We need to talk, DE.

[KaizergidorahXi]

9 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

Do you know how flight surfaces work? I'm guessing not. It takes air a shorter time to pass over the top of a flight surface, than it does the bottom side of it.

This is what generates lift.

Here's the excerpt: Bernoulli's principle: Bernoulli's principle helps explain that an aircraft can achieve lift because of the shape of its wings. They are shaped so that that air flows faster over the top of the wing and slower underneath. Fast moving air equals low air pressure while slow moving air equals high air pressure.

 

What is zephyr's body covered with? Flight surfaces. What does she control? Wind. What is necessary for flight? Wind.  Controls wind.....has flight surfaces....nope can't see her flying makes no sense.

 

Yes, this is sarcasm. Not mean sarcasm mind you, but sarcasm nonetheless. Something that can cntrol wind can easily manipulate said wind over the flight surfaces to generate lift, just like it does with tailwind.

 

Edit: Wings are flight surfaces.

Flight surfaces or not, Zephyr is not a BIRD frame, she is a WIND frame. She is based on a concept made by a Warframe fan (Liger Inuzuka) for a WIND ELEMENTAL frame, not a bird frame. The concept art is readily availible online, and has at the top "ZEPHYR: WIND ELEMENTAL FRAME". A WIND frame, that doesn't necessarily fly. 

Edited March 7, 2019 by KaizergidorahXi

[seprent]

1 minute ago, ObviousLee said:

Do you know how flight surfaces work? I'm guessing not. It takes air a shorter time to pass over the top of a flight surface, than it does the bottom side of it.

This is what generates lift.

Here's the excerpt: Bernoulli's principle: Bernoulli's principle helps explain that an aircraft can achieve lift because of the shape of its wings. They are shaped so that that air flows faster over the top of the wing and slower underneath. Fast moving air equals low air pressure while slow moving air equals high air pressure.

 

What is zephyr's body covered with? Flight surfaces. What does she control? Wind. What is necessary for flight? Wind.  Controls wind.....has flight surfaces....nope can't see her flying makes no sense.

 

Yes, this is sarcasm. Not mean sarcasm mind you, but sarcasm nonetheless. Something that can cntrol wind can easily manipulate said wind over the flight surfaces to generate lift, just like it does with tailwind.

we play a game where we are children/teens given void magic powers that are poison to a race of living machines and control murderous equally void magic puppets that can take one whole armies or planets (inaros) i think your reaching a bit to close to reality on how things should work in a video game just my 2 cents granted i get the same way with cooking in video games sometimes it just doesn't make sense i get really worked up about it then i remember it doesn't always need to make sense in real life and move on with my day 

[InDueTime-EN-]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

:15-:25  sure sounds like flight to me, even the Lotus says she supposed to fly... Yet 

That is a better argument. 

 

But then again, if they update that video.. and her abilities stay the same. 

 

1st ability = warframe jumps in a the direction that your facing at great speeds and deals damage to enemies. Secondary : Allows her to hover.

2nd ability = creates a burst of wind in front of her that damages enemies.

3rd ability = creates a wind shield that deflects bullets

4th ability = creates tornadoes.

None of these indicate that she should be able to fly. 

 

 

[ObviousLee]

Just now, KaizergidorahXi said:

Flight surfaces or not, Zephyr is not a BIRD frame, she is a WIND frame. She is based on a concept made by a warframe fan for a WIND ELEMENTAL frame, not a bird frame. The concept art is readily availible online, and has at the top "ZEPHYR: WIND ELEMENTAL FRAME". 

might wanna watch the zephyr profile video on page 3 as it clearly states her abilities are to set her into flight. That came directly from DE, not the original concept that DE decided to claim and own.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

9 minutes ago, InDueTime-EN- said:

That is a better argument. 

 

But then again, if they update that video.. and her abilities stay the same. 

 

1st ability = warframe jumps in a the direction that your facing at great speeds and deals damage to enemies. Secondary : Allows her to hover.

2nd ability = creates a burst of wind in front of her that damages enemies.

3rd ability = creates a wind shield that deflects bullets

4th ability = creates tornadoes.

None of these indicate that she should be able to fly. 

