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[DE]Danielle

Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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Could you consider changing all the weapon types, so that they perform quick melee attacks when no stance mod is equipped? This would let players be in control over the type of attacks they do, and it makes perfect sense - quick melee combos are essentially a type of stance, or a lack of stance.

The downside of this would be that players would lose mod capacity... An alternative idea would be to have a "Quick Melee" stance mod as a common mod that everybody starts with, and make it equippable on all weapon types. Players should be able to choose whether they want to use, e.g. Quick Melee stance, Crimson Dervish stance, Iron Phoenix stance, etc. on their sword.

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Posted (edited)

Devteam,

  I tried out the new changes - while the intention is well, it's execution leaves something to be desired. When players kept asking for quick switching, I do not quite think this is what they had in mind. Having to remember that aiming instantly makes me pull out my gun even though I've bound my left mouse button to melee is significantly more troublesome than how I had it before phase 1's deployment. When fighting level 120 ancient nullifiers, I do not have time to try to keep switching weapons and trying to figure things out in the heat of combat.

One of the absolute first things you're taught as a fighter in any martial art is to retain control of your weapon. We know that in combat, the most important aspect of a fighter is not the weapon, but the mind. This is what extensive training and the like is about - coaches in sports, for instance, can tell when a person's off because of their lack of coordination. To be an effective fighter, one must be able to execute their judgments on command, almost like a machine. This is what war is, instinct against instinct, training against training. A soldier is trained to almost fight like a machine, this is what made the roman legions so effective and have had such a profound impact on Western European and subsequently, global civilization, as a whole. Incessant drilling led to one pretty much becoming a war machine.

Now, let's take your system you have created here. When going toe-to-toe with the enemy, you may want to throw a star or two at an enemy while in combat with someone else. I want you to visualize what I write to you as I say it. In front of you are three guys who can do a lot of pain to you as you can to them, W, X and Y. A fourth, we'll call him Z, is about 10 meters away from you. Engage the three of them with your blade. You've taken one down and have done a roll away from the remaining two, X and Y, to throw stars at Z who is just out of your reach. Let's say you can move at superhuman speeds and you decide to keep Z busy with some kunai in his face, then get back to finishing off X and Y. Your natural move is to temporarily half-holster your melee weapon and quickly throw stars at Z, then pull your blade out again to get back to the melee fighting, right? Now, you've been trained in your martial arts school that your stars are in your left hip pouch, so mechanically, you'll reach in there and throw them at Z, then finish off X and Y in CQC. End visualization.

I've said all of this to highlight my main point: your combat effectiveness is determined by your ability to bring weapons to bear at the specific point of battle to execute your training upon the adversary. The current system, as it is, is very detrimental to furball (a term used by pilots referring to large aerial engagements). In this horde shooter/looter that you've created, this system can be very detrimental to overall user experience. What your players are really lamenting is loss of control. Control is the key phrase here - my ability to do what I wish when I wish it as such. When I'm in combat, I need to be able to shoot when I want to and to block and melee when I need to. Aiming's override of blocking encourages slothfulness and dissonance in my mental conditioning. I need to "feel" my actions upon the enemy. This feedback is what grounds me and helps me to overcome my enemies - I am able to exercise granular control over my movements. Automatic blocking takes away from this because I am not telling my avatar to block, it's doing it on its own - this gives me a serious sense of loss of control of my character.

Unlike many of your other players who mostly just shoot with a few quick melee's here and there, I've been doing it all just as you've shown in the trailers - shoot, melee, wall run, roll, groundslam, aerial or ground slide attack, I do it all, I easily chain all of these movements to take out the enemy. I've been doing this for years because I can control my movemements. I've highlighted the preceding words to form the basis of my writings concerning this update. Again, I control movement. My body, my mind, my actions. Let these words be the mindset in which you hear my words. It has been said by ancient warriors that to become one with your blade is the highest ideal. The blade becomes an extension of body. Bruce Lee spoke about his body and said that his movements were an expression of self. To truly make an excellent melee overhaul, your chief goal in all of your undertakings must be player control. This is why we're doing away with locked combos - endowing the player with the ability to control themselves is necessary for enjoyment, for freedom of self-expression.

