quietly, without others being involved, or the community. Semlar just made himself the victim there.

This might give my speech more solidity.
yeap.PNG
 

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Yeah I don't understand. Its a free market. People put a price and then some people are willing to pay it or not. How are you going to enforce a specific price? Are you going to introduce a way to obtain specific rivens for plat from non-player sources? For example, If i want a rubico riven i am beholden to the extremely inflated market price. Which is why I don't own a Rubico riven. @[DE]Rebecca can you clarify a little bit? I'm pretty confused.

Any tool that says a riven is worth X shouldnt be taken seriously anyways. A riven is worth what someone will pay. If a new player falls prey to predatory pricing, that's on them. Do some research and sit in trade chat for a few hours. Due diligence people. You don't just buy something without shopping around.

Why not just create an ingame pricing trend model that players can look at. Why should an external source shoulder the responsibility of protecting the player from predatory pricing? Whales are still gonna pay overinflated prices for Rivens, and that will drive the average up, but hey, more information IS always better, so play on i guess.

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This sounds like a fantastic addition for the toolmakers.

As a side note, I hope that DE considers in the future opening up more the API to allow more cool stuff to be done by the community.

I can only imagine the kinds of interesting apps being developed by the creative minds within the Warframe community that could be able to extend the game to entirely new levels.

Thanks DE!

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45 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are going to try doing this because we think it will allow fairer trading to occur with a standard baseline. Because Rivens vary in stats, we expect subjective value discussions to still take place.

How about a cap in trade per plat to discourage exorbitant pricing? I totally agree riven prices are subjective, and I've happily paid high pices for rivens before (and sold stuff for a pretty penny) but 10k+ is objectively too much. IMO a single riven shouldn't sell for more than $200 worth of plat (without discount).

The whole riven system needs to be looked at again, both in terms of trading and rerolling.  This is a nice first step, but if its the end of it, I'll be profoundly disappointed. How about allowing us to lock a single stat from being rerolled for some sort of insane amount of kuva, like 300k? We'd still have to farm a ton, but we wouldn't have to rely purely on RNG.

Also, does this mean the tool semlar had which let us filter rivens posted in trade chat by time, positives/negatives, weapon type, and asking price is gone? This was the closest thing we had to an auction house and I found it to be an excellent convenience. I don't have the time to sit in trade chat 24/7, so using this once every 12 hours was very helpful, it was the closest thing we had to an auction house.

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1 minute ago, Valkyr-Umbra said:

How about a cap in trade per plat to discourage exorbitant pricing? I totally agree riven prices are subjective, and I've happily paid high pices for rivens before, but 10k+ is objectively too much.

Anybody who would pay 10k plat for any riven needs their head examined.  Plat is in game currency not real money.  No one that I know can put plat in a will or take plat with it them to their graves.

 

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Good.  It's a shame it took an incident to get this going.

The Riven market has always been a shark market taking advantage of other players due to it's subjective nature and a lack of knowledge in many cases on the in-depth complexities of the damage system. I would argue Disposition ratings often have this problem as well.

A player is not simply selling an item. They're selling stats which takes a great deal more knowledge about the game to make an informed decision something the general gameplay of Warframe does not demand of it's players and therefor problematic when assigning value to these stats.

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2 hours ago, ---PV---Sniga said:

Still a bit sad how the last Tactical Potato video is spreading massive misinformation, as he actually has 0 knowledge about barely any of the topics he said there, and newer players now took his word for law and are on a witch hunt for people from Riven Dealers, which actually have nothing to do with this. 

 

"and are on a witch hunt for people from Riven Dealers, which actually have nothing to do with this. " Bruh, there are literal screenshots of their clan leader gloating about the ban. While it might have been unprofessional from TP to go into this issue like that, Riven Dealers ARE guilty.

Edit: I have read your edited comment. It seems there are a lot of things that we do not know about. The truth seems to be somewhere in the middle. What makes me wonder, though, is how come no one else knew about this premium riven hunting app? I am yet to find a person which is not associated to RD that knew about it. I wont jump to any conclusions this time but it is fishy I must say.

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What about that auctionhouse or something similar, the kind of thing people asked about for years. Something that would make scamming far more difficult, even if it would subsequently diminish your income thanks to people abusing the current system?It´s not merely an issue with the Rivenmarket, but the entire trading system, the impact is simply higher with Rivens due to the incredible RNG that goes into them.

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13 minutes ago, ---PV---Sniga said:

Still a bit sad how the last Tactical Potato video is spreading massive misinformation, as he actually has 0 knowledge about barely any of the topics he said there, and newer players now took his word for law and are on a witch hunt for people from Riven Dealers, which actually have nothing to do with this. 

Did we see the same screenshots?? Was it not their clan leader who did all of this and even admitted it? Do private discords with trade tracker bots which people made tons of profit of not exist? What about that screenshot that was circulating with 13 million platinum on the account? Was that gotten through fair trade as well? Come on..

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Huh, well this will be interesting. I'm honestly a bit confused reading that. I don't like the idea of groups manipulating the trade chat (my understanding of what's been going on), but I've always liked that some people are willing to pay more for certain items. For example when a new prime weapon comes out that is top tier in terms of damage. How much people pay for that weapon changes drastically in a few days. I imagine the riven prices for that weapon also change drastically in those few days. 

So I'm wondering how that will be factored into all this. Seems like it depends on too many things for a reliable baseline. Some people are always willing to pay more, and a seller wants to best price obviously. An auction system would work out nicely I feel. But who knows, depends how it's implemented. 

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Wouldn't it be better to cut out the need to use 3rd party websites and programs for trading? I'm not talking about an auction house, but a "marketboard" where players would list their WTB, WTT and WTS offers and others could check it out and see all prices at one glance. The board would show online / offline status, a short note like "usually online around 9pm gmt+3" and the offers on the board would stay there as long as the player refreshes them once a week to avoid cluttering up from players who aren't actvie anymore. Everything else about trading would stay the same; we'd need to contact the other person, agree on price, setup the trade and so on. So basically warframe.market, but ingame.

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Hey, Reb.

Is there any news as to when Riven Slot limit will increase? I know it's server-sided stored data and all that, but 90/90 limitation is pretty harsh and I've been just deleting Rivens that I wasn't gonna use non-stop for 3 months for sorties. Would be nice to get it increased over time (was hoping it would happen with Fortuna, but oh well).

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Just now, Leyvonne said:

Wouldn't it be better to cut out the need to use 3rd party websites and programs for trading? I'm not talking about an auction house, but a "marketboard" where players would list their WTB, WTT and WTS offers and others could check it out and see all prices at one glance. The board would show online / offline status, a short note like "usually online around 9pm gmt+3" and the offers on the board would stay there as long as the player refreshes them once a week to avoid cluttering up from players who aren't actvie anymore. Everything else about trading would stay the same; we'd need to contact the other person, agree on price, setup the trade and so on. So basically warframe.market, but ingame.

This is kinda what the semlar trade bot did. It just showed you rivens that were listed and you could organize based on weapon or stat. This is the type of convenience trading should have. Not sitting in trade chat for 5 hours hoping you see something you like.I totally support an ingame market where people can list their stuff.

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Put in an auction house please. 

For some reason DE thinks an auction house will decrease Plat sales. I have not bought any plat since I avoid the trade chat. It's a horrible inefficient system that I do not wish to spend time on. Having an nice AH to looks at items to buy would tempt me for sure. 

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