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[DE]Rebecca

Riven Trading & Toolbuilders: Coming Changes

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6 hours ago, -cS-dalonico said:

just out of curiosity, how would such capability "destroy" the market? 

Casual players would never be able to buy a good/god riven, because people with the app would completely own them. All it would take is a few people and honestly all of them would go through the hands of a riven reseller. So long story short - more expensive, completely monopolized. 

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On 2019-03-08 at 5:51 PM, Sniga said:

Well, I, personally, think there is honestly nothing you can really do against people monopolizing that stuff. As Reb said herself, discussions for prices will still take place. I mean, at best they will give us more background data on trades for rivens. Maybe an average price this specific riven (regarding stats) was traded at? That still won't solve it. I buy something for 2k and sell it for 4k. Average is 3k, i can still negotiate down to 2k-2.5k and sell it for 4k. But I'm just speculating.

Either way - I am looking forward to see how this plays out. I don't mind a better system to help players.

I'm more focused on seeing that Tactical Potato gets some backlash from DE at least, as I have realised the community doesn't care or want to understand the situation.

I'm pretty sure saying stuff like "I'll still be able to take advantage of the system" and "I want TP to be punished" is why the community doesn't trust any of your explanations though

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Posted (edited)

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Edited by continue
the forum posted the same post twice. woops!
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hi can we have a bandage for it like a separate trad chat for rivens only so we dont have to go through the hell of looking for buyers and sellers of prime parts

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1 hour ago, GODStarKing said:

hi can we have a bandage for it like a separate trad chat for rivens only so we dont have to go through the hell of looking for buyers and sellers of prime parts

^This. I would also like an entire separate trade chat dedicated only for Riven Mods. It would be a very welcome addition.
Can't get Syndicate/mods/Prime parts without your post getting flooded out by "WTB/WTS Riven *insert name here*" within seconds.

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2 hours ago, continue said:

I'm pretty sure saying stuff like "I'll still be able to take advantage of the system" and "I want TP to be punished" is why the community doesn't trust any of your explanations though

I'm just trying to be honest with everyone. And you can always just camp trade chat and snipe manually anyway, no need for 3rd party tools. And yes, I still stick to my point of wanting TP to receive some sort of at least warning from DE. He did honestly spread misinformation due to his carelessness, and up to now he still does not care to fix his mistake. He literally ignores everything and bans anyone from his discord or twitch that says his video is wrong.. Is that the ignorant attitude you want in a Warframe Partner? I sure don't. I don't mind his other content, just that this was a big oopsie and he refuses to admit it.

The new site, by the way, which is https://10o.io/rivenpricer/ , is completely worthless. I can tell you as a semi-experienced Riven trader. 99% of the time it will just mislead you by showing "similar" rivens which can be completely different in terms of usefulness. Prices there are completely off and can be easily manipulated.

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Le 06/03/2019 à 15:45, [DE]Rebecca a dit :

As this review has unfolded, we want to experiment with applying a broader change that will prevent any individual market manipulation. This will also allow tool creators fair grounds to use clear and authorized sources of data that abides by all terms and policies.

Le 06/03/2019 à 15:49, KIREEK a dit :

My sugestion is to invest resources into black market dealers and alt accounts for storing rivens, because when high amounts of platinum and primed chamber are involved, there is an oddly coincidence with the black market and nuked accounts, but that's me.

What is spoiling Riven market right now is players who aren't really selling their own rivens at a decent price, they only buy & sell the cheapest ones they can find and thus are storing them. Market prices are completely out of control, when you check who's selling what, a few players are selling a huge portion of "hype" rivens, that's the only issue DE should take care of cause they only allow a few players to make profit out of a majority of honest people.

We don't need data analysis but effective measures such as trade number limit, only one exchange per unveiled riven for example, perhaps more between members of the same clan since we know that members of the same clan wouldn't try to rip off other members.

Let be real a second, this players are a real plague and letting them making such a profit when honest players are only trading what they found and unveiled themselves shouldn't be a thing. 

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38 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

What is spoiling Riven market right now is players who aren't really selling their own rivens at a decent price, they only buy & sell the cheapest ones they can find and thus are storing them. Market prices are completely out of control, when you check who's selling what, a few players are selling a huge portion of "hype" rivens, that's the only issue DE should take care of cause they only allow a few players to make profit out of a majority of honest people.

