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[DE]Danielle

Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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Aimed slam is a bit wonky if the angle is slightly off character performs a jump attack and pretty much becomes unresponsive. I pretty much never used jump attack since it locks you in place, your character stands there not responding to any input for a couple of seconds. It's like applying crowd control on yourself. Instead of aiming on the spot during a jump, make aiming the slam a part of aim-glide maybe? Gliding with melee is something many people want back as far as I've seen and blocking with right mouse (or a key) instead of having it auto.

Gunblades feel clunky atm but maybe I have to get used to it, I'll try some more.

Also the new controls feel very unresponsive overall. Spin to win doesn't work as smooth now or slide attack in general feels like it's stopping you. I used to be able to start a combo do a slide attack to move out of a clump of enemies then continue hitting or just spin to win with a whip or polearm but now it doesn't register slide correctly, I think E tapping overwrites everything else. I know most folk don't like spin to win but I like it, it kept me alive in sticky situations helped me farm SO/ESO. I'd like to have it in my arsenal.

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2 hours ago, IceFire909 said:

Can we please get another toggle for melee weapons to keep them equipped while aim-gliding?

 

or just have gliding on holding jump button - without scoping or blocking. Because having to scope while on a sniper rifle to glide isn't ideal either.

This way you can still have block on RMB while wielding a melee weapon.

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Why did you remove the manual block option? Can you please bring it back on the right mousestick? That's how I used to control my aim glides more accurately. Now there is this silly zoom aimglide which switches my melee out to primary/secondary whenever I try to aimglide. Frankly rather disorienting, thanks

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Please please make melee aim gliding possible again for controller!

I really like the new feel of melee especially FX and the quick switch, but what i really miss is melee aim gliding! When i am in melee mode or also in excaliburs exalted blade i have to pull the gun trigger to be in gun mode again to be able to aimglide. I play with Xbox Controller and my left trigger is still unassigned when i`m in melee mode (as block is auto and channeling also works different now), this would be the perfect place for melee aimgliding as it is also aimgliding for guns. Also aimgliding with sniper rifles with extreme zoom is not really an alternative for melee aimgliding cos you don't really have an overview on the battlefield. Melee aim gliding was always one of the most fun aspects of warframe to me, the real space ninja feeling, i really hope you are going to reimplement this for controller!

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Posted (edited)

It was working perfectly. Why even change such fundamentally thing that players getting used to during years of playing? New system just feels awkward.. no melee glide, autoblock messes up some mods and takes away control, which is never good. And for what all of that? Quick-switch shots that looks like bugged animation cancels?

Please just return as it was before, atleast as an option.

Edited by Dis_Penser101
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45 minutes ago, supernils said:

 

or just have gliding on holding jump button - without scoping or blocking. Because having to scope while on a sniper rifle to glide isn't ideal either.

This way you can still have block on RMB while wielding a melee weapon.

holding jump would interfere with the second air jump. maybe hold sprint/crouch instead, or just a totally separate button

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6 minutes ago, IceFire909 said:

holding jump would interfere with the second air jump

I don't see how?

maybe hold sprint/crouch instead -> counter intuitive

or just a totally separate button -> please not more buttons

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If you bring only melee weapon along, you can do all the manual blocking and gliding, ect.

Thing is, the occasional shot with Lenz helps, too. 

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So there's no more switch to melee animation? That's very bad. Chasing a bit quicker fighting you loose a great moment of 'let's crush some skulls now'. Better if option of both old and new styles be available.

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While my own personal opinion is that the changes to the melee mechanics in the latest patch make the game significantly worse, in the interest of being fair, I'll mention the few things I liked before going to the many things I hated:

The Good:

1) Switching to melee is fast, and if you primarily enjoy Warframe for its gunplay, you will likely find that new system makes for an overall better experience.

2) The new slam attacks are much more convenient to use than the old ones.

3) The new effects look nice if you're into that kind of thing.

The Bad:

1) Picking up an item (i.e. data mass) in melee mode and switching to gun mode will drop the item.  This is massively annoying if you plan on primarily using melee weapons during a mission.  The only reason I have it listed under "bad" instead of "terrible" is that I think it might be a bug.

2) Blocking is now automatic, so builds that rely on taking damage to generate energy will find it more inconvenient to do so. 

3) The switch from melee to gun overrides exalted weapon abilities.  This cancels the abilities' effects while in gun mode, but still keeps the energy drain.  I can't see this being anything other than annoying (or downright deadly in the case of Valkyr).

The Terrible:

1) Quick melee is gone.  This is incredibly inconvenient.  There are many situations when weapons (e.g. polearms) have a much better quick attack than stance attack.  I don't understand why taking away the flexibility to use both is a good thing.  