 

 

Then you need to change the way her aesthetic looks as well. Because currently it does suggest flight. If Zephyr is supposed to be a air bender type then that would be the proper aesthetic that should be used and not the current aesthetic. 

Edited March 7, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[-Krism-]

8 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

What a wonderful bout of input.

 

I have to agree with them, you posted a ten pages article because Hildryn can hover with highly restricted movements, but Zephyr can only dash at high speed without real interruption.

Again, as others said, Zephyr's design was wind, not flight. Why does she look like a bird then? She was released in 2014, the devs couldn't design frames like what we have now.

Hildryn first concept was Iron-man. But Iron-man can't steal shields! So what? Why does Valkyr have a whip then, cats don't have whips as a part of their body right? Why can Volt create a shield, his theme is electricity no?

Because one or two abilities differ from the original concept doesn't mean it's bullsh*t, so don't talk about it like it was the end of the world.

[KaizergidorahXi]

Just now, ObviousLee said:

might wanna watch the zephyr profile video on page 3 as it clearly states her abilities are to set her into flight. That came directly from DE, not the original concept that DE decided to claim and own.

Warframe profile videos, especially old ones, are promotional videos that are known for making frames seem more powerful than they are. Volt being a "Potent alternative to Gunplay" comes to mind. I'm sure there are other examples. Now, I love Zephyr to death but a warframe that can truly fly and NOT shrink like Titania to allow access into tight corridors would be incredibly hard to control and not smash into walls like she does right now. maybe that's why she cannot.

[InDueTime-EN-]

9 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

Bernoulli's principle helps explain that an aircraft can achieve lift because of the shape of its wings

Don't see no wings on Zephyr.

9 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

What is zephyr's body covered with?

Aerodynamic Surfaces. Cars have em to keep them on the ground and Zephyr has them to help her stay afloat for longer. 
 

10 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

Do you know how flight surfaces work? I'm guessing not. It takes air a shorter time to pass over the top of a flight surface, than it does the bottom side of it.

Saying that birbs control wind to fly is like saying that fish control water to swim or we control land to walk. 

Wind, water, and land are the platforms in which their movement are based on. 

They do not have control over it. 

[ObviousLee]

Just now, Xenox_Ilz-ot said:

I have to agree with them, you posted a ten pages article because Hildryn can hover with highly restricted movements, but Zephyr can only dash at high speed without real interruption.

Again, as others said, Zephyr's design was wind, not flight. Why does she look like a bird then? She was released in 2014, the devs couldn't design frames like what we have now.

Hildryn first concept was Iron-man. But Iron-man can't steal shields! So what? Why does Valkyr have a whip then, cats don't have whips as a part of their body right? Why can Volt create a shield, his theme is electricity no?

Because one or two abilities differ from the original concept doesn't mean it's bullsh*t, so don't talk about it like it was the end of the world.

I posted an article because a warframe that is centered around flight and mobility as declared by the developers themselves in her damned profile video cannot do the things they say in her damned profile video to the extent that other frames CAN that do NOT share her thematics and visual representation. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

I don't want Titania Nerfed or her flight taken away. I don't want Hyldrin to not have flight either. What I DO want is the one frame that already has everything needed in the mechanic FOR FLIGHT to be able to actually do so.

Everything is as I said, already there. It need only be slightly rearranged and then everyone will benefit instead of the minor few who've grown accustomed to sitting in the air like a turkey till they roll away.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 minute ago, InDueTime-EN- said:

Don't see no wings on Zephyr.

Looks at her Prime forearms that extend feathers when airborne... 

[InDueTime-EN-]

38 minutes ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

Then you need to change the way her aesthetic looks as well. Because it does suggest flight. If Zephyr is supposed to be a air bender then that would be the proper aesthetic that should  be used.  

Well, in that case, let's also change Oberon because he don't look like any paladin I've seen. Mag doesn't specifically look like a magnet, and Excalibur is not a sword. 

Her Aesthetics support her theme. She doesn't have to look like a fan or a gust of wind to have these abilities. 

I mean Revenant is supposed to be a vampire, looks like a sentient. And sand daddy Inaros is suppose to be a mummy, controls sand. 