To retain effective control of arms, I need to be able to switch to the weapon I want for this specific situation. Let's say I have an amprex and my Kavat wants some fried Grineer. I need to quickly break off my Bleeding Willow combo and whip out my amprex, shock some, throw some corrosive-tipped kunai to soften up some heavy gunners, then get back into it. As I said before, I need those neural pathways and the ability to exercise them with a very high degree of control. The best way for me to do that as an effective warrior would be for me to quickly switch to the specific weapon I need on the fly. How can I do this? I need to be able to equip the weapon I want with the press of a key. I've been doing this for years and I challenge you guys to try this out there at the studios as well. Before Phase I, I had "equip melee" bound to my 'V' key, and I could switch to and between primary and secondary weapons bound to my 'F' key. I was able to manually block as I needed and aim when I wanted.  This is how I'm able to do things very many of your players cannot do.

This is what I want you guys to do there at the studios - create for yourselves the same control scheme as mine, except use whatever keys are most comfortable for you to use to control your primary/secondary switching and melee equip key. Retain the instant swapping speeds you have now across all weaponry. 'E' remains quick melee, but does not necessarily put you into full melee mode. I want you to go toe-to-toe with the enemy - you cannot hang back and spam powers and shoot, very many of your inflicted casualties must be melee terminations with a good mix of ranged kills - these fights must take place in tight quarters. You'll find that being able to switch weapons on the fly is most important in such situations as this.

My suggestions for this update are as follows: players are able to equip and switch between ranged weapons with the press of a key while they can equip full melee with a specific button. The M 2.9997 features as follows are optional: aim switches to gun while in melee mode, quick melee transitions to full melee, blocking is automatic in melee mode.  The new features available are simply there as additional options to help players streamline their combat experience according to their tastes.

Edited by Mach25
Grammatical errors
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Honestly you know what I'd like?

Revert the weapon switching shenanigans, but while you're in Full Melee Mode, your Quick Melee button becomes Quick Shot. You shoot your gun, then put it away again, just like Quick Melee is a quick melee attack and then your melee is put away again. That's something I'd use all the time, without compromising existing controls. Quick Melee didn't DO anything in Full Melee, so make it Quick Shot instead. Then you can be Gun with the option for smoothly weaving in a melee, or a Melee and smoothly working in a gunshot.

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I remember hearing about or reading about an addition to melee 3.0 that would make visual effects match with your weapon's actual swing range. Is that still in the works? One of the phases of melee 3.0 is supposed to be a range re-balancing, so I'm assuming this change would come around then, but I wanted to be sure that this is a feature we're still supposed to be getting.

For now, I'm definitely enjoying the new vfx and the quick swapping system. While I understand some of the concerns of the community regarding the guard button, I'm also aware that a full-scale combo rework is coming, which should (hopefully) provide a working solution to those complaints. Fantastic job so far!

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29 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Honestly you know what I'd like?

Revert the weapon switching shenanigans, but while you're in Full Melee Mode, your Quick Melee button becomes Quick Shot. You shoot your gun, then put it away again, just like Quick Melee is a quick melee attack and then your melee is put away again. That's something I'd use all the time, without compromising existing controls. Quick Melee didn't DO anything in Full Melee, so make it Quick Shot instead. Then you can be Gun with the option for smoothly weaving in a melee, or a Melee and smoothly working in a gunshot.

That is absolutely awesome, this fits combat brilliantly! This is exactly right! If I could, I'd give you gold, but there's no option for that here.

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Posted (edited)

My entire warframe setup is based on taking damage, without the option to disable automatic blocking I cannot play warframe the way I have enjoyed it for years.....

Every person i've showed the Rage + life strike combo loves it, but thanks to channelling while automatic blocking its dead in the water right now.

I know whats mentioned in the devstream isn't set in stone but I feel mislead as it was specifically mentioned "melee 2.9997 will only add the switching mechanics" what does switching have to do with blocking exactly?

Edited by TrigrH
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Posted (edited)

A media bonus entailing my and Delta's posts. Enjoy a bit of action. Skip to about 1:43 to get right to the main point - or not and simply enjoy some good action.

 

 

Edited by Mach25
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I've spent more time with it, and have warmed up to things considerably.
I also found a way around a silly mouse issue that was holding me back from getting the most of this update.