2)  Aim gliding in melee mode forces you into gun mode.  There is no melee aim glide by default.  The only way to get back this functionality is to unequip all of your guns.  This is irredeemably bad.  Instead of making Warframe's hybrid combat system more seamless, it separates the gun and melee portions completely.  I should not have to fear dropping items because I decided that I might want to use more than one weapon type.  I should not have to desperately mash E before landing because I might otherwise end up trying to ineffectually club a ravenous horde of Infested with my Rubico. 

3) Block combos.  Why are there still block combos when you can't block manually?  I should not have to unequip my guns to make these combos work consistently.

I'm sure that I'm missing more negative consequences of the new system (for example, I do not use channeling, so I don't know how removing it affects the game), but considering I noticed so many problems after only a few days of playing, I think this list would only get longer as time goes on.

Overall the changes seem ill-conceived.  Warframe is not a spectacle fighter like Devil May Cry.  The latter has combo mechanics that make switching between gunplay and melee feel rewarding.  In Warframe you can't juggle enemies (if only because most properly-modded weapons vaporize them in one hit), you can't chain moves together (in fact, stance combos override the so-called fast switching), you don't get bonuses by being stylish.  What exactly is the point of trying to force something that doesn't fit the core gameplay?

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I notice we cannot straight away use the alternate fire of guns since middle-mouse is for channeling usage, which means we are back to square one of changing back to gun from melee before we can alternate fire with the gun. An oversight in planning perhaps.

Another thing is... is there some programming restriction that doesn't allow Exodia Contagion to be fired from a double-jump now? Now we have to press 1 more button (right mouse) to aim-glide then press E to fire off the projectile.

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Fishing spear is switching to the first spear in the inventory and I have to choose the right one again after using melee. Also, if I do a melee attack while reeling a fish with electric spear, everything bugs out so I'm unable to do or use anything.

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Good day, DE team. I really liked the 2.0 system, after its introduction, melee weapons felt like a full-fledged weapon, not as a decorative element hanging behind the warframe. From 3.0 system I was expecting the development of this concept. But what happened in the end? It was not the development of a new system, but rather a return to the system 1.0. And that's really too bad. Melee weapons are no longer perceived as normal weapons, they have become decorative element again. Extremely frustrating, then removed the ability to equip melee weapons as in 2.0 system. The combo system is badly damaged, auto-block does not work in the best way (this is not always convenient), the lack of controlled flight with melee weapons is also extremely inconvenient. Constantly dropping items that warframe holds in hands. The system is extremely inconvenient.

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Posted (edited)

There are so many different opinions, ideas, complaints, etc. flying around in here. It's hard to keep track of it all. But from reading through all the feedback so far, in my opinion, so many people are suffering from the X Y problem:

Quote

The XY problem is a communication problem encountered in help desk and similar situations in which the real issue, X, of the person asking for help is obscured, because instead of asking directly about issue X, they ask how to solve a secondary issue, Y, which they believe will allow them to resolve issue X. However, resolving issue Y often does not resolve issue X, or is a poor way to resolve it, and the obscuring of the real issue and the introduction of the potentially strange secondary issue can lead to the person trying to help having unnecessary difficulties in communication and offering poor solutions.

Most of the complaints and proposed suggestions ("just make it how it was before!!!") seem to be falling under this category, in my opinion.

For example:

  • Auto blocking. People are complaining about how it's burning away their energy during channeling. Their proposed solution is to go back to manual blocking. The real issue isn't having control over blocking (problem Y), it's the fact that channeled blocks draining energy is just bad in the first place (problem X). The real solution is to fix channeling - and they do have plans on the way to improve this! I for one love the new streamlined autoblocking, and am very much looking forward to the new rage mode channeling that will be coming.
     
  • Quick melee. People are complaining that melee feels so slow and sluggish now because quick melee is gone, and now we're forced into the horrible full combos. Their proposed solution is to go back to a manual weapon switch, go back to quick melee, etc. The real issue isn't the lack of quick melee (problem Y), it's the fact that the full melee combos are just bad in the first place (problem X). The real solution is to fix the full melee combos, stop them rooting you into place, stop them slowing down your movement, and make them use the full sprint speed under the player's full control. They do have plans to improve this with the full Melee 3.0, and showed off changes a while back - for some reason this seems to be taking them a very long time though.

I think this melee update would have been much better received if it released in a complete state as the full Melee 3.0, instead of this in-between partially-done state as Melee 2.999 (really Melee 2.001). If this released with the new channeling system and the new melee combos, there would likely be far less complaints.

---

My suggestion to DE:

  1. For a quick temporary fix to issues, please bring back the option to have "hold button channeling" instead of making channeling only a toggle. I imagine this should be very quick and easy for you to implement, since you already had it and just took it out. This will make it easier for people to use things like Life Strike again, until the new channeling system is finished.
     