34 minutes ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

Looks at her Prime forearms that extend feathers when airborne...

Ever seen a bird fly with 10 feathers? 

Edited March 7, 2019 by InDueTime-EN-

[ObviousLee]

1 minute ago, InDueTime-EN- said:

Don't see no wings on Zephyr.

Aerodynamic Surfaces. Cars have em to keep them on the ground and Zephyr has them to help her stay afloat for longer. 
 

Saying that birbs control wind to fly is like saying that fish control water to swim or we control land to walk. 

Wind, water, and land are the platforms in which their movement are based on. 

They do not have control over it. 

You're the one making the claim of birb, not me. So that's a nice little strawman.

I'm saying I know how avionics work because I've actually worked in the freaking field. ZEPHYR, does CONTROL the wind. Zephyr, has flight surfaces. Something that can control the wind can control how much or little is going over the flight surfaces that cover the things body.

Do. You. Understand?

[ObviousLee]

6 minutes ago, KaizergidorahXi said:

Warframe profile videos, especially old ones, are promotional videos that are known for making frames seem more powerful than they are. Volt being a "Potent alternative to Gunplay" comes to mind. I'm sure there are other examples. Now, I love Zephyr to death but a warframe that can truly fly and NOT shrink like Titania to allow access into tight corridors would be incredibly hard to control and not smash into walls like she does right now. maybe that's why she cannot.

reread the op after the edit. My tailwind rework suggestion completely mitigates your justifiable fears of indoor cramped flight.

[Ascarith]

Physics aside, I'm fine with Zephyr not having full free flight. They opted to give that to Titania so that ship has probably sailed.

At this point, I would just settle for DE revisiting Tailwind, because that is one mess of an ability. I think we really need to have better control over how far, and what direction, Zephyr is going. So maybe pseudo-flight. Or some kind of better (and faster/more mobile) aim glide.

I'm tired of constantly crashing into walls, getting stuck in corners, getting stuck on random lips/ledges on tilesets (this causes problems for non-Zephyr frames too), and Tailwinding into the ground (and getting stuck smearing my face in the dirt until my duration runs out...so like 100m?) because my downward angle didn't quite register as a Divebomb. The passive really doesn't help when you get snagged on something, because not only do you not get to go anywhere during Tailwind, you also then take forever to get back to the ground.

[Rant about her passive in spoiler...not terribly constructive]

Spoiler

From a physics perspective I don't even understand how that passive works. She is clearly not made of pure oxium (i.e. lighter than air) else she couldn't stay on the ground. But she also doesn't get blown around like a tumbleweed when she's on the ground, so why suddenly is she super floaty when she jumps (but only on a vertical axis?). Honestly, I don't want to be floaty at all most of the time. If you wind up anywhere above where you need to be, it takes forever to get back down. You can slightly mitigate it with aim glide (to avoid going to high), but if you mess up your timing then you're either too high or too low. Divebomb and ground slam have long recover animations which make them annoying options as well (and also occasionally murder random animals in the Vallis as you were trying to get a better vantage point, making you listen to The Business berate you as being on safari. Sorry man (and R.I.P. animal), I was just trying to...not float.). 

I dunno, she's aerodynamic (presumably), so just let me move faster in the air? Probably impossible, since this game's air resistance is crazy (except, apparently, when you have overshot your target in Tailwind, and then it does nothing while you fly a million miles in the wrong direction). Yes, a lot of this rant is technically user error, but I think it's fair to say there are very few options to recover from said errors.

The hover was an interesting idea (and now somewhat co-opted by Hyldrinn by the looks of things), but the fact that both height and duration are tied to the charge time makes it difficult to use. Good luck trying to get a good hover duration anywhere with a ceiling (particularly annoying in PoE/Vallis caves, since +duration is so good for the outdoor parts of PoE/Vallis). Trying to get an otherwise unreachable mining node in a PoE cave (old mining system) really drove this home for me. I was super excited that this was going to be a super niche way that hover was actually useful...until I realized unless the node is perfectly places, you're either going to be short on duration or way too high up. 😞

The tricky part is going to be keeping what makes Tailwind great (+duration on the open tile sets) while making it more user friendly in the rest of the content. And I don't really know what that should look like. I'm just good at complaining...