First off, I want to apologize for being as rash as I was about this update.
You could say it was too close to me. I have synapses forming around aspects of the old style.
Perhaps I also expected DE to be able to read my mind on what I expected the changes meant.
Going forward, I hope to be more reasonable and judicious in my assessments by sticking to details, and (hopefully) not becoming so empassioned.


  The did not break Vaykor Sydon! I was relieved to see they made a work around for it.
It's pretty good, too. You get to keep the stacks now without keeping block held, and release the charge with channel.
That is solid! Thank you DE.
  Electromagnetic Shielding - I'm probably the one crazy person that made use of this mod.
(Understandable that this one mod not hold up the entire process.)
This will need work.
  It's good to see that syndicate functions on melees are all still well and intact, as far as I can tell at the moment.
Also, I expect some odd no-stance builds, at the very least for Orthos Prime and similar weapons.

There's still jank when you do certain aerial attacks and land.
No inputs are accepted for a short duration. (around 0.7 seconds or so, a number I'm guessing at.)
I can't consider this rework complete without that fix.
Been hoping for that to change for a really really long time, and there's just nothing for it, yet.
Please, consider that stall after landing forward/neutral style aerial attacks in future revision.
It doesn't happen on ground slam attacks, which are considerably smoother,
which were always fine I thought.

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well they said that they'd listen to the players on this, so as a player (a long term one at that) I love the game, and I'm always down to see the next thing D.E. throws at us. But taking away melee mode broke something in the feel of the game that kept bringing me back to warframe. I love the new FX and the ground slams. but I really miss the proper melee mode right now, so if this is the direction that the game is taking, that's fine. but could you please at least add an option to re-enable classic melee mode. 

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This thread is getting pretty long, so this post might not be seen, but I have a small suggestion if you're reading this.

Given that you've already put together a custom reticle for melee mode, could you make it change color or indicate in some way if your next attack will be a slam attack? By this I mean, if you're in the air and you aim down enough, perhaps the reticle could change to a red color or something? At the moment I find it difficult to tell whether I will do a slam attack or just an aerial attack, when I'm trying to do more distant slams. I feel like this would be fairly quick and easy to implement.

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Who the hell even asked for a melee system change? It was fine before and it worked.

What I want?

-Quick Melee

-Manual Blocking

-Hold "F" to swap to melee, none of this auto equip bullspit.

DE, re-implement these post-haste. This new system isn't good at all and it takes away from melee more than it adds to it.

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I gotta admit, the attitude of 'gotta crack a few eggs' and 'it'll take some time to get used to' expressed by some people on the dev team is kinda... worrying. Like, it makes me worry that our early concerns are gonna be written off as 'Oh it's just because it's new' or something, and we'll just have to sit and deal with it.

And then when they look at it a month or two down the line they don't see any complaining anymore because complaining didn't DO anything so it stopped, and then people pat themselves on the back for being 'right' about people getting used to it. The truth of the matter is that mankind can get used to living on the south pole, it doesn't make it good real-estate.

I'm not saying this IS what's going to or is happening, it's just a deep concern.

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This is what needs to happen:

Control options added to toggle between old/new Melee system aspects.

Melee Style: [Melee 2.0]* [Melee 3.0]

*(Hold to equip melee/Manual blocking/Blocking aim-glide/Quick melee)

Because I know many people like the new changes, but I don't. I don't care if they like it or not. It ruins the game for me, the flow, and the enjoyment I had. I know I am not the only one. If you are going to force these kind of unwanted changes down the throats of your loyal players then you better give us the choice to use what we like and what feels good, not take away our toys and force us to play the way you want us to.

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Posted (edited)

(I accidentally responded to this when I've said what needs to be said. Forum doesn't let you delete stuff).

Edited by Maxim_M_Payne

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Posted (edited)

24.4.3 Bug: Using Aim (right-click) during a Melee combo causes the Gun to be re-equipped.

Replication:

  1. Begin mashing Melee.
  2. Tap (do not hold) Aim (right-click) during the combo
  3. Complete a few combo sequences.
  4. Gun will be equipped when the last animation plays.

This should not be the function. The melee weapon should remain out if Aim is used as part of a combo.

