Elite weeklies should be extra credit, not requirements for standard completion.

[Deadoon]

7k from dailies, 21k from standards, 15k from elites. Total 43k per week. 28k without elites. 300k to get the standard set of rewards.

In the current system elite rewards are a requirement to for successfully finishing the nightwave reward table, if one considers the 10 week cycle claimed.  You need to average 30k a week to get to tier 30, which means that elites aren't "elite" anymore they are part of the standard requirements to complete the basics. The whole concept of "elite" challenges is that they are supposed to be difficult, but not required to complete.

 

Suggestion: add 3-4 more  weekly challenges or increase the value of the current ones, and make elites directly give wolf credits. This means that elites are rewarding in their own way, but progression is not locked behind absurd and inconsistent challenges.

[Lance_Lionroar]

I fail to see how the challenges are absurd or inconsistent. And there's no one forcing you to do all of them, you can miss quite a few that you feel you're unable to do and still get the 300k you need.

[Ragingwasabi]

8 minutes ago, Lance_Lionroar said:

I fail to see how the challenges are absurd or inconsistent. 

some challenges take what? 15 mins? another one takes an entire hour.

 

[Ragingwasabi]

42 minutes ago, Deadoon said:

7k from dailies, 21k from standards, 15k from elites. Total 43k per week. 28k without elites. 300k to get the standard set of rewards.

In the current system elite rewards are a requirement to for successfully finishing the nightwave reward table, if one considers the 10 week cycle claimed.  You need to average 30k a week to get to tier 30, which means that elites aren't "elite" anymore they are part of the standard requirements to complete the basics. The whole concept of "elite" challenges is that they are supposed to be difficult, but not required to complete.

 

Suggestion: add 3-4 more  weekly challenges or increase the value of the current ones, and make elites directly give wolf credits. This means that elites are rewarding in their own way, but progression is not locked behind absurd and inconsistent challenges.

u can miss out 60% of standing and still reach 30. so i disagree they need to add more challenges, tho it wouldnt hurt. more important definitely fix consistency of the the challenges. most of the other elite weekly dont take anywhere near an hour to finish. and they especially dont require u to do it all in 1 session. the 1 hr survivals needs to be decreased to 30 mins max

Edited March 6, 2019 by Ragingwasabi

[Deadoon]

32 minutes ago, Lance_Lionroar said:

I fail to see how the challenges are absurd or inconsistent. And there's no one forcing you to do all of them, you can miss quite a few that you feel you're unable to do and still get the 300k you need.

You need to do most of them to be able to get the rewards, you can afford to only skip a few of them due to how tight it is. And you Must complete elites in order to get rank 30. 3 rounds of eso or 100 eximus kills is nothing in comparison to the survival requirements, the Hydrolyst or otherwise even the ayatan one is more difficult and rng dependant. 

19 minutes ago, Ragingwasabi said:

u can miss out 60% of standing and still reach 30. so i disagree they need to add more challenges, tho it wouldnt hurt. more important definitely fix consistency of the the challenges. most of the other elite weekly dont take anywhere near an hour to finish. and they especially dont require u to do it all in 1 session. the 1 hr survivals needs to be decreased to 30 mins max

You need 60-65% of the standing to be able to get rank 30. Additionally 10 weeks is the expected, 28k/week is only 280k for the 10 weeks. 300k is 69% of 430k.

Literally nothing you said was correct, and also type proper English please.

 

I am saying decrease the number of elites and replace them with standards to compensate, or increase the value of standards and give elites their own reward, which you missed.

[Kontrollo]

If you really want to lecture others about math like that (and no, I'm not saying they did it right):

We know that the stated goal so far is 60-65% without fugitives, and the time will be ten-ish weeks. If the percentages are correct, the timespan doesn't even matter, because they will make it as long as necessary to fit the percentages:

43k total in a week, 28k you can get from dailies and normal weeklies.

• 43'000 * 60% = 25'800
• 43'000 * 65% = 27'950

=> If the stated percentages are correct, you don't need any of the elite challenges if you do all the others.

