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[DE]Danielle

Melee Revisit: Phase 1 Feedback Megathread

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The more I use the new system, the worse it feels.  Weapon switching is janky as heck and makes me drop coolant/datamasses/etc. way too often.  The "melee flow" changes NEED to be reverted.  The slam attacks are the only good change made in the last patch, and not being able to properly equip a melee weapon feels so awful.  Being stuck with a melee weapon after using quick melee and pulling out a gun whenever I try to aimglide in melee (a vital part of mobility for melee weapons) screws everything up.

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Posted (edited)

The question for DE is: Was there a HUGE out cry from the players for this new melee change? I have never spent a lot of time on the forums because I was too busy playing and having fun. That all changed with this new melee. I never heard another player say “Melee sucks! New system needs to be put in place.”

IMHO the melee wasn't broken so why fix it!! I've been nothing but frustrated with this change and is the first change in 6 years that has made me want to stop playing. I have played around with the options and feel I have a full understanding of how the old and new system works. Blocking was great in the old system for me and seem to add another level of skill to using melee full time. My block and aim were the same key (space bar) and I could always aim glide (gun or melee mode) using the same key. So blocking was easing because I was using a key that gets used a LOT! Also blocking while flying through the air aim gliding was awesome and you always had control over what was happening.

My only complaint with the old system was the time in which it took to change modes. To me it seemed slow. What I think what should have been changed is the speed in which you change from full gun to full melee mode. If the key to change just became melee strike and you instantly used your melee and stayed in melee and still be able to use a key for quick melee and channeling (toggled on or off) that would have been awesome. I'm finding that the combo out of the gate to be a bit much. Too many times I hit the melee and I'm off in another direction with the combo going and I can't stop it and I end up somewhere I don't want to be. 

I've tried this with “Melee with weapon fire input” on and off and I just can't get a balance. Sometimes it seems to work for some situation on and some off. I love to run and gun with the quick melee to crack crates and when you are needing to reload your weapon I would quick melee if I was being over run and didn't have any ammo in the gun and survival means quick action. 

The new system does what seems to be a quick melee but now your stuck in that mode when you don't want to be. (Melee with weapon fire input on) I find myself hitting a crate or bad guy and then try to shoot my gun. To get back I have to either aim or use switch weapon to get back; clunky. I find myself wanting to use quick melee and I want to reload my gun but I can't because Mr. gun is now on my back instead of in my hands wear it would be. If hitting reload took me back to the gun I was using (either main or side arm) that would work; maybe have an option for that. (Melee with weapon fire input off) I find myself wanting to use the melee and I fire (left mouse button) and takes me right back to my gun. And now when I instinctively want to block in melee mode and my gun comes up. Don't even get me started on the auto blocking; that really needs to be an option.

I'm trying to keep an open mind given this is just the first iteration of the change but you didn't give us anything, you just took control away from the more advanced PC players.

Sorry for the whiney long winded post. This popsikle is not happy.😢

Edited by Meatsikle
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Posted (edited)

My third post in this thread and hopefully final thoughts about the feeling of melee phase one.
Bare in mind that at this point in time I have no clue what future melee phases will implement after such a long development, so I'll write this post as if they won't happen. To put it simply: only current changes feedback + fixes/improvements suggestions.

How it feels:

Right now it feels like it's purposedly being dumbed down for those players that simply mash "default_melee_button" the entire mission with no rythm whatsoever. Dumbed down for no reason at all. Those people - including 2 of my best friends complain that "quick melee" is no longer quick enough becuase the combos sometimes are just too slow, or that they are too inconvenient because they flung them across the room when they didn't want that to happen. That's aside from all the bugs that it implemented that other people mentioned here.

vs How it IMHO should feel:

First of all, if you want new/casual players to enjoy melee as much as melee enthusiasts there should be a choice in options like in Devil May Cry (because I saw in devstreams that you like to talk about it and how awesome it feels), to either play on melee autopilot that will make the game play itself (feels like game's current direction anyway) or hardcore version for enthusiasts that will allow them to manually do standard attacks, charged attacks (why charged attacks need their own keybind? because we don't have a need to slash a glaive in front of us just to throw it a couple of seconds later) AND BLOCK, all 3 of those functiions requiring it's OWN keybind. No more 1 button to rule them all nonsense where the only difference is how hard and long people press it. Not everybody plays on the controler, especially not on PC, so don't forget about your PC players and give them more keybind options to fully customize their melee experience.