Edited March 7, 2019 by Ascarith

[ObviousLee]

2 minutes ago, Ascarith said:

Physics aside, I'm fine with Zephyr not having full free flight. They opted to give that to Titania so that ship has probably sailed.

At this point, I would just settle for DE revisiting Tailwind, because that is one mess of an ability. I think we really need to have better control over how far, and what direction, Zephyr is going. So maybe pseudo-flight. Or some kind of better (and faster/more mobile) aim glide.

I'm tired of constantly crashing into walls, getting stuck in corners, getting stuck on random lips/ledges on tilesets (this causes problems for non-Zephyr frames too), and Tailwinding into the ground (and getting stuck smearing my face in the dirt until my duration runs out...so like 100m?) because my downward angle didn't quite register as a Divebomb. The passive really doesn't help when you get snagged on something, because not only do you not get to go anywhere during Tailwind, you also then take forever to get back to the ground.

[Rant about her passive in spoiler...not terribly constructive]

  Reveal hidden contents

From a physics perspective I don't even understand how that passive works. She is clearly not made of pure oxium (i.e. lighter than air) else she couldn't stay on the ground. But she also doesn't get blown around like a tumbleweed when she's on the ground, so why suddenly is she super floaty when she jumps (but only on a vertical axis?). Honestly, I don't want to be floaty at all most of the time. If you wind up anywhere above where you need to be, it takes forever to get back down. You can slightly mitigate it with aim glide (to avoid going to high), but if you mess up your timing then you're either too high or too low. Divebomb and ground slam have long recover animations which make them annoying options as well (and also occasionally murder random animals in the Vallis as you were trying to get a better vantage point, making you listen to The Business berate you as being on safari. Sorry man (and R.I.P. animal), I was just trying to...not float.). 

I dunno, she's aerodynamic (presumably), so just let me move faster in the air? Probably impossible, since this game's air resistance is crazy (except, apparently, when you have overshot your target in Tailwind, and then it does nothing while you fly a million miles in the wrong direction). Yes, a lot of this rant is technically user error, but I think it's fair to say there are very few options to recover from said errors.

The hover was an interesting idea (and now somewhat co-opted by Hyldrinn by the looks of things), but the fact that both height and duration are tied to the charge time makes it difficult to use. Good luck trying to get a good hover duration anywhere with a ceiling (particularly annoying in PoE/Vallis caves, since +duration is so good for the outdoor parts of PoE/Vallis). Trying to get an otherwise unreachable mining node in a PoE cave (old mining system) really drove this home for me. I was super excited that this was going to be a super niche way that hover was actually useful...until I realized unless the node is perfectly places, you're either going to be short on duration or way too high up. 😞

The tricky part is going to be keeping what makes Tailwind great (+duration on the open tile sets) while making it more user friendly in the rest of the content. And I don't really know what that should look like. I'm just good at complaining...

If you haven't done so already, please take a gander at the section of my op that highlights tailwinds issues and my suggestions on how to fix them, and then let me know if my suggestion addresses your concerns?

[InDueTime-EN-]

 

21 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

You're the one making the claim of birb, not me. So that's a nice little strawman.

What's a strawman? but anyway : 

21 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

Do. You. Understand?

I understand. She can, but that doesn't mean she is required to. She doesn't need to fly, because that's not the focus of her abilities. Flight is not necessary for her. 

 

Her flight surfaces could've developed to allow her more control over the wind. Since warframes were humans before, her abilities could have started as control over wind and her form change to amplify and streamline that control. She just didn't developed the ability to fly because maybe she did not see the need to. Maybe she just preferred the burst of speed that she gets rather than sustained flight. Speculations of course, but it is just there to emphasize that Zephyr was not designed around being able to fly.  

Planes were designed to fly, chickens weren't. Not all vehicles can fly, and most bird can. Zephyr, may not have been designed to fly. 

[InDueTime-EN-]

Wait! I want Zephyr to fly. I just don't like the fact that you are using Hildryn for context. 

[ObviousLee]

Just now, InDueTime-EN- said:

 

What's a strawman? but anyway : 

I understand. She can, but that doesn't mean she is required to. She doesn't need to fly, because that's not the focus of her abilities. Flight is not necessary for her. 