 

Also:

• You still have some leeway through fugitives. If you encounter one group a day, that's another ~70+ * 150 = ~10k
• Rewards at the end of it are mostly cosmetic, anyway. Personal opinion: the really big one is at level 25.
• Have you seen that Captura reward? There's probably more to come. Myself, I'm hoping for some kind of finale to close it out.

 

[Deadoon]

4 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

If you really want to lecture others about math like that (and no, I'm not saying they did it right):

We know that the stated goal so far is 60-65% without fugitives, and the time will be ten-ish weeks. If the percentages are correct, the timespan doesn't even matter, because they will make it as long as necessary to fit the percentages:

43k total in a week, 28k you can get from dailies and normal weeklies.

• 43'000 * 60% = 25'800
• 43'000 * 65% = 27'950

=> If the stated percentages are correct, you don't need any of the elite challenges if you do all the others.

 

Also:

• You still have some leeway through fugitives. If you encounter one group a day, that's another ~70+ * 150 = ~10k
• Rewards at the end of it are mostly cosmetic, anyway. Personal opinion: the really big one is at level 25.
• Have you seen that Captura reward? There's probably more to come. Myself, I'm hoping for some kind of finale to close it out.

 

60-65% of challenges need to be completed you mean(misquoted him on that, sorry). If by mostly cosmetic you mean putting a unique gameplay affecting item at rank 29 and touting prestiging for more credits after hitting 30. 

I'm not lecturing about math so much as stating that the way they have it set up is that you have a total of 17 challenges a week, and 3 of those account for for 35% of the standing. The concept of "elite" is beyond the average players capacity that is acceptable and understandable. But gating uniques behind something designed to be not completed by the average player is a different matter.

[SordidDreams]

2 hours ago, Deadoon said:

make elites directly give wolf credits

I agree with everything except this. Making elites give creds is just an additional kick in the teeth to newbies, who need creds the most and can't do elites, while not doing much for veterans who can but don't really care about creds since they already have most of the offerings anyway.

Edited March 7, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Kontrollo]

3 minutes ago, Deadoon said:

60-65% of challenges need to be completed you mean(misquoted him on that, sorry). If by mostly cosmetic you mean putting a unique gameplay affecting item at rank 29 and touting prestiging for more credits after hitting 30.

Yes, that's why I said mostly cosmetic. There's also a 3 pack of Forma at 27, which is worth 35 plat.

It's just one Umbra Forma, I have all but one Warframe, however (two if you count Excalibur Prime). Not to mention melee weapons literally in the hundreds. Right now it's a gimmick for me, and I'm definitely not going to max out my remaining Umbra mods just because of that reward.

Now compare that again to the level 25 reward.

And even if it is challenges and exactly ten weeks (without fugitives or any extra standing in any form): You'd need exactly four elite challenges to reach 30. One of which we've seen already was a Sortie like this week, the elite part being you'd have to do it with a friend or clanmate. And this week's easy one was 3 individual rounds of ESO.

 

10 minutes ago, Deadoon said:

I'm not lecturing about math so much as stating that the way they have it set up is that you have a total of 17 challenges a week, and 3 of those account for for 35% of the standing.

56 minutes ago, Deadoon said:

Literally nothing you said was correct, and also type proper English please.

Might want to change your tone, then.

 

 

[Deadoon]

10 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Might want to change your tone, then.

As someone who goes on many forums, I would say that even 4chan has much better English skills than that. Their first sentence was false info. Their second was a mess that could be interpreted as a disagreement into agreement with my idea followed by a contradiction.

Also; in a game where that is at it's core a loot collection game with some people who run solo self found or simply have a solo clan for the research, some of the challenges go against some of the ideas that have been a point of the community for a long time. They are in the process of fixing that, but these issues should have been seen before the update even came out.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

If ur a solo player and don't interact with anyone, then ur not part if the community are you?

[Deadoon]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

If ur a solo player and don't interact with anyone, then ur not part if the community are you?

Then why is it that games have entire special modes for players like that? Runescape has ironman, Poe has literally solo self found, and it has been a classic playstyle for alt accounts in many games. There are even people in warframe which make "solo clans" and such, they interact with the rest of the community but they play by themselves and progress through their effort alone. People solo eidolons, orbs and more.

They are as much a part of the community as you or I, but they are specifically targeted as undesirable by some of the mechanisms in place in nightwave right now. 