Look at fighting games for example, like Mortal Kombat. There are always at least 2 player types: "The masher of 1 button" and "The player that tries to embrace the complex fighting system" so please don't neglect completely the second group while reworking melee for the sake of the first, because believe it or not there are people that enjoy complex fighting systems that fully reworked melee could offer them. Basically the order of implementation of changes feels completely backwards. You started by removing control options instead of expanding them. The scaffolding should be removed only after the building is finished, not before, you can do that for consoles after we fully betatest complete melee 3.0, not before.

Also having faster than light speed gun to melee swap while also having primary to secondary swap taking ages is completely inconsistent and unrealistic. What's the point?

tl;dr:
The best thing you could do right now is to "soft revert" changes by bringing back "switch to melee only" button while also giving people a toggle option for automated stuff like blocking, so that people would have a choice and switch it on/off depending on their playstyle. This way we can have BOTH things! Don't remove options, improve or expand them instead.

Edit: at the very least give certain melee actions higher priority, for example charging attack should have higher priority than blocking, that way charged weapons like redeemer would no longer be completely useless.

Edited by przemo877
Had last minute idea.
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Posted (edited)

Pretty much, the primary change that I feel would fix most of the issues is if the aim/block button (right mouse click for most everyone) would function differently depending on the weapon currently in the player's hand.

Leave the quick switch function on quick melee strike and left mouse click. This was a very good change. Quick melee still switches you to melee weapon and attacks, and left mouse switches you out of melee and back to the gun you had out before you switched to melee. Quick melee button can function as the attack function for melee weapons still, as it currently is with melee 3.0.

Change the right mouse button to its old function before 3.0. This maintains the old manual block ability when you have your melee out as well as maintaining the old integrity of melee combos without putting you back into gun mode once the combo finishes.

Remove the auto-block function entirely. This was a nice thought, but makes no sense at all, and for many, hurts more than it helps, interrupting the flow of gun fire and attacking. Do you really think it's a good idea, logically speaking, to block gun fire with an arca-plasmor which fires off radioactive waves of death? Have you ever seen what happens to a gun that takes a bullet in real life? Yes, I know this is a sci-fi universe, but a gun that takes a bullet more often than not becomes a useless gun. An arca-plasmor that takes a bullet, from a strict logical perspective, should become a nuclear bomb in my hands. Remove the auto-block function. If you REALLY want it available to players as an option, put it on a mod that's more common than Reflex Guard was.

I don't want to sound rude, but it's probably going to sound rude regardless of how I phrase this question, but did y'all play test this function at all before implementation? And if so, how did this issue make it past quality assurance?

Edited by xZeromusx
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Posted (edited)

PLEASE remove the auto block for melee... or at least make it toggleable so that those of us who like to play melee a lot can turn it off. It's annoying and takes the fun out of using melee weapons, making playing melee only boring as hell. 

The new melee system is basically broken in public sessions and movement is much more restricted, might be just me though. In solo mode it works better since there was no continuous auto glide (not lag related issues). First time I joined a game, my character kept auto gliding and I had to use melee attack which made me go further than I wanted to. Second time I joined a public game with only melee equipped, I couldn't move at all and had to restart...  

Except the autoblock feature and current bugs, I have to say everything else looks and feels great. I'm looking forward to future melee updates and potentially the removal of the autoblock feature or making it toggleable.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Blyatman210
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I can see the determination to move forward and implement this entire upgrade in it's totality.  I hope your mission is a success and you achieve what you're seeking.