We don't need data analysis but effective measures such as trade number limit, only one exchange per unveiled riven for example, perhaps more between members of the same clan since we know that members of the same clan wouldn't try to rip off other members.

Let be real a second, this players are a real plague and letting them making such a profit when honest players are only trading what they found and unveiled themselves shouldn't be a thing. 

Quote

 

Going in to a trade with mentalities and statements such as:

  • "price is X"
  • "you are selling  it to cheap"
  • "you are selling for a value way to high"
  • "your budget is way to high, you shouldn't be buying X item for that much"

These are directly linked with poor trading conduct

 

Please, let players sell for they price they want, cheap or not.

Be concerned about your own game, if i want to sell cheap, i will sell cheap, like it or not.

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On 2019-03-11 at 3:40 AM, Sniga said:

Casual players would never be able to buy a good/god riven, because people with the app would completely own them. All it would take is a few people and honestly all of them would go through the hands of a riven reseller. So long story short - more expensive, completely monopolized. 

You mean exactly like how it works now?

Except at least with the change at least everyone would have access to the market data instead of just the horders who use private tracking bots (sometimes breaking ToS)?

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So, for those following along at home..

 

FacelessDealer: DID get Selmar banned,but did not S#&$ talk for the most part knowing people would be out for blood and he did change his name. However,his intent was half noble and half selfish. (Read Selmar)  This mainly had to do with Rivenhunters a paid for Ap. Not,Semlar overall.

 

Semlar:Made a paid for app which track riven power (Rivenhunter) and facelessdealer fear this could cause a market upset so went to DE about It.He never intended for a free app to go down. He did not S#&$ talk Selmar afterwards,that was a user using his name because Facelessdealer knew this would have people out for his blood. But,instead of manning up and defending himself he change his name which is why we are here. (Selmar is no angel in this story)

 

animeratgirl:After Faceless changed his name. They came in took his name memeing him and exposing that yes,he did in fact do It. (Must be a loki mine)

 

So,lets talk about rivens....They are poorly designed when you get down and think about It and the only reason we have a riven problem is because,you have to try a million times with oversized request like shooting 100 people in the head while in the air without being seen with a dragon hobble key on (This is real) and It will roll you some dumb crap for a weapon you dont even own with a mr of 3 ranks above you while a guy who kills 50 enemies get a super riven for the weapon he wants. It is a poorly made idea which is why anytype of riven market is even a thing. Because, after the 25 mod you open which is not for your favorite gun,you go hunting for It..Because your weapon does not a big enough riven summon chance or whatever. So,yeah I market will set up..I don't like the idea of most of the people in the riven market being buddies..But,what can you do..However,them all being hyper defenses and some of them being elitist does not help..But, I am gonna assume there are a few good kin in there and give them the BFD since you can play the game without rivens and also because while rivens are bullS#&$...(As stated) 

 

However, the free market is regulated IRL rather ya know It or not, Quitilty control, price control and so on..It is made to prevent chain stores from killing all the MA and Pa stores. So,stop using that excuse for all the wacky stuff ya do. Cause,that talking does not make people side with you all, It makes em hate you more. Maybe If you just said "Look I had to grind for days to make sure this riven was open then spent a crap ton of the red tears of the grind to make It prefect so,I kind of want my plats worth" People might be more inclined to be nice. (Because,who has not had..DAT MOD)

 

On a side note,some Riven traders do use semlar's free service version for pricing and other things..So,take that as you will.

 

I will say as I said before, we need a market place which is more then hands in the air. I know It is flaw in Its own way (People trading then trying to sell something at a higher price).. 

But,It is better then not having a choice but to be bogged down by pounds of trade chat logs when you know what you want and you cant find It. Cause, honestly most people just want a flat price or something for a set and don't wanna deal with the haggle crap.

 

 

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On 2019-03-09 at 4:06 AM, Sniga said:

I guess this is directed towards me.

I am not defending the "price gougers" , I'm telling people why this is a witch-hunt led by complete misinformation. And now because the misinformation was at the foundation of ALL this semlar drama, it has snowballed and basically turned away from the actual problem or RivenHunter to simply attacking people that have a hobby of dealing in rivens. We have become the scapegoat for every issue that's ever happened related to rivens. 

Aaaand again. The guy that called you insects was an impostor. You're just showing how little you know and care to think about it again. And again. And again. 