  2. For a temporary fix to issues, either A) make all weapon types perform "quick melee" attacks when no stance is equipped, or B) add an option to the settings menu to make all weapon types perform "quick melee" attacks instead of full combos, or C) go through all the melee combos and change them to no longer root players in place. I don't think this would necessarily be a quick change for you to make, but it would solve the problems until the new combos can be finished.
     
  3. Rework the "Melee with Fire Weapon Input" setting a bit. I suggest renaming it for a start. Let's make it a toggle setting, with its options being "Prefer Guns" and "Prefer Melee". When it's set to "Prefer Guns", it works exactly as the current system does by default: fire brings out and fires your gun, aim brings out and aims your gun, and melee brings out and swings your melee. When it's set to "Prefer Melee" and you're in melee mode, then fire swings the melee weapon and aim allows for aim gliding with the melee weapon still out.
     
  4. Release the new channeling system and new melee combos as soon as possible. Make sure the new combos function better. They should allow fast movement, be under the player's control (no forced movement on default combos), and be easy to perform (no pause combos!).
Edited by SteveCutler

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8 minutes ago, SteveCutler said:

 

For a temporary fix to issues, either A) make all weapon types perform "quick melee" attacks when no stance is equipped, or B) add an option to the settings menu to make all weapon types perform "quick melee" attacks instead of full combos, or C) go through all the melee combos and change them to no longer root players in place. I don't think this would necessarily be a quick change for you to make, but it would solve the problems until the new combos can be finished

Not having a stance equipped isn't really an option, since it would break so many builds because mod capacity is tied to having a stance equipped. As a quick melee only user, losing mod capacity would be even worse for me than the current "well, guess three quick melee strikes flings me across the map now" situation.

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3 minutes ago, Badgerlad said:

Not having a stance equipped isn't really an option, since it would break so many builds because mod capacity is tied to having a stance equipped. As a quick melee only user, losing mod capacity would be even worse for me than the current "well, guess three quick melee strikes flings me across the map now" situation.

Yes, it's not ideal, but I meant it only as a temporary fix until they give us the proper Melee 3.0 combos. Option B there is probably better - give us a toggle option in the settings for it.

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Dear DE,

I would like to see this things on melee 3.0

1)Fight on the air no just one hit as now, we are NINJAS we have to fight in the air. (A Tenno is a master of aerial tactics as you said.)

2)Channeling become something like a devil trigger, more effects to warframe while chanelling (same to the weapon) , faster, stronger (not a lot)  instead of draining energy drain health maybe?.

3)something new if we dont want to take a secondary weapon it would be nice to have the option to take a second primary weapon (I know this is not for melee 3.0 but i wanted to share it with you...)

The overall phase 1 update is good so far for me 

 Have a nice day

Thank you for your time DE

 

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58 minutes ago, SteveCutler said:

Yes, it's not ideal, but I meant it only as a temporary fix until they give us the proper Melee 3.0 combos. Option B there is probably better - give us a toggle option in the settings for it.

I think our efforts, suggestions and woes fall on deaf ears. 

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1 hour ago, SteveCutler said:

My suggestion to DE:

  1. For a quick temporary fix to issues, please bring back the option to have "hold button channeling" instead of making channeling only a toggle. I imagine this should be very quick and easy for you to implement, since you already had it and just took it out. This will make it easier for people to use things like Life Strike again, until the new channeling system is finished.
     
  2. For a temporary fix to issues, either A) make all weapon types perform "quick melee" attacks when no stance is equipped, or B) add an option to the settings menu to make all weapon types perform "quick melee" attacks instead of full combos, or C) go through all the melee combos and change them to no longer root players in place. I don't think this would necessarily be a quick change for you to make, but it would solve the problems until the new combos can be finished.
     
  3. Rework the "Melee with Fire Weapon Input" setting a bit. I suggest renaming it for a start. Let's make it a toggle setting, with its options being "Prefer Guns" and "Prefer Melee". When it's set to "Prefer Guns", it works exactly as the current system does by default: fire brings out and fires your gun, aim brings out and aims your gun, and melee brings out and swings your melee. When it's set to "Prefer Melee" and you're in melee mode, then fire swings the melee weapon and aim allows for aim gliding with the melee weapon still out.
     
  4. Release the new channeling system and new melee combos as soon as possible. Make sure the new combos function better. They should allow fast movement, be under the player's control (no forced movement on default combos), and be easy to perform (no pause combos!).

1. An option to have channeling be either toggled or held would be great even if we did revert to the old control scheme. 