[Knoxturnal]

5 hours ago, Deadoon said:

The concept of "elite" is beyond the average players capacity that is acceptable and understandable. But gating uniques behind something designed to be not completed by the average player is a different matter. 

It can be argued that an umbral forma is an elite part of Warframe. What average player is going to know what it even is or if they do, how to use it wisely? What average player is going to have the 80,000+ endo and 4m credits to max 2 mods to even make an umbral forma worth it for them? Even then, on most frames you can slot 2 umbral mods in using regular forma and have your build work perfectly fine. Lastly (not speaking directly to you, more of a rhetorical question), if you're an average player, and want an umbral forma to beef up your frame to do the starchart, what is even the point?

 

Nothing in this reward table is something you NEED to do anything in this game. Especially if you're still mapping out your starchart. Even if you only hit 24 before it ends, it's not like these rewards won't be back into the loot table at some point. Everything comes back.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Knoxturnal

[Lance_Lionroar]

9 hours ago, Ragingwasabi said:

some challenges take what? 15 mins? another one takes an entire hour.

 

I still don't see how that's inconsistent. It's not like there's a guideline somewhere that says all challenges have to be within the same ballpark of completion time, and an hour is still reasonable considering most players can spare that much time per day, and you've got a week to do it.

 

8 hours ago, Deadoon said:

You need to do most of them to be able to get the rewards, you can afford to only skip a few of them due to how tight it is. And you Must complete elites in order to get rank 30. 3 rounds of eso or 100 eximus kills is nothing in comparison to the survival requirements, the Hydrolyst or otherwise even the ayatan one is more difficult and rng dependant. 

Considering you already get 28k per week without them, and you need 30k per week for max rank (you're only 2k short), and you can play catch-up later if you miss the first few weeks, you can definitely afford to skip more than a few of them.

Here's what I think: You found this challenge too demanding, yet you felt obligated to do it, so you want it removed from progression for everyone. My opinion is that, a lot of the players don't find the challenge demanding, and if you personally can't do the challenge (whether because it's too hard for you, or you can't afford to play for an hour straight throughout the week), then it's okay to not do it and you won't miss out on much.

Asking for it to be removed for everyone just because you personally can't (or won't) do it, while the majority of us can AND it's not even obligatory just doesn't make much sense.

[Deadoon]

4 hours ago, Knoxturnal said:

It can be argued that an umbral forma is an elite part of Warframe. What average player is going to know what it even is or if they do, how to use it wisely? What average player is going to have the 80,000+ endo and 4m credits to max 2 mods to even make an umbral forma worth it for them? Even then, on most frames you can slot 2 umbral mods in using regular forma and have your build work perfectly fine. Lastly (not speaking directly to you, more of a rhetorical question), if you're an average player, and want an umbral forma to beef up your frame to do the starchart, what is even the point?

 

Nothing in this reward table is something you NEED to do anything in this game. Especially if you're still mapping out your starchart. Even if you only hit 24 before it ends, it's not like these rewards won't be back into the loot table at some point. Everything comes back.

"Everything comes back" Primed chamber? A handful given out since it's original incarnation as a trophy item? 

Besides that, putting missable uniques in a seasonal drop table like this says that you should be able to attain them within the allotted time. As it is, the setup is poorly thought out.

2 hours ago, Lance_Lionroar said:

Here's what I think: You found this challenge too demanding, yet you felt obligated to do it, so you want it removed from progression for everyone. My opinion is that, a lot of the players don't find the challenge demanding, and if you personally can't do the challenge (whether because it's too hard for you, or you can't afford to play for an hour straight throughout the week), then it's okay to not do it and you won't miss out on much.

Asking for it to be removed for everyone just because you personally can't (or won't) do it, while the majority of us can AND it's not even obligatory just doesn't make much sense.

This is what people call projecting.

 

Edited March 7, 2019 by Deadoon
post too soon

[breakdafunk]

13 hours ago, Deadoon said:

(...) The whole concept of "elite" challenges is that they are supposed to be difficult, but not required to complete..

According to?

The elite challenges are whatever the Devs decide them to be.