P.S. Price gouging wouldn't be the correct term here, rather profiteering. Price gouging refers to spiking a price of basic survival necessities, most commonly after a shock in supply. I don't think Rivens are a basic survival necessity.

Priceless. You keep focusing on semantics, while missing the actual point. The difference between a "price gouger" and a "profiteer" only exists in the head of someone who wouldn't mind engaging in such a thing themselves. To the honest average Joe you are still an unethical middleman who would try to take away as much coin as you can from a person trying to buy something they desire.

Likewise, peoples' problem with you is not with your instance of getting Semlar banned, it's with you having the audacity to decide whether or not a tool/service should be available to the community. Your justification for it can be anything you want (fyi, I'm not buying your story that you really thought it would hurt the community, and I basically consider every single word you say to be a carefully manufactured lie, but that's beside the point), you were in no way elected or empowered by the community to make such a decision, and you didn't even try to get community's input on it, you just decided that you have the right to stop it because you thought your judgement here is good enough and the whole community would have to accept it.

See, this problem isn't by any means intrinsic to Warframe, it exists in every laissez faire free market, from an average bazaar to the crypto industry: random people gain wealth, and then start converting that wealth into power, gaining unelected influence over the community. In your case you did not convert wealth to power directly, but a) DE indirectly profits from your machinations, however marginally, the more plat people are having to pay for rivens, the more plat they'll be buying; and b) you rising to a position to manipulate the market made you think you can now make decisions instead of the entire community. You are not being scapegoated, you are facing a backlash for your actions. You don't have to agree with this, because your agreement is irrelevant. Human race has always viewed market manipulators as a bad thing, and has always fought back against them.

Now, the most ironic thing here is you don't really understanding the implications of what you're doing. DE has practically refused to classify your actions as hostile to the community (whether it's because they indirectly benefit from it or for any other reason, I don't know), and also shunned the people trying to dispense "mob justice" onto you (and I could also get into discussion about semantics here, on how if you "profiteering" from riven trade isn't price gouging because you're not jacking up prices of vital resources, then too, the harassment you're experiencing is neither "mob justice" nor "witch hunt", because there are no actual ropes, gallows or pyres involved, but that's also beside the point). Do you see the construct here? DE creates a system where you can do your thing, you do your thing, and then also start exercising power over community you don't deserve, community gets mad and you get backlash. Of all of these things DE addresses only the backlash part. They don't mention them being responsible for letting this happen, nor them not noticing what was happening, nor you doing it for your own gain, and only notices community backlash. I'm not judging DE here, I'm just laying this down: DE made it very clear that they would like to let you get away with what you were doing in spite of community's dismay. And barring overwhelming pressure from the community (which has already failed to materialize), DE will let you get away with zero repercussions, basically encouraging you to keep "profiteering".

And you know what? That's what was going to happen. Hell, that's still what's going to happen. Community has an attention span of a goldfish, so they'll forget that they wanted you punished, and DE won't remind them. So the smart thing for you to do would be to go away, not post, lay low, rub your palms and keep "profiteering". But no, your ego won't permit it. You have to relentlessly "damage control", replying to every post about you, because you're so sure that you're actually entitled to "profiteering" and deciding instead of the community what tools the community gets to use.

Do you see what you're doing? Because you're doing exactly what every "profiteer" has done to the system they were "profiteering" from. You continuing to brazenly highlight yourself only underscores that the regulator of this financial system (DE in this case) is not willing to punish you. And you know what that does? It decreases the community's trust in the regulator, and in the system as a whole. You're reinforcing a lasting impression on the community that trade here is rigged to enable "profiteers", and that will create a sense of unease in regular buyers. They will feel distrustful towards the people they're buying from, and towards DE. They won't be mad enough to actually revolt, but they will remember this every time they're unhappy with DE.

Sure, here you can just say that you don't have to care for the long term health of this market, and that you're technically not breaking any rules by profiteering or by being responsible for erosion of trust in the system because of your unethical practices, and you'd be right. You're not the ones that should care. DE is. And it's baffling to me that they apparently either don't care for these implications, or just don't believe in them. So.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Their product, their community, their policies. If they think "profiteers" have a place in it, then all we honest members can do is choose whether or not we want to have a place in such a system.

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12 hours ago, Helleborr said:

 

First, I would like to address the idea of mob justice and witch hunts.