From a programming stand the "Switch Weapon" function you're calling shouldn't triggered and be put in the animation queue IF a Melee animation is in progress. It should only trigger if no melee attack is running. You should also look at a grace period so it doesn't trigger and get queued mid combo. Aim should only trigger "Switch Weapon" once a Warframe has come to complete Melee rest. No more Melee animations in the queue.

Frankly this wouldn't be a problem if Aim was actually Manual Bock when Melee was equipped and did not return to Guns. As I accidentally posted in the Main Feedback.

Spoiler

 

And as I said there, a "Dramatic Draw" which uses the full un-holster melee weapon animation (with those lovely custom positions we paid for), should be added to HOLDing down Switch Weapon (as you could do in Melee 2.0). When "Dramatic Draw" is done the user in a Full Melee mode. Left-Click melee attack. Right-Click Block. Tap "Switch Weapon" to return to Guns. Maybe turn "Melee Attack" into "Quick shot" in this mode as well.

I still do not have a solution to accessing the old Quick Melee attacks and animations under your new system. I am still thinking on this. If you could explain your working ideas for the Melee Combo system in the rest of Melee 3.0 perhaps something will suggest itself to the Community-Group-Mind... you had talked about more dynamic combos that are less button mashing memorization.

Edited by Brasten

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DE,

I have one additional plea.

I used to have quick melee on the same button as melee channeling: mouse thumb.

Now I use the "use attack input for melee" (or what it's called) to continue being able to switch to melee with thumb mouse and then attack with left mouse button.

However I can't map channeling to the same button.

Solution: just allow that. A double mapped button would cause a channeled melee attack, and further holding that button while using LMB does further channeled melee attacks.

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4 hours ago, TrigrH said:

My entire warframe setup is based on taking damage, without the option to disable automatic blocking I cannot play warframe the way I have enjoyed it for years.....

Every person i've showed the Rage + life strike combo loves it, but thanks to channelling while automatic blocking its dead in the water right now.

I know whats mentioned in the devstream isn't set in stone but I feel mislead as it was specifically mentioned "melee 2.9997 will only add the switching mechanics" what does switching have to do with blocking exactly?

I think automatic blocking would be an option very easy to implement.

Takes away the option to quick scope though. But as I said in a nother post - they just need to remove the delay with conventional weapon switching and you could have more dynamic weapon switch too.

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Posted (edited)

The only thing I'm really heavily against is the auto-blocking.

I mostly play as Garuda and enjoy melee. Since I cannot decide anymore when to block (for example: I see an enemy making a specific movement and switch to blocking, to prevent taking the full blow or I stepped on an Orokin pressure plate) I get hit more often. Even in my tested low level-maps on earth and void that was obvious and somehow I don't even want to try it out in the Plains/higher level areas. Where troops and turrets fire from 100+ meters away. It appears to me that the automatic block not only has a certain angle that is necessary for it to work, but also a certain distance. Pre-update, even when I blocked a frontal attack, if I'd see an enemy swooping in from the side, I'd decide to keep up the block, turn slightly, re-adjust and then continue the brawl. Now I have to stare at my reticle and hope that I get the right angle instead of intuitively turn and aim. So thanks, but no thanks to this downgrade.

In bigger maps, where I can't see where the attack is coming from exactly, I can't protect myself against it. Previously, I needed to turn myself towards the aproximate area and it'd work and help me locate my target. I'd love to switch to that "if you only have a melee equipped, you can manual block"-solution DE provided, but I can't or rather I'd like to stick to my much liked playstyle. My standard weapons are my talons after all and I prefer to continue to use them.

The second gripe with this not really working autoblock is, that the combat doesn't feel as interactive anymore. Observing the enemy, watching out for their moves, calculating how many hits I might get in safely, before I need to block, working out a strategy... *shrugs* Well, that's a thrilling thing that's gone now. 
It's totally fine if people see a huge relief in this new function. Feel free and enjoy. All we're asking for is a toggle.

P.S.Just in case I forgot to mention how it feels, seeing an attack closing in on ya and having to hope that the automatic-block works, instead of having the security that it  will... It doesn't feel good! Previously, as long as I could see it, I could time my block and count on it, no matter the distance.

P.P.S. Just tried out the Razorback fight... Heck I've never taken that much damage from Bursas, Hyenas and the likes. NOT fun. One can not always directly look at a target, but rather turn their character towards the direction.
 