I'm trying to come up with constructive feedback for the melee changes.  For myself, I honestly don't feel any of this was needed, desired, or beneficial.  I think instant swapping of weapons in any form is a move in the wrong direction for combat.  In it's own way, it signifies that planning, strategy, and tactics aren't as important to fighting as button mashing.  You might as well add in instant reloading and remove the need to have ammo.  It's a dummy down of an enjoyably complex battle system.  The cost of running dry in the open and needing to swap to another weapon while surrounded by opposition added depth, realism, and challenge.  Now it's insta-swap. 

Melee combat feels dull and lifeless.  My former style would involve well timed channeling bursts to increase the damage right as I was about to impact on a target.  Channelled bursts during combos were a signature for me.  It defined not only my playstyle, but was key to my success and ability to remove targets quickly, silently, efficiently.  It made me feel like a master of stealth and assassination.  Now to be even close to my previous level I need to change keybinds to allow myself to snipe my opponents and still be effective when things go upfront and personal.  There really isn't a smooth way to achieve this.

Here's my 2 cents on the upgrade: 
It stopped me from having fun when I play. 
I log in each day to read the patch notes. 
I'll see it through, I'll witness the end result.  But I know how this ends. 
 

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I have one issue with the controls. No matter what, if I use the lefty+right mouse buttons for a combo, the moment I stop attacking with my melee weapon, I pull out my primary or secondary weapon.

This is somewhat jarring for me. I get that people move in and out of melee, but for me, I do either melee or use my guns for some fights. If I want to quick melee, I use quick attack.

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Please do not remove the autoblock mechanic. It absolutely makes sense and fits the flow of the game. Just fix the actual issues with it - it interrupting charge animations, etc.

Also, I noticed another bug while playing: I cannot slide or perform a bullet jump immediately after a slam attack.

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1 hour ago, Rhoshan said:

I can see the determination to move forward and implement this entire upgrade in it's totality.  I hope your mission is a success and you achieve what you're seeking.

I'm trying to come up with constructive feedback for the melee changes.  For myself, I honestly don't feel any of this was needed, desired, or beneficial.  I think instant swapping of weapons in any form is a move in the wrong direction for combat.  In it's own way, it signifies that planning, strategy, and tactics aren't as important to fighting as button mashing.  You might as well add in instant reloading and remove the need to have ammo.  It's a dummy down of an enjoyably complex battle system.  The cost of running dry in the open and needing to swap to another weapon while surrounded by opposition added depth, realism, and challenge.  Now it's insta-swap. 

Melee combat feels dull and lifeless.  My former style would involve well timed channeling bursts to increase the damage right as I was about to impact on a target.  Channelled bursts during combos were a signature for me.  It defined not only my playstyle, but was key to my success and ability to remove targets quickly, silently, efficiently.  It made me feel like a master of stealth and assassination.  Now to be even close to my previous level I need to change keybinds to allow myself to snipe my opponents and still be effective when things go upfront and personal.  There really isn't a smooth way to achieve this.

Here's my 2 cents on the upgrade: 
It stopped me from having fun when I play. 
I log in each day to read the patch notes. 
I'll see it through, I'll witness the end result.  But I know how this ends. 
 

Totally agree with every word!! Right there with you. Now I log in to get my reward, queue another forma and see if a friend is on. If he isn't on I log and go do something else.
My guts tell me I know how this is going to end too, with more hard drive space for another game.

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1 hour ago, SteveCutler said:

Please do not remove the autoblock mechanic. It absolutely makes sense and fits the flow of the game. Just fix the actual issues with it - it interrupting charge animations, etc.

Also, I noticed another bug while playing: I cannot slide or perform a bullet jump immediately after a slam attack.

Or they can just make it an option if they allow us to pick which control scheme we use.  I absolutely don't want the autoblock and want to go back to using RMB for it. 

This new control scheme pretty much entirely destroys my playstyle (and thus the playstyle of many others as I'm not conceited enough to think I have a super special snoflake, unique to me only, playstyle nobody else uses). Hard to do all the jumping, rolling, slamming, sliding, spinning, and gliding about I usually do which these unwanted weapon switches and zooming  messing up the whole thing. The changes are making keeping the mobility I usually do janky as all hell. And it's not good jank.