[breakdafunk]

9 hours ago, Deadoon said:

Then why is it that games have entire special modes for players like that? Runescape has ironman, Poe has literally solo self found, and it has been a classic playstyle for alt accounts in many games. There are even people in warframe which make "solo clans" and such, they interact with the rest of the community but they play by themselves and progress through their effort alone. People solo eidolons, orbs and more.

They are as much a part of the community as you or I, but they are specifically targeted as undesirable by some of the mechanisms in place in nightwave right now. 

I play solo and have no problems completing all of the Nightwave challenges during the first 2 days after the weekly reset.

Time spent would amount to something like ~2h each day - total 4h playtime. I really don't understand what is so hard about this event, especially that you have a whole week to complete each "stage".

Edit: To suggest that I, as a solo player, feel "specifically targeted as undesirable by some of the mechanisms..." sounds pretty funny.

Edited March 7, 2019 by breakdafunk

[Tsukinoki]

I really don't see how Elite Weeklies are "required", considering that you only need to do four across the 10 week period.
Do the "Sortie with Friends", the "3 Waves of ESO" and 2 more stupidly easy challenges and guess what?  You don't need to touch elite weeklies until the next nightwave!

Further you're not counting the spawns from fugitives at all.  If you add those in over 10 weeks all you need to capture is 10 fugitives a week (so only 4 groups appears or less than one group per day) and you've bagged another 6K standing, meaning that you only need to do three elite weeklies in the entire 10 week period.

But lets go a little bit further, shall we?
Lets say you play once a day and get one fugitive spawn per day.
That is 150 standing per day, or 1050 per week.  Over 10 weeks that is 10,500 standing, or 2 elite weeklies....meaning that if you've done the "3 waves of ESO" this week and "1 sortie with a friend" last week you're completely done with elite weeklies!

How about a little further though?  While still being 100% realistic.
Lets say you get 2 fugitive groups per day, which is completely realistic with their spawn rates and can easily happen doing plains bounties or tridolons where 2 to 3 groups will spawn in a single mission.
That's 300 standing per day, or 2100 per week.  Over 10 weeks that is 21,000 standing, or 4 elite weeklies....meaning that if you can get average 2 fugitive groups per day then you don't have do any elite weekly missions at all!  After all, you're getting 28K of standing per week, over 10 weeks that is 280K, plus the 21K from the fugitives and hey, you're done without having to touch the elite weeklies in any way, shape, or form, and without having to grind and grind and play an unrealistic amount due to how the fugitives aren't that rare of a spawn.

So, can you please tell me how the elite weeklies are "required" to hit rank 30?
As far as I can see the elite weeklies let you hit 30 faster...but you'll hit 30 even if you never touch them at all as long as you actually play the game and run across 2 common spawns per day, which really isn't asking much.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Tsukinoki

[Steel_Rook]

12 hours ago, Deadoon said:

60-65% of challenges need to be completed you mean(misquoted him on that, sorry). If by mostly cosmetic you mean putting a unique gameplay affecting item at rank 29 and touting prestiging for more credits after hitting 30. 

The problem with Steve's post is "60-65% of challenges" is a meaningless statement without an explanation of what he's counting and how he's counting them. Challenges don't have equal weights, just doing 65% of them by volume can mean vastly different things. You get 17 challenges per week. 65% of that is a little over 11, so let's just say 11. That means you miss out on 6. If you missed out on 6 of the dailies, then you're still looking at 37K standing and more than enough to hit level 30 (which would be 30K standing per week). If, however, you missed all three Elite Weeklies (like I did) and three of the Weeklies, then you're looking at 19K standing, which is far less than you need to hit 30.

If we're talking about 60-65% of standing, then Steve is flatout wrong. A week offers 43K standing, with 30K standing per week required to hit level 30. You need just shy of 70% of all standing, in other words, not 60-65%. This is significant, because Elite Weeklies constitute just a bit over 35% of all standing, meaning missing just them already deprives you of a shot at level 30. My suspicion is what Steve was actually talking about was the 65% of all standing left after missing all the Elite Weeklies, but I can't be sure because that post is ambiguous.

The reason I keep bringing this up around the forums is people like to chant "60-65%!" like they're praying to Cthulhu when it might not mean what you're quoting it to mean. Please be careful when throwing around numbers.