Yes, it is a thing. No there is no gallows and rope, water testing, rock crushing or Judas' cradles about, this is besides the point. I recently got in an argument with my friend over this business. He explained that 'the entire clan should be disbanded' and Faceless should be banned permanently from the game because of 'Faceless' comments (of which he did not do).

There are several players that frequent the forums, but there are even more that don't traverse here or even know it exists to begin with. Far more people watch youtube and only that.

Witch hunts and smear campaigns are extremely damaging, especially in the Twitter courts of today.

Tater's video has done some damage in regards to Faceless' reputation, whether you like them or not. It wasn't Faceless making rude comments, but alas, the damage is done and dusted. These blokes still receive trash and smack talk from loads of people.

Why is that? Because they caught a snippet of the whole story. Some people don't even know that Semlar was attempting to sell a $5 app. A very expensive app I might add, in terms of how much the average app costs sans game specifics and their add-ons/MTX. Which, of course, against the rules.

Does this mean I hate Semlar? No. Do I hate Faceless for reporting him? No. Do I play on PC? No again, but youtube is a proverbial bridge between the platforms.

Do I think Faceless should be punished from reporting Semlar's $5 app? No. Why is that? Because the only person in this situation that has breached the rules is Semlar.

If we move from that and tackle the 'market cornering' and . . . human tendencies towards monopolies. The market here in Warframe is controlled. Yes indeed but not by Faceless and his dastardly crew of capatalist cronies, but rather DE themselves. How is that?

DE sets the value of Platinum. It is a hard cap depending on the platform and coupons and what not, but it is there.

If we are talking trade between two players it is rather simple, Jack and John we'll call them.

Scenario: Jack has a part (mod or otherwise) that John desires. Jack has offered to sell this to John at $5000 (or 5k platinum). John swiftly, but tactfully declines this offer, as is his right to do so.

The reason why John declined the offer is because John knows the set value of $5000. How? Because he earned it. In the case of purchased platinum, the same can be said. John goes to work, makes money and spends said money on platinum. Thus, John is aware of how much money he has spent on platinum.

If, however, John has spent $0 and has earned his platinum through trading with other players, John has still earned it. John is aware, in both how much time he has spent trading and only he places the value on his time. If his time is precious, the cost of platinum in his mind goes up but only for John. John decides if that sweet, sweet Kraken riven is defintely 5000p (it's easily worth triple). John decides if he wants to trade or not want to trade.

The reason why arguments for regulating the market are poor is because the simple fact is Warframe's platinum is absolutely impossible to NOT know the value of platinum, purchased or otherwise traded for.

The arguments are mainly geared for newer players and 'protecting' them from sharks. Yes, I get that, however, the only way John would obtain 5000 platinum is through purchasing it, which if we ring up both the Prime accessories and access we get a little over 5000 (under?) at around 130USD. If John trades all 5000, he is aware of how much real money he has spent on it. Personally, I wouldn't trade for any riven set at 1k+ that needs re-rolling (-damage against faction is not god roll, it is trash and needs to be rolled again) but I digress.

DE sets the cost of Platinum, through deals made through them, and solely them. The cost of platinum can be increased or decreased by DE and DE only. The very idea that players inside their game has any control whatsoever is a massive stretch. Thousands of thousands of players play this game everyday.

Do I endorse goosing players by goading them into bad deals? No. Selling or trading stuff outside the game? No. 'Selling' coupons? No.

If anything, I want players to find a fair deal between eachother and walk away happy. Is ammo case worth 100p? No. So that's where I fall. Players need to decide for themselves if they'll be happy with their purchase.

But if players play the game using the tools available to them, they cannot be blamed for the rules set in place.

Here's a thought on market control: Prisma Grinlok, Tipedo Prime, Stradavar Prime etc.

Literally overnight, DE snapped their fingers and said "Whatever happened to coptering? Wasn't that a thing back in the day? Yeah, let's do that" and made the Tipedo rivens crash into the ceiling compared to what they were. The same about the Grinlok, whom nobody cared about. And by nobody, I mean the riven market. It flows and can snap back.

Just because it appears that people can control the market, doesn't mean they do. The very idea that DE needs to set the price for rivens is a bad one. At no offense to DE, they happily nerfed my beloved Viper and Twin Vipers rivens, yet kept the blank and the blank rivens untouched because "people rely on them to achieve 100% blank" which tells me a bit how their riven pricing would go.