Edited by Silescere
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Posted (edited)

Keep it simple:

  • 24.4.0 Mechanics enhances players who prefer Guns-Centric Gameplay, but diminishes players who prefer Melee-Centric Gameplay. Due to lack of: Separate Gun Fire and Melee Attack Buttons with same binding as Gun Zoom, Melee Air Glide, Quiet switch to Melee without alerting nearby enemies in Spy.

  • Solution: Run 2 Melee Systems at the same time. For Guns, there will be only 1 Full Guns Mode. For Melee, there will be 2 Modes to select from: Full Melee Mode (just like before 24.4.0, for Melee-Centric players who wish to lock themselves in Melee), and Semi-Melee Mode (like after 24.4.0, allowing fluid switch to Guns for Gun-Centric players).

  • On Full Melee Mode, allow different Buttons mapping for Gun Fire and Melee Attack, Melee Attack must be bindable to the same Button as Gun Zoom as it was before 24.4.0.

  • On Full Melee Mode, it is possible to make Channeling the Melee Air Glide Button, because Blocking is now automatic. Or separate them, and let players press a Button for Blocking which doesn't do anything or interfere with Auto-Blocking.

  • Have 2 separate Buttons for instant switching to/between Guns (Gun Switch) or to Melee (Melee Switch). Channeling can be activated by pressing Melee Switch again while using Melee or Reload Button (which doesn't have any use while we are in Melee Mode). So while in Melee Mode, either with Channeling activated or not, Melee-Centric players can always instantly switch to their last used Gun with Gun Switch Button.

Back it up:

  • Allowing 1 hand to be in full control of Guns make executing these actions feel realistic. This is actually also true with Melee. Allowing 1 hand to be in full control of Melee (RMB or LMB mapping to Melee Attack or Channeling) make executing these Melee actions feel realistic. Imagine holding a sword with your primary hand and you can activate channeling with that hand.

  • Having separate Buttons for Gun Fire and Melee Attack makes it a lot less confusing to many players who want more realistic distinction between the execution of these 2 different actions (by using 2 different fingers).

  • Having separate Buttons for Gun Fire (LMB(Left Mouse Button)) and Melee Attack (RMB(Right Mouse Button)) help players avoid strain on either finger (and even the mouse) from too many clicks during extended playtime. Less money spent on healthcare/hardware could mean more money spent on Warframe.

  • For Melee-Centric players, mapping Melee Attack to Keyboard Button makes it hard to maneuver. Because 3 fingers (Ring, Middle, Index) are locked on maneuvering, 1 finger (Thumb) to jumping, 1 finger (Pinky) to Couch for Bullet Jump. Being able to Melee Attack with a mouse remain preferable choice for many. This goes back to more realistic distinction again, where left hand is for maneuvering and right hand is for attacks.

  • On Full Melee Mode, Channeling is only used to: (1)Increase Melee Damage, (2)Activate Life Strike, (3)Melee Air Glide with Melee Block. All these 3 actions will never interfere with each other.

Be polite:

I actually love the new Auto-Blocking Mechanics and don't think it should be changed. It promotes aiming while in Melee is feel realistic. But as a Melee-Centric player, I do have huge problem with not allowing players to map LMB to Gun Fire and RMB to Melee Attack:

Quote

Your left mouse button is gun fire, always, instantly.

Your right mouse button is now aim, always, instantly.

 

Edited by BReporter
Underlining, Minor editing
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Sword alone blocking is bugged and interferes with other gear items; sometimes summoning gear instead of blocking. While blocking, you are permanently stuck in block until you swing again.

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Posted (edited)

Can we please get another toggle for melee weapons to keep them equipped while aim-gliding?

I like running around with a sword out but not ONLY using a sword, I also jump and slam a lot. I also use left click for melee attacks because "its the attack with weapon button". But every time I aim-glide it's pulling out a gun, which for flow of rotating weapons often would work great, but it's totally counter to my play-style.

All I want to do is be able to aim-glide with a melee weapon equipped and not have it change to a gun on me. It's really throwing off the ability to find slam targets and quickly attack because I'm supposed to remember that now when I hold a sword in my hands, on this one specific event the left click will shoot a gun, but every other time it will swing the sword. This isn't good for combat flow, and it's quite the hard habit to break.