I want my melee to be out when I want my melee out and my guns out when I want my guns out. I want my weapons to switch when and ONLY when I specifically tell them to(barring crap like picking up a datamass not letting me use my primary/the doggo trainers stealing my gun type deals obviously).

Before this update I used mostly the default controls except I used the twelve side buttons on my mouse (they just act like the number key row with 10, 11, and 12 as 0, -, and =.) for abilities and I bound 6 to spint/roll and 9 to crouch. Worked great. Felt fine and seamless to switch between my melee and guns before. 

The argument of "but what about controller players" is no excuse. The controls have to be different anyway so why drag mouse and keyboard users down with it? 

Just make it an option to choose between type A and Type B controls or something so those of use who want the old way can have it and those who like this weird jank can have that without screwing the rest of us over.

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il y a 33 minutes, Sikelh a dit :

The argument of "but what about controller players" is no excuse. The controls have to be different anyway so why drag mouse and keyboard users down with it? 

Just make it an option to choose between type A and Type B controls or something so those of use who want the old way can have it and those who like this weird jank can have that without screwing the rest of us over.

The game isn't even played across platform anyways, is it? Or am I mistaken? I don't recall being able to play along side my friends on PS4. Unless y'all mean people using controllers on the PC, in which case... Why?

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, xZeromusx said:

The game isn't even played across platform anyways, is it? Or am I mistaken? I don't recall being able to play along side my friends on PS4. Unless y'all mean people using controllers on the PC, in which case... Why?

There's a few who do. Not sure why but to each his own.

Other than that it's probably just a case of trying to minimize differences across platforms for easier development but that's still no excuse for this weird attempt at oversimplification to the point of actively taking control away from the player. 

And especially with it being released in phases? It absolutely should have been an opt in option instead of forced upon everyone incomplete. 

 

Edited by Sikelh
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40 minutes ago, Sikelh said:

This new control scheme pretty much entirely destroys my playstyle

Right there with you Sikelh! I have a total customized control set up and this new change has destroyed my style of playing. All the muscle memory of playing has gone right out the window. I use space bar for aim and block. Now I get a gun when I want to block. I want to quick melee and then reload my gun; can't because my melee is out and not my gun. I have played around with new customization's to try and find where DE is going with this and try and get some synergy but I can't. Melee with weapon fire input on or off, doesn't matter. I now this is the start of this change but all they did was take control away from the more advanced players. Auto-blocking, really?!!!

I'm so frustrated right now I could punch a baby right into London Ontario!

DE if you read this look out the window and just imagine seeing this Popsikle out there with a protest sign. How about fix bugs and work on new content. What a waist of man power!

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Overall, I like the changes, but there are a few cases where I liked the old behavior better. The biggest issue that I'm running into right now is that aim gliding takes you out of melee. On most frames this isn't a big deal, but when I'm relying on Valkyr's 4 keeping me invulnerable, aim gliding turns that off. I would like to be able to aim glide while staying invulnerable.

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il y a 1 minute, Sikelh a dit :

Other than that it's probably just a case of trying to minimize differences across platforms for easier development but that's still no excuse for this weird attempt at oversimplification to the point of actively taking control away from the player. 

Agreed. Final Fantasy 14 limited their patches and expansions to cater towards PS3 players when PC and PS4 was vastly out pacing the hardware of PS3, which caused so much content to become stale and boring. If you're going to do a game across multiple platforms, be prepared to have to adjust the controls for such, or else you're going to either cater towards the the platform with either lesser capability at the cost of losing the players of the more capable platform, or cater to the more capable at the cost of the lesser. PC is constantly out pacing other systems just by its customizable systems and pretty much unmatched controls. You can look for any console system in history, and it's not going to match the ability to use an entire QWERY keyboard along with the thousands of other devices like Razer Nostromos and foot pedals that can be put to use across multiple games with customizable key inputs. DE is going to have to face it, they'll either have to accept the diverse and wide gap between console and PC, or essentially break parts of their game to make it uniform.

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1 minute ago, Chanzi said:

The biggest issue that I'm running into right now is that aim gliding takes you out of melee.

Another great point! totally agree!