If anything were to change, I would want DE to explain the market better to newer players, explain rivens in more detail in-game, put the riven disposition in the stats after the second dream quest . . . there is lots they could do, but trying to say someone is evil incarnadine because they play Marketfarm(tm) and not Warfarm is a bit silly.

If you really have an issue with players in this game, then look no further than the real giants around you that absolutely crush the market down around your ears so hard you go blind and deaf. The products you buy, the food you eat, the stores you visit . . . someone, somewhere is always making money and the people trading in warfarm are the least of my concerns.

But hey, what do I know? I like the Kraken so no one needs to listen to an absolute mad lad such as I.

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4 hours ago, (PS4)Multi-Melta said:

 

You get into a lot of irrelevant and obvious detail, but you keep missing the point. There's always a letter of the law, and the spirit of the law, everything else is semantics. Faceless, his entire clan, and anyone outside of their clan who engaged in "profiteering" must be punished if DE wants players to retain trust in the system. I don't know if DE wants it or not, I'm just saying that if they want it, that's what they should have done. I'm working on an assumption that DE doesn't want to harm its own game.

Comments don't matter, price of plat doesn't matter. Someone buying something with sole intent of reselling it at a much higher price is and has always been viewed by community negatively, because their actions are tantamount to stealing the price difference they put onto the item they're reselling. It's not an honest effort, and it goes against the spirit of free market which is to let people FAIRLY trade directly without interference, not to let resellers hoard profit. Yes, a perception of what is and isn't fair differs person to person, but there's a statistical average, and on that statistical average people who make profit by reselling are universally viewed as parasites (and let's not forget how those guys also thought they can start deciding instead of the community what tools they can and can't use).

You keep bashing Semlar for wanting to sell his useful tool for $5 but don't you see a discrepancy between how that's against the rules "because he's making profit off it", but people accumulating hundreds and possibly thousands of dollars in plat by reselling rivens they didn't farm/unveil/reroll is somehow not against the rules? 🙂

Markets are regulated in real life, because if such practices are allowed, people will lose trust in the market and its regulator. And if you don't see why that's gonna have catastrophic consequences, just wait and see. 😉

This isn't my opinion, this is just how things work. Mob justice is just a symptom, the disease is that people already don't trust DE to do right by them. Mob justice doesn't happen when people trust government/regulator/law enforcement to do its job.

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On 2019-03-16 at 6:35 AM, Helleborr said:

 

Punishing players for using the mechanics given to them by DE themselves? This is beyond outrageous. The end result of punishing the players that trade using the rules DE has laid out would be catastrophic.

You talk of trust and honor and other platitudes. How's this scenario? It will play out exactly thus:

DE does exactly as you ask. It punishes players for playing the game the way they set it up in addition to changing the rules.

Hypothetically: DE can change the rules at any time, as they see fit, when they want to and show they can rewrite their rules and punish those that 'broke' these new rules when the new rules didn't exist at the time, regardless if the old rules allowed it. New players would undoubtedly hear from the youtube masses that DE bans players for playing the game. Youtube being youtube and Twitter being the public court of opinion these days would cripple DE and Warframe.

How, you ask? I'll explain in a few simple steps.

 

1) Players and non-players boycott DE and Warframe and stop playing entirely. They tell their friends, followers, family, co-workers that DE 'bans players for playing the game. Regardless whether or not that is what happened exactly, those are the optics. This will see a constant stream of negative opinions and possibly necro certain past topics and suspicions.

 

2) New players will be ostrasized by older players that have since stopped playing the game, putting potential playing customers off entirely. New players will inevitably ask older players this question: "What happened?" and will immediately be directed to point 1. This will happen, it does happen and to pretend it does not happen is a 'risky move' or a 'dangerous transaction'.

 

3) Players that remain will be reluctant to operate within the trading economy. Many players will not spend money on platinum to trade, the riven market will evaporate faster than spilt gasoline in Death Valley and the ingame market will see a sharp decline in sales and revenue.

Due to the very fact that, as stated above, 'DE bans player for playing the game' will forever stick in the back of the minds of the players, platinum sales will decrease, not 'might decrease' or 'maybe decrease'. Why invest time and money in a game that can remove you at any time for any reason whatsoever? Does it matter if this isn't necessarily true? No. It does not.

Any youtuber that covers gaming news, such as skillup, Laymengaming, Yongyea, Sterling and a string of articles and hit pieces from Kotaku and other such will pollute the airwaves in the extreme. The truth will be muddied and there will be no recovery.