This is all through non-combat testing of the system too, so I haven't even encountered the auto-blocking yet. But given that I never liked the idea of an auto-blocking mod when I tried it before, I'm doubting this new auto-blocking system is going to feel better.

Edited by IceFire909
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I will try to be short. We need two buttons:
 1. Melee-range weapon switching. Like it was before, but now its doing quick melee attack or quick shot (this is a cool feature).
 2. The quick melee attack and quick shot itself. And they are one button. (Perhaps, instead of a shot may be aiming. Because the finger shot looks a little awkward).

And please return the melee-gliding. This incredibly reduces mobility for melee fights. You cannot look around while you gliding aiming. You can only look forward. You just need to glide two meters to get on the cliff or "that box". Sometimes you can not do even this. Because of the small turning angle. And you will also fall down if you stop aiming. Right now you forced to press three buttons instead one - "rmb-aiming" to glide, "zoom out" to look around, and "melee-button" to switch it back.

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Maybe I will get used to the quick swapping currently implemented, but It's very uncomfortable right now. It probably doesn't help that I use an XB1 controller and am having to deal with a rebind that clashes even more with my muscle memory than what might be happening if it was just a matter of getting used to the update. I need melee attack on my right bumper and power use on my right thumbstick. Needing to accommodate melee channel because it can't be unbound has been very irritating.

Something that occurred to me while playing using the Sarpa is that gunblades feel less versatile now. Without the quick melee I used to be able to pull off easily in "gun mode", the guns are always loud, always distant. It's irritating not being to just smack a container or something with a gunblade without potentially setting off some guards. Between this and other issues like not being able to block during a glide, I'm finding it difficult to enjoy the combat,

Believe me when I say I appreciate the attempt to streamline combat, but in the process of doing so with this update it feels like options are being taken away more than being granted. I do want to try other aspects of the new melee like the altered ground slam and the like, as they seem like they can be fun, but I can't really enjoy those aspects when I'm fighting with the controls.

I saw something earlier that mentioned toggles for features between the new and old melee systems, and I do think I would appreciate such a toggle. Most importantly, a toggle for manual weapon switched, and an allowance for quick melee.

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I just want to point out that any melee weapons with a secondary fire button are completely unavailable with the current Melee Revisit Phase 1. For example Valkyr's Hysterical Assault will not activate as the game prioritizes primary/secondary weapon's secondary fire.

Also now being able to swap between Valkyr's Hysteria and any primary/secondary weapons feels unusual. It's an unintentional glitch that gives her Hysteria a boost in versatility but I think it really screws up with her invincibility being toggled on and off. Even the energy continues to be drained when drawing primary/secondary weapons and Hysteria still activated.

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Unfortunately Melee 2.99999999999999 is extremely dissapointing, because let's be honest. Apart from forcing us to change our muscle memory, nothing is really changed after like half a year of development. Sure the new FX looks dope, but it really could be added on any random update. The only changed feature right now is aim slam which feels great, but I think there should be a way to cancel it somehow midflight (if there is I wasn't able to pull it off).

Ridding us of a dedicated way to simply switch and forget from gun to melee was a mistake. Why did you remove it? The combos are awkward when you need to aim your gun for them.  Why not just leave it as an option? Why can't you add more keybind options? In other games you can keybind a combination of buttons for example "ctrl+1". If you are afraid that we run out of buttons to press, just give us combination keybinds but don't simply remove good options like "Switch to MELEE ONLY from any gun". In the heat of battle some people might not want to randomly zoom in or shoot with sniper rifles at a guy 10cm away seeing all of his wrinkles in the process.

Am I too harsh? Probably yeah, but that's because I'm still waiting for the remaining 0.000000000000001 melee that contains the actual changes you showed earlier like:

- changed combos, including comboing in any direction or simply in one place,

- reworked quick/charged attacks,

- being able to shorten the distance between us and enemy with just the melee (on the ground),

- reworked channeling,

- complete rebalance of melee weapon statistics.

Untill the last bit of melee 3.0 is released my criticism of current melee might be too harsh which I apologize for in advance, but I feel like it must be said.

 

Oh I almost forget, being forced to constantly block attacks while having channeling on drains energy way too fast. Sure, the channeling will be reworked some day, but as of right now it isn't and blocking is more inconvenient than it was before the update, even if automatic.

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