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3 minutes ago, xZeromusx said:

Agreed. Final Fantasy 14 limited their patches and expansions to cater towards PS3 players when PC and PS4 was vastly out pacing the hardware of PS3, which caused so much content to become stale and boring. If you're going to do a game across multiple platforms, be prepared to have to adjust the controls for such, or else you're going to either cater towards the the platform with either lesser capability at the cost of losing the players of the more capable platform, or cater to the more capable at the cost of the lesser. PC is constantly out pacing other systems just by its customizable systems and pretty much unmatched controls. You can look for any console system in history, and it's not going to match the ability to use an entire QWERY keyboard along with the thousands of other devices like Razer Nostromos and foot pedals that can be put to use across multiple games with customizable key inputs. DE is going to have to face it, they'll either have to accept the diverse and wide gap between console and PC, or essentially break parts of their game to make it uniform.

Yet another great point. Thank you for so eloquently putting it!

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After spending a bit more time with the melee system, I think I've come to the conclusion that I feel like I've lost control over my melee.
Like melee has become just an auxiliary system plugged onto the side of gunplay, like Quick Melee, except now all we've got is quick melee.

  • Autoblocking: - Something about it feels right, even its lack of reliability in some situations, if I'm getting it for free then I don't mind it being unreliable, as long as it doesn't get in the way of what I'm trying to do, animation locking or whatnot.  But I think I need that block button back, something reliable, something I can interact with, give me some semblance of control over my actions in melee.  And I don't want to sacrifice the flexibility of carrying guns with me, just to get this control back.

 

  • Weapon-Switching: - Something about it feels magical, almost reminds me of Nier Automata, weapons teleporting out of your hands and back into their holsters with subtle ghostly effects, creating this surreal flow -but it also doesn't quite feel natural; maybe this is an animation problem or maybe I need to get used to it.
    This also ties into blocking somewhat, as accidentally switching to guns while you're trying to protect yourself and reposition is rather vexing; I kind of appreciated the soft-lock of equipping melee in the past, but I do like the versatility of being able to weave gunfire; maybe a Quick Shot button adding onto/replacing the Reload button while in Melee mode?.
    I think too many people are going to prefer too many different setups for these two systems to get fused/homogenized together.

 

  • Channeling: - Like blocking, having this extra option to change up melee combat sort of gave me something else I could commit my attention to; momentary spikes of channeling interspersed with regular attacks when you feel a little extra power is needed in specific moments, like maybe boost your spin attack to weaken the group then hack each one down normally, or Channel a Finisher to Life Strike your health back to full.  I kind of liked it being on the left click, l personally hate using the mouse wheel as a third button and any weapon that uses it kind of gets ignored -part of why Panthera is no longer my favourite weapon.
    However, this is probably going to be fixed in later phases where Channeling either gets removed or replaced entirely, I was mainly focusing on the tactics and control being muddled up.
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My only issue with the changes is the auto-blocking, most of the time it resets the combo or just won't block at all xD

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Yet further experience with the system has made me realize that since the update I just use my melee a whole lot less now due to the increased jank.

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Short review, I think the new melee system should be applied case by case. WIth gunblades it's absolutely fantastic (and I do think the way they feel should be the base for everything to come) with anything else it's really clunky. For instance dual wielding with glaives and that mechanic make things really confusing at times as some moves will put you into full melee and remove the charging mode.

My suggestion : I think the new playstyle has an insane potential but you need to put new stances that have more utility and range or it wont work. For instance I was leveling the Ohma last week end. The animations are good, the new smash control makes it great for CC but the combos are so fast and focused on moving the frame I just fly around hitting nothing most of the time. Stances need to have some kind of slight reaching mechanic to make that epic gameplay feel better (thinking of fighting games where you just want to focus on the timing not the how accurately your move will hit) and/or extra impact range, something like a toned down version of baruuk's thrown fist that would make normal move have and an echoing effect in space. The whole point would be to increase the radial effect of melee to make it worth using over normal guns who currently kill faster from a far longer distance. A more balanced way to emulate the lack of range spin to win tried to make up for in melee. 

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some DE employee suggested unequipping ranged weapon for people who would like to aim glide without scoping their ranged weapon.