2.This is pointless. We need a stance for mod capacity as well as the fact that sometimes we DO want to use the combos just not all the time. And some of us like the current combos WHEN we intend to use them. The problem with this update is an attempt to oversimplify melee to the point where it takes the fine tuned control we had before away. The only acceptable fixes are a revert or better a toggle to allow people to choose this or the old control scheme. 

3. Except there are people who use that because they want to melee with the same button as the fire input. A completely new option would be better for what you suggest instead of replacing one. It's still only a half of a bandage though but it would work as a sub option for an option on whether to use the new control scheme or not.

4. I like my old combos though. Particularly the ones that contain a lot of slams in the mix. Animation lock is fine on certain moves such as the ones that slam or launch you forward or back but what we need is more options. 

From my viewpoint we've got a "You tried to fix something that wasn't broke and now there's a damn spanner mangled and jammed between 3 of the gears." scenario here.

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Didn't realize there was a dedicated thread for the melee changes so I'm going to kind of restate what I posted in the main update thread.

Things I like about the new melee changes: The swing effects are beautiful, I have noticed some anomalous lighting things when using  venka prime though, at least when I was using melee in the derelict it started to look like there was a strobe light somewhere. The aimed ground slam/leap is great, I just wish enemies weren't thrown so far from me when I'm not using a weapon designed for it (like the jet kitty).

With that said, overall I feel like this change has really missed the point and been a major step backwards. And I mean that literally, as someone who was around for melee 1.0 these new changes feel like we've gone back to that system but with more awkward animations. Since I can no longer stick with my melee weapon the same way I can stick with my primary or secondary the attachment and feel of the system is much lower. If I want to "main" my melee weapon I have to very carefully not hit any button other than the actual melee button.

I also didn't realize just how much I actually used manual blocking until it was gone. It became pure muscle memory to block whenever an ancient or scorpion would try and grapple hook me or throwing up a block to negate a ground slam. And auto blocking is not a good substitute, I haven't equipped the Reflex Guard mod since 2014 for a reason.

Then there's the fact that controller button mapping seems to be quite broken with this new system as melee channeling used to be mapped to my "quick melee" button in melee weapon mode and the melee attack button became my main fire button. Now melee is bound to the same button as channeling and the game won't let me remap channeling so that system is currently just gone as well.

To condense my overall thoughts, I feel that there was two main ways of looking at the 2.0 melee system: using quick/air/slide melee as a ready supplement to gun combat or to quickly clear out enemies at close range and switching to melee mode to take full advantage of manual blocking, combos, and channeling features. With this update we've tried to have our cake and eat it too but only highlighted why people preferred one viewpoint of 2.0 over the other. For those who prefer quick melee exclusively it was because they don't like how clunky many of the stance combos are and for those who like the full melee system it was because they enjoyed the full suite of features the system offered. Now both viewpoints have lost the things they liked about the system and gained relatively little to compensate. 

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Only two issues I see with melee changes and very simple ones to fix.

Holding F should lock you into melee only until you hold F again... Very annoying for us mouse button attack players to do hold combos and constantly being forced back into firing our gun when players like myself want to use melee for a mission 90% of the time and guns are more of a tool to be used when needed. Not really an option to just bring melee. I usually bring a sniper for long range annoyances. Also having melee out and aim gliding puts the melee away and if you have a sniper you get zoomed in instead of holding what used to be block to block the incoming fire while you close in.

Using E to exit archwing should just exit archwing and not bring out your melee weapon. For those that want to exit archwing with melee just need to press the button twice... I am finding it hard to train myself to aim to get back the gun instead of just firing. I have died several times getting stuck into a slow melee attack (berserk not triggering) instead of firing and dying as a result.

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@DE Just give us original melee back and keep the new effects and combos ect!

We’re actively investigating issues arising with Controller functionality relating to Melee 2.99997 changes (Aim Gliding, Meleeing, etc)!

Message added by [DE]Danielle

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Melee needs a reticule? I'd prefer to have colored and resizable reticules (espially for the operator) . I look forward to this update on switch! 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, am0rtized said:

Quick melee is gone.  This is incredibly inconvenient.  There are many situations when weapons (e.g. polearms) have a much better quick attack than stance attack.  I don't understand why taking away the flexibility to use both is a good thing.  

Oh no! I hope not. 

Edited by (NSW)Harlox
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Thank you for returning block-glide, even if it is only for melee-only loadouts.

However, block-gliding is bugged at the moment, causing my character to be locked in a block-glide animation while doing certain mid-air combinations. This only fixes after I melee attack, meaning that I'm unable to control myself properly while airborne. 

Additionally, I can no longer blockglide immediately after a bullet jump; something I could do prior to this update. I need to double jump or wait a half second in order to control my aerials, which is a huge nerf to parkour in general.

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