 

41 minutes ago, breakdafunk said:

I play solo and have no problems completing all of the Nightwave challenges during the first 2 days after the weekly reset.

I'd be very curious to hear how you completed the "with friends" achievements solo. That's quite the accomplishment right there.

 

On topic:
I agree with the OP's broad strokes - the Elite Weekly challenges are weighed FAR too heavily in the current incarnation of the Nightwave system. My guess is someone tried to ascribe values to each challenge individually, but ignored context entirely. People who complete Daily challenges might be unwilling or incapable of completing Weeklies and especially Elite Weeklies, but it's safe to assume that people who complete the Elite Weeklies will likely also complete the Weeklies and most of the dailies. As such, I'd argue that Elite Weeklies need to be valued as a supplement for someone who has all the other challenges and so have their rewards slashed substantially. I'd argue the same with the Weeklies, as well.

Let me put it another way - all Challenges should reward the same amount of Standing - 1000. The basis would be Dailies, with Weeklies valued as a supplement to Dailies and Elite Weeklies as supplement to everything else. That means a really casual player might get 7000 points, a less casual one might get 14 000 and an "elite" player ight earn 17 000. Granted, that also means that the total amount of points needed to level up ought to be decreased, as well - I'd recommend down to 3000-4000 per Wold Rank - though that's not likely to happen until the next season's economy is planned.

[breakdafunk]

5 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I'd be very curious to hear how you completed the "with friends" achievements solo. That's quite the accomplishment right there.

I just added a random "friend" for that particular challenge but I think you knew the answer even before asking this pointless question.

I play solo but it does not mean that I am some kind of a crazy person that cannot play a 1h challenge with other people. It also doesn't mean that I feel undesirable, unwanted or *insert some other exaggeration* if an online game wants me to group up for one or two challenges during a week. Especially when the rewards are, in my opinion, worth the effort.

[Vox_Preliator]

"They shouldn't be required."

Here's a secret:  THEY. AREN'T.

Even if you never touch even the relatively easy Elites you'll end up in the upper twenties after ten weeks, plus standing from Fugitives.  Add to that that the estimation was "ten-ish" and "10-11" weeks and the requirements are even more lax.

[Steel_Rook]

21 minutes ago, breakdafunk said:

I play solo but it does not mean that I am some kind of a crazy person that cannot play a 1h challenge with other people. It also doesn't mean that I feel undesirable, unwanted or *insert some other exaggeration* if an online game wants me to group up for one or two challenges during a week. Especially when the rewards are, in my opinion, worth the effort.

It was a simple joke, because yes - I knew the answer to the question. That's a LOT of projection did there, though, over a one-sentence question which neither stated nor implied any of the stuff you decided to deny.

 

11 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

"They shouldn't be required."

Here's a secret:  THEY. AREN'T.

Be that as it may, Elite Weeklies are still weighed disproportionately heavily. They may not be theoretically required if we assume DE's statements are wrong or subject to reinterpretation, but I'd go further and argue that they shouldn't be incentivised nearly as heavily as they currently are. Incentivise the median, leave the low and high ends as under-incentivised alternatives.

[breakdafunk]

1 minute ago, Steel_Rook said:

It was a simple joke, because yes - I knew the answer to the question. That's a LOT of projection did there, though, over a one-sentence question which neither stated nor implied any of the stuff you decided to deny.

It was directly connected to what the OP said about solo players in order to strengthen his argument. It was a weak statement that you seemed to support.

[Lance_Lionroar]

3 hours ago, Deadoon said:

This is what people call projecting.

Great retort.

I did say "the majority of us", so I was actually referring to myself among the players who find the elite challenges easy and have no problem doing them, but whatever floats your boat.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Lance_Lionroar
Typo

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, breakdafunk said:

It was directly connected to what the OP said about solo players in order to strengthen his argument. It was a weak statement that you seemed to support.

My apologies. It really was a silly joke I threw in among other points. I'm a solo player myself. To this day, I've played Warframe either solo or with people I know from outside the game, and the only time I've played with pubbies has been whenever someone accidentally forgot to switch their matchmaking stats.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Steel_Rook