 

4) DE has a parent. It might be ludicrous, but they do. It's a chicken . . . company, or rather it was at one point in time, but I digress. Their parent essentially decides what happens in the grand scheme of things. They may not have any hand in the game at all, but if money stops rolling in, suits get anxiety and with that anxiety the chopping block is wheeled out into the town square.

If we follow the scenario explained above, they will excise Warframe as a non-viable product. This, of course may take years but if they deem the machine unfit and it is costing them more than they pull then it will get axed. It's a harsh thing, business, but harsh and viscious it be.

 

This is exactly how your idea will play out. It won't be pretty and it will not smooth over any easier. Just as there are as many people that would agree with your plan disagree with it, myself included in the latter grouping. Perhaps DE grasp this fact and have played out these scenarios? Regardless of what actually happened, people will see the youtube videos and decide that is the truth.

You yourself have decided that Faceless was not impersonated at all. You demand an apology and label others that question 'damage control'. Would you change your opinion if he was indeed impersonated? Or would you still maintain that the traders need to be 'punished'.

Because if they are punished by DE, they will receive the above scenario. It may or may not happen exactly as laid out, but it will happen in some form or another.

I strongly advise against such an action, as punishing a group for something someone else (whom may have been impersonated) said sows distrust amongst the player base, especially when this individual reported someone who was attempting to use their IP to generate profit, which is against the rules. Playing the game the way it is should not be a punishable offense, and punishing groups that have nothing to do with a situation caused by select persons is a bad idea. 

You will the group and beyond to be punished for the sole reason that they trade in massive quantities, regardless of who they are or how they behave. How 'bout some fiction?

. . . "The police knocked on the door early in the morning (or late in the evening depending how one might count the first hour of the day). They told me to exit my home and promptly arrested me. I was quite startled, I can assure you. What's more was that the police did not arrest just myself, but I saw mister O'Doule (my noisy upstairs neighbor) being escorted down the stairs in handcuffs and shouting expletives which promptly awarded him a sharp clap on the ear.

Across the hall was Ms. Oats or the widdowed Mrs. Oats. Being 83 and living alone was a sad and humbling thought. Her children rarely visited her . . . child. I forgot to mention her son perished in some argument on a bridge or some wrong deal of some sort, I can no longer recall. The police too, wrest her from her home and arrested her as well. I was quite perplexed and was most sure this was a most curious dream.

The police methodically moved along the halls and the stairways, barging in rather rudely to those homes that didn't answer the knocks whether they were occupied or not, creating a ruined state of several of the doors. This performence went on for quite some time. I would surmise it to be around an hour or two, well, maybe not the longest of times but as it was very early in the morning and refused rest and was ordered to remain standing time seems to stretch the more the mind wanders I suppose.

Anyways, they rounded up a nice collection. I stifled a chuckle as they hauled Barry Gorrbins around. He was an absolute terror, the brat. Much too heavy for his age (he was supposedly nine, but I wouldn't know for certain) and would bully everyone else with his wailing when he did not get what he wanted at that moment in time. He spray painted my door with a rather crude shape of parts that don't belong on doors last Summer.

But after stifling that chuckle of mine, I came to a realization which was much like plunging one's self into zero temperature water and my mind was then very much awake.

Everyone in the building (who was there at the time anyways) including the children and Carlson (poor bloke was blind and missing his left arm at the shoulder) was detained. I was then very well aware of the grooves the handcuffs were diligantly working into my wrists.

We were then marched from the building to awaiting buses, to take us to the station I had presumed (incorrectly I might add, as prison was the answer, not police station).

A very dry and distressed voice, which I didn't realize was mine at the time, asked the question "Why are we being arrested?" several officers looked at me and I suddenly had the urge to vomit. It was as if I was a deer in a cave of lions and I had disturbed a rock. "You're all being arrested for the homicide of one Mrs. Gibbons" Mrs. Gibbons was the wife (well, I suppose it's rather obvious) of Mr. Gibbons. A foul fellow with a violent streak about him. The police were summoned multiple times to their residence for domestic disturbances, but to no avail. Despite not knowing the man or woman personally, but since I happened to live in the same building as the couple it was but enough to charge us all with murder. They had proof, so there was no need for a trial at all." . . .

 

This is a work of fiction, of which I spent 20 minutes on, while extreme the same basic principles apply

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