However if you have used a scanner in the mission before, the scanner will be requipped when aim gliding. This should be fixed.

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Posted (edited)

I like the changes but not all of them, lemme make a clear list:

Pros:

  • Quick switching is useful - but should be more flexible when it comes to keybinds. We should be able to split the Fire weapon and Melee channel button into separate keybinds, and that's just one example. Having options never hurt anyone.
  • Directional slams are crazy fun 
  • Auto-blocking is useful - but should be optional, sometimes taking damage is desired and automated blocking gets in the way of that

Cons:

  • Hold-to-channel no longer an option - Lmao. Guys. Too many people rely on Life Strike as means of staying alive to just take this away. Please bring it back, perhaps with an option to keep it a toggle for players who took the liking to the change. Me and many others find having to toggle it much to tedious and less accessible.
  • Melee aim-glide removed - if somebody's using a sniper and decides to glide, suddenly their situational awareness is out the window
  • Quick melee removed - not a big con thanks to instant switching but the partial combos are indeed handy sometimes, mostly due to not interrupting movement (in most cases), as opposed to some default combos.
  • Block combos are wonky to use - there are too many issues associated with RMB switching to guns. That functionality should be optional. Perhaps a toggle in the settings, something along the lines of "Switch to ranged weapon with RMB?"
  • Directional slams can be wonky - not entirely sure why this happens but sometimes i find myself launched 100m sideways upon meleeing an enemy and maybe not entirely standing on the ground. Maybe a stricter angle limit would help?

TL;DR - we need options, that's the only way to please everyone.

I don't know what you guys are planning to do with channeling and Life Strike but please keep in mind that without those, many frames will lose their most reliable way of staying alive.

Edited by Redstoneman
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My biggest issue is not being able to re-bind LB on controller. I don't use melee channeling nor want to. I just want my alt fire on that button so I can mine, fish, do eidolons with sniper bonuses and a functional amp, enjoy using buzlok, etc. The default controls have the crouch/slide/roll on LB as well, but I don't really need that as much as I need alt fire. Funny thing is if I try to bind crouch/slide/roll to LB even though it's already on there, it still tells me I can't bind it to a button with a melee stance action. The default control scheme already breaks its own rules which is just dumb.

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I’m a player of PS4, but have been actively reading and reviewing plenty of posts on Melee 2.9 all across the forums. I figured my post from another thread could be well-suited to be posted here:

Would like to see how manual block gets addressed. I used aimglide block extensively for the purposes of parkour and not straining my eyes via ADS. I also manually block to decisively react with situational DR (especially as a Toxic Lash Saryn). I actively used stances in full melee mode, I preferred pause combos over block combos, or whatever combo that suited the field. And for a time, I actively used the block mods for melee (Guardian Derision, Electromagnetic Shielding) to keep aggro or redirect enemy damage for tanking.

Autoblock is a lazy implementation. That’s hard to defend, and undoubtedly imho very unhealthy for the transgression for the game. I’ve suggested many times in tying manual block with the Zoom/ADS key to recreate a universal functionality for both gun and melee mode, and not have Zoom/ADS exclusive to gun mode, to keep to the spirit of manual blocking as I feel that that melee function is necessary for the game in trying to unify both gun and melee into a single instance.

I’ve also read that channeling was suggested to be turned into a toggle on single press instead of being a hold press to keep channeling. For the form factor on both KB&M and controller, I feel that that could be a safe and healthier option for our hands.

I’m anxious about Melee 2.9 and Melee 3.0, but imho it was not a splendid start for melee fanatics and it’s making me not anticipate for the console launch. Boosting weapon swap speeds may have been preferable overall in the limelight of all this, but the sight of seeing combos intertwine with gunplay is what DE wanted to do (without figuring out on how to manage everything else in the process).

If we’re going to continue with Melee 2.9 onto Melee 3.0, stances and melee animations need to be looked at. Quick melee players should also be addressed, so an animation check on first strike and subsequent strikes should be accounted for for melee. Then as a playerbase as a whole we can conclude that melee and gunplay are “seamless and fluid” with one another.

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