 

Her flight surfaces could've developed to allow her more control over the wind. Since warframes were humans before, her abilities could have started as control over wind and her form change to amplify and streamline that control. She just didn't developed the ability to fly because maybe she did not see the need to. Maybe she just preferred the burst of speed that she gets rather than sustained flight. Speculations of course, but it is just there to emphasize that Zephyr was not designed around being able to fly.  

Planes were designed to fly, chickens weren't. Not all vehicles can fly, and most bird can. Zephyr, may not have been designed to fly. 

See, this is a more reasonable counter-argument. You may very well be right in that she may have never been intended to fly on the developers side of things. That's not something I can actually argue against as I haven't heard from them directly on the matter, hence the entire point of this post: get enough attention to catch their eyes.

And to answer your question about what a strawman is, here: Debaters invoke a straw man when they put forth an argument—usually something extreme or easy to argue against—that they know their opponent doesn't support. You put forth a straw man because you know it will be easy for you to knock down or discredit. It's a way of misrepresenting your opponent's position.

 

[ObviousLee]

@InDueTime-EN- essentially your strawman was arguing that since she's not a bird she doesn't need to fly, which is an argument I never made.

[InDueTime-EN-]

5 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

And to answer your question about what a strawman is, here: Debaters invoke a straw man when they put forth an argument—usually something extreme or easy to argue against—that they know their opponent doesn't support. You put forth a straw man because you know it will be easy for you to knock down or discredit. It's a way of misrepresenting your opponent's position.

 

I see. Thanks. 

[ObviousLee]

Just now, InDueTime-EN- said:

I see. Thanks. 

No worries.

In the event I gave anyone the notion of being less than polite towards them, I'd like to take this moment to apologize. i'm a sarcastic person by nature, and although I'm not prone to anger, when one feels that they must explain "the same thing" over and over again, it does tend to shorten fuses. So in that regard, I do humbly apologize to anyone who got the notion of rude behavior aimed at them.

 

This thread is just an attempt to shed some light on something that bothers me as a warframe player, a gamer, and a person in general.

[Zeclem]

2 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

My overall point is that there are inconsistencies that occur and it bothers me immensely when I'm seeing what I perceive to be blatantly ignoring a frame.

I'm open to the possiblity I'm entirely wrong in DE's motivations, and I'm hoping that I am indeed incorrect.

What I want is their reasoning why they've made a frames number one mobility skill subjectively worse and have given any mechanics that could have gone to fixing this borked system to not one but two separate warframes. I just wanna know why, from their mouths.

theres no "inconsistency", you are just salty for no good reason whatsoever. zephyr isnt "blatantly ignored". she just got a rework not too long ago. and "subjectively"? what? her 1 got much better lol

[ObviousLee]

Just now, Zeclem said:

theres no "inconsistency", you are just salty for no good reason whatsoever. zephyr isnt "blatantly ignored". she just got a rework not too long ago. and "subjectively"? what? her 1 got much better lol

You find animation locks tied to duration that are inescapable to be "better"?

You find being defenseless until the animation is over to be better?

You find an utterly unuseable augment to be better?

You find charging for the sole benefit of being a sitting duck unless you roll or melee or recast the ability which costs you the ability to hover, better?

Do you have any actual counter argument to bring forth? This thread is riddled with valid counter arguments against the notion. Yours? Yours amounts to about as much as the dude who quoted me with "lol u mad bro".

[SerphV]

I love Zephy... but shouldnt true flight happen in an open area?

Planes and Chopper take flight in runway and pads in an open area.. like how Zephy does in plains...

Being able to hover in small area doesnt fit the idea of flight?

Just IMO

[ObviousLee]

Just now, SerphV said:

I love Zephy... but shouldnt true flight happen in an open area?

Planes and Chopper take flight in runway and pads in an open area.. like how Zephy does in plains...

Being able to hover in small area doesnt fit the idea of flight?

Just IMO

I'm glad you, like myself adore  Zephyr. So, the question I ask of you is this: After reading my suggestion on alterations for tailwind, would you agree or disagree that it would be a massive upgrade to her as a whole?